Author Topic: I want to do the ton......but how ?!  (Read 53320 times)

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simca1200scoupe

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on: January 20, 2016, 06:05:46 pm
Hi guys,
after introduing myself, I want to share (and ask) about my project - the goal is simple and clear: DO THE TON !

What I want is keeping the bikes reliability and smooth operation....no race engine which will die in city traffic !
Actual status:
Standard engine with PC5, BMC-air filter in original box, Hitchcock header pipe (dia 39 mm instead of 33,5 mm), GPR exhaust without cat and 1st db-eater

Planned:
Hitchcock cams (ordered, on their way to me togehter with the PC-5 file from Hitchcock), Hitchcock valve kit (already here, 43.5 mm inlet, 37 mm outlet, polished and flow optimised)....head will be disassembeld for porting and matching (myself)

and a piston....not yet ordered but made some first drawings and calculations to get 10-10.5:1 CR.....is there anybody out interested in taking part for an order for a slightly domed, lightweight forged piston with 10-10,5:1 CR for stock heads (JE Pistons probably) - minimum is 4 each to place an order with the help of Danny (Gashousegorilla)  ???

My ideas and calculations:
- with the valve size of the Hitchcock valves and 9-10 mm of lift (have to measure the valve lifting-curve when I have the cams), a nominal speed of 6500 rpm will be realistic @ 100 m/s airspeed inlet and 85% flow efficiency , resulting in 19,5 m/sec piston speed which is ok with good oil

- the 34 mm throttle is on it's limit  for these values, let's see if it works...with airspeed over 100 m/s, it would be just fine !

- 40 to 45 hp at the crank should be the realistic minimum

Ideas & hints welcome !
Best regards from Ottweiler Germany

Hardy


Otto_Ing

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Reply #1 on: January 20, 2016, 07:10:44 pm
Do you plan to do something about the chamber shape?


ace.cafe

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Reply #2 on: January 20, 2016, 07:39:35 pm
Okay, we have produced a lot of Bullets which can do The Ton, and we have extrapolated the data from our past work on the earlier engines to make a real attempt at doing it with this UCE/GT platform.

My opinion is that the aim should be to increase torque as much as is practical, and move the torque peak a little higher in rpm, and use better breathing to hold on to it as long as possible, so higher hp can be produced at higher end of the targeted rpm range.

There are various techniques to approach with, and our past behavior has been to increase breathing significantly, increase compression within the fuel limits with the combustion chamber involved. and to work with the wave tuning in the inlet and exhaust to help optimize the power in the rpm range needed to get over The Ton.

Our valve timing approach has been different than Hitchcock and most of the other UK tuners, who use relatively narrow lobe centers and large overlap periods. Our approach on valve timing is to use a later lobe center and relatively shorter overlap to extend the rpm range while retaining the lower rpm torque quite well, in conjunction with the high compression piston that works correctly with the later intake valve closing timing, so that we get the desired results. Our peak hp numbers are usually a little lower with this method, but our curve is usually broader and more conducive to enjoyment on the road, being less "peaky".

Hitchcock's typical cam profiles are quite peaky, and not everyone's cup of tea. I prefer less peaky curve with broader torque. Just a difference in preference. I'm not saying either way is "right" or "wrong", but just stating my preferences.

I can state that we have head several UCE heads on the flow bench, have analyzed the flow activity with stock valves and ports, and also with various modifications to valves and ports. As you know, we have also created an entirely new cylinder head to overcome some issues which we felt were too expensive and time consuming to do to a stock cylinder head for commercial purposes.
The point I want to make here is that we can speak with experience about what these heads can do, and where their shortcomings are, and our opinions on how to improve them, based on hard data.

Regarding your stated static compression ratio, I think that might be a little bit high, based on a stock combustion chamber and the available fuel in the US. Maybe the German fuel will withstand the higher compression than our US fuel. We aim to have a 9.5:1 static compression ratio. If you intend to cluse the intake valve much later in the cycle, then the 10.5:1 might work, if the closing is late enough.
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Otto_Ing

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Reply #3 on: January 20, 2016, 08:54:08 pm
When I saw that automatic decompressor, the first thing that shot through my mind was puting it on the intake valve and modding it somehow in a kind of centrifugal VVT.   :o ;D

Fortunately I don't have the means to make cams othervise this idea might have pained me in the head for some more time. ;D
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 08:57:48 pm by oTTo »


gashousegorilla

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Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 01:04:25 am
Hi guys,
after introduing myself, I want to share (and ask) about my project - the goal is simple and clear: DO THE TON !

What I want is keeping the bikes reliability and smooth operation....no race engine which will die in city traffic !
Actual status:
Standard engine with PC5, BMC-air filter in original box, Hitchcock header pipe (dia 39 mm instead of 33,5 mm), GPR exhaust without cat and 1st db-eater

Planned:
Hitchcock cams (ordered, on their way to me togehter with the PC-5 file from Hitchcock), Hitchcock valve kit (already here, 43.5 mm inlet, 37 mm outlet, polished and flow optimised)....head will be disassembeld for porting and matching (myself)

and a piston....not yet ordered but made some first drawings and calculations to get 10-10.5:1 CR.....is there anybody out interested in taking part for an order for a slightly domed, lightweight forged piston with 10-10,5:1 CR for stock heads (JE Pistons probably) - minimum is 4 each to place an order with the help of Danny (Gashousegorilla)  ???

My ideas and calculations:
- with the valve size of the Hitchcock valves and 9-10 mm of lift (have to measure the valve lifting-curve when I have the cams), a nominal speed of 6500 rpm will be realistic @ 100 m/s airspeed inlet and 85% flow efficiency , resulting in 19,5 m/sec piston speed which is ok with good oil

- the 34 mm throttle is on it's limit  for these values, let's see if it works...with airspeed over 100 m/s, it would be just fine !

- 40 to 45 hp at the crank should be the realistic minimum

Ideas & hints welcome !


  I think you are pretty much dead on and almost there. ;)     10.3 works for me.  I can tell you with the Bullet,  that supposedly shares the same chamber and Volume as the GT  ?   I have ran 87 pump piss with the stock chamber, domed piston, and cam combination that I am using and it didn't ping....  That is with the stock ignition timing. I'm running anywhere from 6-8 degrees advance now across my Map, and using a super grade 93... usually shell. No ping.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


ace.cafe

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Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 02:07:48 am
If it works with 10.5, that's great.  The more the merrier, if it doesn't ping.
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KD5ITM

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Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 02:12:53 am
Just outta curiosity, I use LL 100 Aviation gas in all of my show cars. What about using that gas in the GT?
2014 Continental GT 535
1979 Hurst/Olds W-30 “R” code
1967 Oldsmobile 442 W-30
1964 Volvo B18 544 Sport
1961 Willys Jeep Wagon


ace.cafe

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Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 02:30:34 am
Just outta curiosity, I use LL 100 Aviation gas in all of my show cars. What about using that gas in the GT?
Shouldn't need it  unless the compression is raised.
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KD5ITM

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Reply #8 on: January 21, 2016, 03:06:02 am
What if you had a 10.5 to 1 compression?
2014 Continental GT 535
1979 Hurst/Olds W-30 “R” code
1967 Oldsmobile 442 W-30
1964 Volvo B18 544 Sport
1961 Willys Jeep Wagon


ace.cafe

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Reply #9 on: January 21, 2016, 05:09:20 am
What if you had a 10.5 to 1 compression?
It depends on the cam timing. Maybe or maybe not. GHG says his is okay on 93.
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simca1200scoupe

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Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 09:45:39 am
Do you plan to do something about the chamber shape?
I will take the head down and measure, also against your measurements to see how much tolerances between our engines exist....than I will see if it is necessary, I would prefer not to modify the shape, just round sharp corners to reduce potential hotspots !

By the way...your idea regarding variable cam is so crazy that it really sounds good....theoretically possible for sure but much development work  :o

Compression ratio:
Well, the geometric CR is just a calculation value, many other things will influence real pressure such as cam timing and advance and air-fuel ration....so I would like to be on the high-side with CR for good efficiency and adapt the ignition advance accordingly to prevent pre-detonation.

Fuel:
LL 100 is very difficult to get in Germany and aircraft fuel is extremely high-priced here but we have 100 and 102 RON available from Shell and Aral....but the 95 or 98 RON should do the job (see above)
Best regards from Ottweiler Germany

Hardy


KD5ITM

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Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 12:16:01 pm
93 is what I usually run. LL 100 is what I run in my show cars because it has a much longer shelf life then pump gas and is ethanol free. But yes, I believe the last time I bought aviation fuel, it was about $5.30 a gallon. I don't put a ton of miles on my show cars each year. So I'm fueling up 3 to 4 times a year so I can justify the cost. Just the fact that is ethanol free is enough to justify the cost.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:18:47 pm by KD5ITM »
2014 Continental GT 535
1979 Hurst/Olds W-30 “R” code
1967 Oldsmobile 442 W-30
1964 Volvo B18 544 Sport
1961 Willys Jeep Wagon


simca1200scoupe

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Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 12:21:25 pm
You're lucky guys.....aircraft fuel is around 4€ / liter in Germany !!!!!
Best regards from Ottweiler Germany

Hardy


ace.cafe

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Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 01:00:06 pm
I will take the head down and measure, also against your measurements to see how much tolerances between our engines exist....than I will see if it is necessary, I would prefer not to modify the shape, just round sharp corners to reduce potential hotspots !

By the way...your idea regarding variable cam is so crazy that it really sounds good....theoretically possible for sure but much development work  :o

Compression ratio:
Well, the geometric CR is just a calculation value, many other things will influence real pressure such as cam timing and advance and air-fuel ration....so I would like to be on the high-side with CR for good efficiency and adapt the ignition advance accordingly to prevent pre-detonation.

Fuel:
LL 100 is very difficult to get in Germany and aircraft fuel is extremely high-priced here but we have 100 and 102 RON available from Shell and Aral....but the 95 or 98 RON should do the job (see above)

I would note that the stock GT often shows detonation issues at lower rpms, with the stock compression ratio. However, not everyone reports this, and it may vary from bike to bike.

In all of the UCE engines that I have seen, and in the few reports of the GT engines I have gotten, the piston does not come up to the proper squish distance from the head.  The stock set-up does not achieve squish or quench.
I think you will want to take care of that adjustment to attain correct squish distance if you plan to raise compression as much as you say.
 :)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 01:03:39 pm by ace.cafe »
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simca1200scoupe

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Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 02:36:14 pm
@Ace:
Sure, that's one main reason for a new piston, I will keep 1mm safety distance between piston & head but also trying to get enough CR....knocking at low rpm under high load is better than highspeed knocking...the first is easy to hear and to retard in the PC5 accordingly, but under high rpm, I don't hear it - will see what my measurements will bring out !
Best regards from Ottweiler Germany

Hardy