[gremlin]

I'm starting this thread to document the creation of "Mjölnir" a 2011 B5 with custom J&E piston and polished head with beehive valve springs (courtesy of Gas House Gorilla and Scooter Bob).

To date: "B5" has had its piston replaced with a cast AVL piston, its muffler replaced with a sportster unit, and its airbox replaced with an industrial microfiber filter from K&N ~ as well as a number of cosmetic changes .....

[gremlin]

The first milestone in this project occurred when ScooterBob cleaned up a spare cylinder and fit the full-custom piston for it.

[gremlin]

Currently, Gas House Gorilla is finishing the conversion to beehive valve springs and the full polish of the head and ports.

[gremlin]

I've been busy as well ......   

[gremlin]

The consensus being that the stock EFI won't be able to adapt to these changes in the combustion chamber ......  I've chosen to convert the bike over to MEGASQUIRT.  Specifically,  MS1 v2.2 hardware with modification for VR timing input, running MSEXTRA firmware.

  http://www.msextra.com/doc/index-ms1.html

[JVS]

Good on you mate, this will be interesting. Keep us updated.

[mattsz]

As they say over at that other forum...

[ToesNose]

Looking forward to seeing your progress Gremlin, the MEGASQUIRT sounds like a fun project that might help a lot of UCE owners 

[singhg5]

Very interesting project !

Look forward to see your ton-up B5 in very near future  .

In anyone is interested, here are a couple of very informative videos on MEGASQUIRT and its application in a car engine.

There are a few more good videos for its installation and tuning under the same youtube account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzlJSLHmgVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLYL296yC88

[gremlin]

......Look forward to see your ton-up B5 in very near future  . ........

yeah, well, I'd halfta hire a jockey ......   this old geezer ain't going over the ton on that bicycle .......

[Otto_Ing]

  and I thought all the time you are the nice guy with the hat in your avatar. 

I see a bigger issue doing the TON with the luggage crate than with the age. 

[gashousegorilla]

  Best part about that Megasquirt is that you can build it yourself... very cool Gremlin.  See if I can get to the Ooops ! store before they close 

[gashousegorilla]

   I got there and it's on the way......

[mattsz]

Order now - a free spark plug with every purchase!

Hey, wait a minute... does that say Bosch? 

[gremlin]

update:

The Microsquirt V2.2 board is coming along nicely in the planning stage.....

highlights >>

The board comes with 2 channels for injector control.  Since we only have one injector, the second channel will be repurposed for spark.

The kit comes with a board mounted MAP sensor, this will be omitted, the RE MAP sensor will be retained.

The kit includes opto-isolator circuitry for picking up timing from the primary of a coil, this will be omitted and redesigned for use with the RE pulser coil.

a handful of other parts from the kit will be surplussed <-- always have left over parts 

[gashousegorilla]

Order now - a free spark plug with every purchase!

Hey, wait a minute... does that say Bosch? 

   No It does not Matt !     That's Grandpa's special Rocket Fuel igniter .

[mattsz]

Is that for Grandpa Munster's rocket fuel, or your "rocket fuel"?   

[gremlin]

Is that for Grandpa Munster's rocket fuel, or your "rocket fuel"?   

careful whom you are calling OLD there .........

[dginfw]

Interesting project...just out of curiosity, what is the benefit of going with the Mega-squirt over the PC-V?  Cost? performance?

[High On Octane]

Interesting project...just out of curiosity, what is the benefit of going with the Mega-squirt over the PC-V?  Cost? performance?

 

The MegaSquirt is 100% fully programmable.  It is perfect for performance applications where you can eliminate almost all emission functions and tune it to do whatever you want it to do.

[gremlin]

Interesting project...just out of curiosity, what is the benefit of going with the Mega-squirt over the PC-V?  Cost? performance?

HOO is correct, also, this particular model (MS1 V2.2) comes in a handy "old-school" kit.  (no surface mount components) and can be had for ~ $170   IIRC the PC-V is twice as expensive.....

[gremlin]

here's a brief photo essay ..... I'll upload red-lines this weekend.

[dginfw]

Gotcha. Definitely a bargain compared to the PC-V
I've soldered plenty of wires, but I don't know if I'd trust my eyes to doing tiny board work like that.

[mattsz]

careful whom you are calling OLD there .........

Hey, I'm just quoting your go-fast sticker...

About the pc board pics - are you intentionally damaging the surface?

[gremlin]

............About the pc board pics - are you intentionally damaging the surface?

Yes, absolutely!    the board was designed with 2 heavy duty outputs for a pair of injection channels.  The revised firmware we will flash onto the processor will also control spark.   So, by redirecting the circuitboard trace, we are able to use the second injection drivers for running the spark coil.

The revised drawings will illustrate the change.

[gremlin]

Gotcha. Definitely a bargain compared to the PC-V
I've soldered plenty of wires, but I don't know if I'd trust my eyes to doing tiny board work like that.

As far as board work goes, this is really easy !   The kit uses all "through hole" parts (no tiny surface-mount stuff) just like back in the mid 1970's.   Except, unlike the 70's, the board is a quality glass epoxy piece with circuit plating through the holes and entirely pre-tinned.

Believe me, they don't get any easier to construct than this !

However, if you are so inclined, you can purchase a fully assembled controller (MS2 V3.57) for twice the price.

[gremlin]

external wiring diagram

[longstrokeclassic]

Even comes with the option of adding a STFIS - brilliant.

[gremlin]

circuit board over-view

[gremlin]

schematics of the "box"  pages 1-3

[gremlin]

schematics of the "box"  pages 4-6

[gashousegorilla]

circuit board over-view

 Definitely makes life easy for people wanting to do this. Thanks for all the figuring     I'm thinking you have played with one of these before.....

[gremlin]

Even comes with the option of adding a STFIS - brilliant.

 

[gremlin]

So, here is some chatter about building the board ......   

You don't need fancy equipment.  aside from a pair of snips, all you need is a soldering pencil and very thin solder - see photo

[gremlin]

Over the years I've heard lots of advice about kitbuilding ......   What I like to do is start with the smallest components that lay flat on the board, then, build up from there ......  I find it is easier to control the soldering process that way ....    Also - consider the uC crystal "Y1" in the attached close-ups.   Much easier to mount that first, then, mount the capacitors on either side of it......  the alternative would have one fishing in a fjord !

[gremlin]

After a short holiday break, I found some time to pick this back up.

A few observations:

Y1 is a fragile electromechanical device that vibrates at inhumanly fast speed.  a dab of silicone adhesive will help ensure long life.

[gremlin]

The jumpers need to be 24 AWG.

[gremlin]

a dab of red locktite is highly recommended on these fasteners.

[gremlin]

And now we begin fabbing up the conditioner circuit needed for the RE crank position sensor.....

[JVS]

Really cool stuff gremlin. Pardon my ignorance, will you mount the PCB and conditioner cct in the LH side tool box? What about the vibes? 

[gremlin]

Really cool stuff gremlin. Pardon my ignorance, will you mount the PCB and conditioner cct in the LH side tool box? What about the vibes? 

The conditioning circuit will be mounted inside the Megasquirt case, just above the main circuitboard.  I'll be dabbing the jumpers with silicone adhesive to prevent vibe-induced failures with those loose wires.

The Megasquirt will be installed in the right-side triangular box, on neoprene washers. It will be cabled to the left hand box where the stock ECU connector is.

[sonomax]

And now we begin fabbing up the conditioner circuit needed for the RE crank position sensor.....

Do you have both a crank position sensor and an ignition trigger or are they one and the same?

[gremlin]

Do you have both a crank position sensor and an ignition trigger or are they one and the same?

The crank position sensor is an input to the Megasquirt controller,  The ignition trigger (like the injector trigger) are output(s) from the Megasquirt.

[gremlin]

circuit diagram and tentative board layout for crank position sensor input conditioning circuit.

[mattsz]

I continue to have trouble pronouncing this new name... so I'm calling it Molière instead.  No jokes, please...

[gremlin]

As they say over at that other forum...

Enjoying the show ?

[mattsz]

Enjoying the show ?

More than you know...

[longstrokeclassic]

Mattsz,
What's difficult about pronouncing 'Mule Near'

[gremlin]

or ....  Me-ole-neer

[dginfw]

I've been saying "mojo-nur" in my head....
but compared to other stuff that goes on in there, it's not bad

[heloego]

Your-Ole-what? 

[gremlin]

The holidays .....  and the Triumph, have been eating up my time ~ but ~ today I carved out a bit and pawed through the "junk box" to find bits to assemble the VR conditioner circuit.

R1  the 300 ohm transmission line termination resistor ....  300 is a value that is not commonly manufactured, but, 330 was easy to find and in 1/2 watt size too.  that'll do.

R2  18 Kohm ......  another rare critter.  I built what I needed with a pair of 10K and a pair of 100K resistors in a series parallel arrangement: 
100K in series with each other = 200K
10K in series with each other = 20K
:then:
the 200K in parallel with the 20K =  18.2K   

R3 and R4 are common sizes .... easily found.

the capacitors are all common enough sizes ..... but, time was pressing so I settled with a 220 and a 100 pF in parallel to emulate C2,  and substituted a 0.15 for C4 the bypass cap.

I then got to building the circuit "dead bug" style.....  Its not pretty, and, won't win any prizes in the engineering lab,,,,,  but - there is a long tradition of hobbyist and hackers using the technique. (see photo)

The embarrassing part is when more than half way done .....   and one realizes that dyslexia has bitten yet again.  DOH.  I had flipped the board over in my head and was assembling a mirror image of what is needed.

This one goes in the trash ......   I think I'll go back to putzing with the triumph for awhile.

[gashousegorilla]

   What does the conditioner board do Gremlin, and how are you using it and etc.

[gremlin]

The crank sensor is what is known as a "Variable Reluctance" sensor (fancy words for a coil wrapped around a magnet)  When the nub of a steel wheel flys past the sensor, it momentarily disrupts the stable field around the magnet.  The coil of wire around the magnet senses the fluctuation in the magnetic field and creates an electrical impulse.

This electrical impulse is actually a doublet, first swinging in one direction ~ then switching polarity as the nub flys away from the magnetic sensor.

The VR conditioning circuit converts the raw electrical signal from the sensor into a clean digital pulse timed exactly when the signal switches polarity (when the nub is pointing exactly at the center of the sensor).

This clean digital signal becomes the reference time from which all good things (injection & spark) are created.

here are some graphics to illustrate:

[gashousegorilla]

 Ingenious... A clean and accurate way of knowing the precise location of the crank through the rotor. 

[Otto_Ing]

Interesting, why would't one use a hall sensor type which might be smaler, faster in responce and probably cheaper? ... and may deliver puls signal straight out of the box. Any advantages to the inductive (VR) sensor?

[mattsz]

..."Variable Reluctance"...

I hear a Rodney Dangerfield wife joke coming...

[gremlin]

Interesting, why would't one use a hall sensor type which might be smaler, faster in responce and probably cheaper? ... and may deliver puls signal straight out of the box. Any advantages to the inductive (VR) sensor?

setting aside the obvious, Keihin chose VR for the RE EFI ?  advantages of VR over Hall in this application ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor#Disadvantages

and then there is this bit, unashamedly stolen from WIKI:

"Although VR sensors are based on very mature technology, they still offer several significant advantages. The first is low cost - coils of wire and magnets are relatively inexpensive. Unfortunately, the low cost of the transducer is partially offset by the cost of the additional signal-processing circuitry needed to recover a useful signal. And because the magnitude of the signal developed by the VR sensor is proportional to target speed, it is difficult to design circuitry to accommodate very-low-speed signals. A given VR-sensing system has a definite limit as to how slow the target can move and still develop a usable signal. An alternative but more expensive technology is Hall effect sensor. Hall effect sensors are true zero-rpm sensors and actively supply information even when there's no transmission motion at all.

One area in which VR sensors excel, however, is in high-temperature applications. Because operating temperature is limited by the characteristics of the materials used in the device, with appropriate construction VR sensors can be made to operate at temperatures in excess of 300°C. An example of such an extreme application is sensing the turbine speed of a jet engine or engine cam shaft and crankshaft position control in an automobile."

[gremlin]

I hear a Rodney Dangerfield wife joke coming...

My wife and I were happy for twenty years. Then we met.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZOc2I-Kbfk

[gremlin]

setting aside the junk-box of parts, I decided to just order the parts needed for the VR conditioner circuit....   I mean, how expensive can they be ~ right ?   I've found pre-assembled circuits online for $40.

So I went to the DIGIKEY.COM website and entered in everything but the actual perf-board.   seven bucks.  (and that includes two extra sockets for future toys)  5 and a half dollars if you just order a single socket.

sometimes, its best just to "get-er-done".

parts on order.

[Desi Bike]

With Digikey sending you the oddball resistors are you going to change the breadboard build up to a smaller more compact board? 
This build is getting to look like my advanced amateur radio exam years ago a lot of which I've forgotten. I'm able to follow the circuit though. ..lol

[gremlin]

With Digikey sending you the oddball resistors are you going to change the breadboard build up to a smaller more compact board? 
This build is getting to look like my advanced amateur radio exam years ago a lot of which I've forgotten. I'm able to follow the circuit though. ..lol

Ham Radio ......  that uncle nobody talks about.

I've got some other size perf-board, but, I'll probably just build it up on the same size board - then - use the extra area(s) for drilling mounting holes.

[gremlin]

Digikey parts arrived this week, I love how they package these 10 cent parts individually .....   actually makes it nice for organizing the work.....

[gremlin]

so, this time I didn't cross my eyes .....  still looks ugly, but, that's what happens.  I suppose I should have washed the flux off before the photos ~

[gashousegorilla]

   Doesn't look bad Gremlin.  It reminds me of the job I had right out of high school, in a factory....  We all did everything. But we would make our own PC boards off of a print, similar to yours there. But dip the boards in a pan of flux and then into a pan of Molten solder.

[mattsz]

Any updates here?  How are "we" making out, Gremlin?

[gremlin]

Any updates here?  How are "we" making out, Gremlin?

"Life"  <--  it's what happens between lovely afternoons wrenching in the shed.

Mjolnir is waiting for time on the lift.

[mattsz]

re. that first photo... you could melt a chocolate bar in your pocket up there!

[heloego]

...or nuke the lunch the missus sent with you. 

[Narada]

re. that second photo... is that a Triumph?  And from the background, your feeling the Bern?

[gashousegorilla]

 Oh yeah...  That first picture is a lock-out  tag -out moment if I ever saw one. 

[mattsz]

Oh yeah...  That first picture is a lock-out  tag -out moment if I ever saw one. 

+1... if that thing fired up unexpectedly, he's apt to get rather dizzy!

[gremlin]

re. that second photo... is that a Triumph?  ....

Yep - I'm exorcising LUCAS, "the prince of darkness"

[gremlin]

Oh yeah...  That first picture is a lock-out  tag -out moment if I ever saw one. 

I've become very fond of kirk keys.

[gremlin]

Valentines Day weekend ......  Spent some time with my special ladies ......   Took the Triumph off the table and hoisted the Enfield for Surgery ......

[gremlin]

drained the fuel, then noticing the pinched throttle cable (2nd world QA) dismantled the top end.   

[gremlin]

The increased compression of the AVL piston was noticeable (a little) on the highway - but - it sure didn't help the  economy any....    Let's blame it on the overly-rich stock fuel maps !!!

[gremlin]

Looks like it belongs ......  a flying saucer from the 1950's .......  in a motorbike design from the 1950s.

[gremlin]

changed the oil and filter, then got her buttoned back up and ran it on the stater-motor (sans plug) until oil was cascading down the lifter tubes -----  took about 45 seconds of cranking.

[gremlin]

What the heck ......  I figure I'll add a wideband O2 sensor and fire this hammer up with the stock cams and stock computer....   I'm guessing it'll run in the safe zone.   plus it'll give more baseline info .....  AND - if it runs and pulls / well then / maybe it's a mod ANYONE can do !

[pmanaz1973]

Is that a sexy see through inspection cover I see?  Nice build all the way around.  Also loving the idea of a security camera in my garage.

[gremlin]

Is that a sexy see through inspection cover I see? .........

Yes it is !   but, given the finish on the push-rods the visual is kinda like a flat-chested girl.  (not much to see, except, dirty oil raining down)

[gashousegorilla]

Looks like it belongs ......  a flying saucer from the 1950's .......  in a motorbike design from the 1950s.

 

[gremlin]

[gashousegorilla]

What the heck ......  I figure I'll add a wideband O2 sensor and fire this hammer up with the stock cams and stock computer....   I'm guessing it'll run in the safe zone.   plus it'll give more baseline info .....  AND - if it runs and pulls / well then / maybe it's a mod ANYONE can do !

   Yeah, I think that's a better spot for the o2 .   Looking at this semi- cut up stock header I have here...   Two inlet holes near the outlet end of the header, right about were you have your new o2 hole there. They lead to a tapped down to the port .. kind of expansion chamber.  With a large space between the inner  and outer pipes in the area of the port AND around the o2 sensor threaded bung mount.    Around that stock o2 sensor mount location, and inside the inner pipe,  there is MUCH larger hole around the o2 sensor as it enters the inner pipe.   I could see perhaps, maybe some exhaust circulation going on there ....  And maybe some cooling of the exhaust gas, as it enters that chamber between the inner and outer pipes  , and back through that large hole in the inner pipe .

[gashousegorilla]

   Hahahaha !   Yeah better.    Ohooooooo.....  I like that tapper around the outer edge to !

[gremlin]

*** Holy Crap Batman ***

[mattsz]

*** Holy Crap Batman ***

Funny, I don't remember Robin ever uttering that particular exclamation, but in light of your current compression reading, I'll allow it...

[gashousegorilla]

*** Holy Crap Batman ***

  Bingo !  That gauge is working now.  Right where I thought it would be with the stock cams.  You can leave it like that and rip the tree stumps out around the yard. Or..  Get some cams, reduce that cylinder pressure some and go a lot faster 

[High On Octane]

*** Holy Crap Batman ***

How many base gaskets did you use?  Looks like 116 octane cylinder pressures.

[gashousegorilla]

How many base gaskets did you use?  Looks like 116 octane cylinder pressures.

   I figure he has got an actual measured  10 to 10.5 - 1  compression ratio now.  BUT, it still has these cams in it .....

 

[High On Octane]

   I figure he has got an actual measured  10 to 10.5 - 1  compression ratio now.  BUT, it still has these cams in it .....

 

Hmmmm.  I am often mistaken, but I thought 170psi was around 9.5:1.   

[gashousegorilla]

  Well, in a strict sense Scottie ?  But, as you know compression ratio is determined by things like deck height,  piston design , volume of the combustion chamber and etc.   And it is a part of what we see as cylinder pressure.    The other part is cam timing.... intake.    So in this case, lets call it 10.3 to 1 .  With a longer winded cam with a bit more lift    .   He should see 165 -170  psi at a "static" compression test.

[gremlin]

First fire ..... stock cams, stock computer, 93 octane non-oxygenated gas.

https://goo.gl/photos/ySNussHCtZ5Ak9tk6

[gremlin]

........  Get some cams, reduce that cylinder pressure some and go a lot faster 

Yep,  soon as my consultants are ready with their special tooling ~ I've got a set of cams ready for reman.

[High On Octane]

Nice!  Is this with the new ecu?  Or are you still working on that?

[gremlin]

I used a flux-wire splatter gun to tack the wideband bung in place, then, filleted the joint with bronze.
.
obviously, not one of my better skills .......

[gashousegorilla]

First fire ..... stock cams, stock computer, 93 octane non-oxygenated gas.

https://goo.gl/photos/ySNussHCtZ5Ak9tk6

  Pop..pop..pop..pop...pop.... growl !....  pop...pop..pop...pop.

   Hey Grem, is that with the adjustamatic  rods in there ?

Yep,  soon as my consultants are ready with their special tooling ~ I've got a set of cams ready for reman.

          I think they might be ready when you are ?

[gremlin]

Nice!  Is this with the new ecu?  Or are you still working on that?

trying to manage the changes ..... (not doing it all at once) ..... who knows? maybe the stock ECU can adapt ?

anyway .....  took the aircleaner box off, and, I'm modifying it to contain the instrumentation (wideband sensor electronics and the ECU).

The old megasquirt form factor is fitting nice and snug.

[caricabasso]

drained the fuel, then noticing the pinched throttle cable (2nd world QA) dismantled the top end.

Can I ask you how many kilometers has covered your bike?
To evaluate the amount of carbonaceous residues accumulated in the combustion chamber.
Although I do not see the inside of the cylinder head.

[Otto_Ing]

trying to manage the changes ..... (not doing it all at once) ..... who knows? maybe the stock ECU can adapt ?

anyway .....  took the aircleaner box off, and, I'm modifying it to contain the instrumentation (wideband sensor electronics and the ECU).

The old megasquirt form factor is fitting nice and snug.

Looks good the megasquirt...about same size as the EPA compliance logo... 

[gremlin]

Can I ask you how many kilometers has covered your bike?
To evaluate the amount of carbonaceous residues accumulated in the combustion chamber.
Although I do not see the inside of the cylinder head.

The dirty piston in that picture is a flattop AVL piston that was swapped into place approx 2,000 kilometers ago.  the stock piston and barrel had 6,000 kilometers on it when the AVL piston was put in.
 

[gremlin]

Looks good the megasquirt...about same size as the EPA compliance logo... 

yep, I'm thinking about simply using a couple layers of cut-up innertube as anti-vibration padding under the megasquirt.

[Otto_Ing]

yep, I'm thinking about simply using a couple layers of cut-up innertube as anti-vibration padding under the megasquirt.

I would probably use something foamy....although the megasquirt doesn't look too vib sensitive as far as I can judge from the pic. No heavy components such as big capacitors... only the connectors might pose a potential issue IMEBO.

[gremlin]

Mjolnir took me for a ride around the block a few times this afternoon  got it up to temperature (hunting idle) and then brought it home and took a video of the AFR gauge ......

https://goo.gl/photos/XFnfFJVFHYBdJAqc6

the video is 102 meg, so, don't waste your mobile bandwidth on it (make sure you are at a hot-spot).

kept glancing down while riding about .....  it really looks like ANY throttle at all drives the program rich.  with a steady cruise below 40 on flat ground it wants to run lean ~ but ~ if you are keeping up with traffic, she runs on the rich side.

[gashousegorilla]

  Looks like you got the narrow band o2 sensor working.      A bit more torque now ?   That's a nice gauge ,will it fit in the Mil/low fuel gauge location Gremlin ? 

[gremlin]

Yep, this run was with the stock ECU -and- stock O2 sensor........   The wideband meter is too big to fit the dashpanel.

I've not grabbed a handful of throttle yet .....  rings are still seating.  I pulled the wideband adapted exhaust manifold and there was engine oil sitting at the base of the gasket.

Cleaned it all up and put the original manifold back in -- I feel confident that the stock controls won't starve the engine for fuel.  I'm going to run it in as-is this season.  Next winter I'll install cams and the stiffer pushrods.

First impression, based solely on "feel" and "memory" i'd say this modification (domed piston and polished head) is good for an additional 6.92837 horsepower 

And it sounds better too ..... 

[Otto_Ing]

6.92837 hp, your bottom must be really sensitive gremlin 

[gremlin]

6.92837 hp, your bottom must be really sensitive gremlin 

And it sounds better too ..... 

[Otto_Ing]

Sounds a lot different on the video than a stock bullet. Agressive! Like a Mjölnir! 

[gashousegorilla]

Yep, this run was with the stock ECU -and- stock O2 sensor........   The wideband meter is too big to fit the dashpanel.

I've not grabbed a handful of throttle yet .....  rings are still seating.  I pulled the wideband adapted exhaust manifold and there was engine oil sitting at the base of the gasket.

Cleaned it all up and put the original manifold back in -- I feel confident that the stock controls won't starve the engine for fuel.  I'm going to run it in as-is this season.  Next winter I'll install cams and the stiffer pushrods.

First impression, based solely on "feel" and "memory" i'd say this modification (domed piston and polished head) is good for an additional 6.92837 horsepower 

And it sounds better too ..... 

  Cool, sounds like a plan.       Ummmm ?..... You know, I bet your not too far off the mark with that prediction, thinkin' about it.    After you get it broken in. Weigh yourself and the bike and try this here calculator.  I swear, it was pretty much dead on, when I tried it before I put the bike on the Dyno....

 http://www.060calculator.com/

[Otto_Ing]

Very steep and long hill, full speed up, gps read out - time, hight difference and total weight - can be recalculated into power.

I used this method during my active cycle racing years.  ...may not work so well with motorcycles due to gearing issues however

[gashousegorilla]

 Oh gawd oTTo.... just try it, it's fun !      It worked well for me with a motorcycle on level ground.       Run your bike up to 60 mph and record the time.  Enter  "RWD" ,  "Manual" transmission and you fully geared up  and your bikes weight.   Then punch in HP numbers , until the HP numbers match your time.  My number  came out pretty damn close to the same , as what I found at the wheel as on the Dyno.   

[Otto_Ing]

The 0-60 method works for sure no doubts about it, half the time = double the hp....it was hard to reach 60 on a bicycle though   

[gremlin]

Rode Mjolnir to work this chilly morning .....  25 miles on the highway at -1C

WOW .....  what a difference.

with the stock piston it was all she could do to keep up with traffic, the AVL piston was a bit of improvement .....  but the Scooter-Bob piston and GHG's port/polish & valving have truly made this bike competent in the morning rush.

where before (AVL piston) I would need to hold the throttle at 2/3 to keep up with the 60+ MPH traffic ......  this morning I was flying right along at 1/3 throttle !

The sweet spot has moved from 50 MPH to 70 MPH.   I'm looking forward to seeing what affect this has had on MPG.  I expect there will be a respectable improvement there as well.

All-in-All .......  A very nice package.  the stock computer seems to be keeping up just fine (even with the O2 sensor still operational).

It may be awhile before I proceed to modifying the CAMS and Computer...

[Otto_Ing]

Gremlin, that does sounds like a good improvment with stock CAM's that is. What would you attribute the main chunk of  the improvement to? Increased compression?

[Ice]

 Gremlin would you mind testing for ping with 87 and 89 ocatne gasoline ?
The tumble and squish of the piston head combo look extremely promising of tolerating lesser fuels. Something which would give great peace of mind when traveling if premium were unavailable at a fuel stop on a long trip. 

[gashousegorilla]

Rode Mjolnir to work this chilly morning .....  25 miles on the highway at -1C

WOW .....  what a difference.

with the stock piston it was all she could do to keep up with traffic, the AVL piston was a bit of improvement .....  but the Scooter-Bob piston and GHG's port/polish & valving have truly made this bike competent in the morning rush.

where before (AVL piston) I would need to hold the throttle at 2/3 to keep up with the 60+ MPH traffic ......  this morning I was flying right along at 1/3 throttle !

The sweet spot has moved from 50 MPH to 70 MPH.   I'm looking forward to seeing what affect this has had on MPG.  I expect there will be a respectable improvement there as well.

All-in-All .......  A very nice package.  the stock computer seems to be keeping up just fine (even with the O2 sensor still operational).

It may be awhile before I proceed to modifying the CAMS and Computer...

  That's good to hear Gremlin. Very happy you are enjoying it.    Same intake and exhaust set up, correct ?


 

Gremlin, that does sounds like a good improvment with stock CAM's that is. What would you attribute the main chunk of  the improvement to? Increased compression?

  Why ?..... That guy must have put a fairing on that bike !    I'm thinking better valve train control.... compression....  a  lower Reynolds number.

Gremlin would you mind testing for ping with 87 and 89 ocatne gasoline ?
The tumble and squish of the piston head combo look extremely promising of tolerating lesser fuels. Something which would give great peace of mind when traveling if premium were unavailable at a fuel stop on a long trip. 

  Ummmmm.... I think it just might be ?   I heard of a guy who ran lawn mower 87 pump piss with that piston , stock ignition timing and no Ping ?!       

  That bike did however have cams in it, and ran lower cylinder pressure though.  That same guy ran that same compression ratio, with the same cylinder pressure , with the stock cams, however with a different chamber design  and to promote tumble and swirl, 93 was used... No ping.

 

[gremlin]

Gremlin would you mind testing for ping with 87 and 89 ocatne gasoline ?
The tumble and squish of the piston head combo look extremely promising of tolerating lesser fuels. Something which would give great peace of mind when traveling if premium were unavailable at a fuel stop on a long trip.

Funny you should ask ......  Mjolnir was down to about 1/3 tank of the original 93 no-ox and I topped it up this morning (first thing) with 87 octane regular.

no ping.

[gremlin]

Gremlin, that does sounds like a good improvment with stock CAM's that is. What would you attribute the main chunk of  the improvement to? Increased compression?

I can only report on my findings ......  as additional conversions are performed, and, those individual results are tallied ~ then maybe a pattern will appear.

Having said that, Theory does indicate the higher CR should be more efficient.

[Otto_Ing]

  Why ?..... That guy must have put a fairing on that bike !    I'm thinking better valve train control.... compression....  a  lower Reynolds number.
 

AHA, got ya, fairing it was... 

I'am too interested in the pinging experiment. What squish distance did you set up?

Would you have ping before the conversion?

[gremlin]

  That's good to hear Gremlin. Very happy you are enjoying it.    Same intake and exhaust set up, correct ?

Yes.  same filter, pipe, and (harley) silencer.

[gremlin]

AHA, got ya, fairing it was... 

I'am too interested in the pinging experiment. What squish distance did you set up?

Would you have ping before the conversion?

Here's what I have to calculate it ....

Piston deck (around dome) was 0.029 inch below at TDC.
standard MLS head gasket
head is stock (and SHINEY !)

[Otto_Ing]

Here's what I have to calculate it ....

Piston deck (around dome) was 0.029 inch below at TDC.
standard MLS head gasket
head is stock (and SHINEY !)

Cool! So squish in the 0,05" area, quite a bit smaller than the 0,1" on the GT. Good information! Thanks. 

Really cool bear box on your bike! 

[Ice]

  That's good to hear Gremlin. Very happy you are enjoying it.    Same intake and exhaust set up, correct ?


 

  Why ?..... That guy must have put a fairing on that bike !    I'm thinking better valve train control.... compression....  a  lower Reynolds number.


  Ummmmm.... I think it just might be ?  I heard of a guy who ran lawn mower 87 pump piss with that piston , stock ignition timing and no Ping ?!       

  That bike did however have cams in it, and ran lower cylinder pressure though.  That same guy ran that same compression ratio, with the same cylinder pressure , with the stock cams, however with a different chamber design  and to promote tumble and swirl, 93 was used... No ping.

 I know that guy ! 

 I hear that he and Gremlin are among the members of the honorable order of the absence of ping society and that the club is reputedly growing.
 

 

[gashousegorilla]

I know that guy ! 

 I hear that he and Gremlin are among the members of the honorable order of the absence of ping society and that the club is reputedly growing.
 

    You know ?   I heard tell of a guy, who might could have two of them UFO  swirly high corn-pressing domes in his rigs !      hehehehehe 

Cool! So squish in the 0,05" area, quite a bit smaller than the 0,1" on the GT. Good information! Thanks. 

   Well that makes two of us oTTo !    I'm a wee bit closer to a mil     

[Otto_Ing]

Well that makes two of us oTTo !    I'm a wee bit closer to a mil     

Ya, I should buy a mill. Than I won't need to beg so much my friends or ask some VIP permission to use one.   

[gashousegorilla]

Ya, I should buy a mill. Than I won't need to beg so much my friends or ask some VIP permission to use one.   

  Hahahahaha !  I hear ya.   I got one around the corner, but it's reserved for cam profiling    However..... WHY would I want to go and do THAT, I don't have a GT ?      And how else could I prove the theory that good action, tumble/swirl and compression in the chamber are WAY more important then the effects of minor squish modification ?   I just plunked mine in at the stock deck height, stock base and head gasket.... And guess what ?  It's don't ping ?!    Certainly nothing wrong with tightening up your deck height, added compression and etc.... to a limit?   But.... Now I know after 5 years of testing and tuning on this five hundred motor, with different  compression ratios, and piston combinations, never having ping with all that we tried.  A guy could plunk that thing in at the stock deck height, and not worry about it so much.  Of course.... if they wanted to spend all the extra down time and money on machining and shaving and what not ?...  Go head ?    You might get an extra half a horse with this combination....

[Otto_Ing]

I'm not disagreeing. Stock deck hight seems to differ though quite a bit on the GT, and might need a bit of adjusting even if a domed piston were to be used. JMO. Or?

[gashousegorilla]

I'm not disagreeing. Stock deck hight seems to differ though quite a bit on the GT, and might need a bit of adjusting even if a domed piston were to be used. JMO. Or?

   I hear ya.  Could be oTTo ?  And I won't know for sure until I try . But I suspect that the Dome or a " more active chamber" would.   I'm sure there ARE variations, yours seems to be Maybe ONE of them.  Or the fuel where you live in Europe.... don't know for sure ?  I can say that most of the 500 hundred's that I or we have seen or heard about, are pretty damn close to that deck height. So, a cushion built in with the piston if you will ... at least to 1 mil. down the hole.

  Something IS up in your chamber I think. You've done all the right stuff.. fuel changes and timing and air/fuel adjustments and such it seems.  I'll venture a guess if I can ?    Your compression is low, you have more displacement, soup bowl piston and a larger throttle body, YOUR  piston is WAY down in the hole, you have a larger intake valve.... A lazy chamber I think ? 

[Ice]

    You know ?   I heard tell of a guy, who might could have two of them UFO  swirly high corn-pressing domes in his rigs !      hehehehehe 

 Does the swirly force amplify when two of 'em are flying in loose formation ?
 

[gashousegorilla]

Does the swirly force amplify when two of 'em are flying in loose formation ?
 

   Why... I'm not sure ?!   But apparently so.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o42xx5vxT4U

[Ice]

 The thunder sound I was expecting has more of GrrAHhhhhhhh on the over rev 

[gremlin]

I'm so happy with how this bike runs ......   I took a trip up to Cabelas in Rogers, and, opened it up on the way back.   

87 MPH tucked in.

It runs with the bulls on the highway now.  Used to be I had to avoid the left lane(s) ..... not anymore.

[gashousegorilla]

I'm so happy with how this bike runs ......   I took a trip up to Cabelas in Rogers, and, opened it up on the way back.   

87 MPH tucked in.

It runs with the bulls on the highway now.  Used to be I had to avoid the left lane(s) ..... not anymore.

    Nice !  Was that with or without the box ?   Spark Taser or no Taser ?

[gremlin]

No taser on Mjolnir  (the BMW has been keeping me occupied)

but, the Triumph has been tasered for 2 years now......

[Narada]

I've been wondering about a higher output coil to stay with the recommended or even larger spark gap. That would be like a Taser.  Works good on cars.

[gremlin]

just put a DC-DC booster on the supply and set it for 16 volts.

A side benefit is it'll start even if you are cranking hard and dropping the battery volts to 8 ......

[gashousegorilla]

just put a DC-DC booster on the supply and set it for 16 volts.

A side benefit is it'll start even if you are cranking hard and dropping the battery volts to 8 ......

  Weak anemic charging system and wiring harness.  Those yellow headlight blues at the end of a days riding.  Sputters and misfires , shitty idle and etc.   For performance....  Wider gap with higher compression and rich  AFR's, cleaner and better burn.  An improvement that can be felt.    Brilliant Gremlin.

[gremlin]

quick sketch

[Narada]

Thanks Gremlin, so I just need a DC to DC booster to put on the supply side and set for 16v output. 
I'm seeing them on the internet for anywhere from $1.39 to $88.20. I'll have to look into that a little later.

First the piston and head job.  Work is in progress.

[gremlin]

......First the piston and head job.  Work is in progress.

You will be pleased.

[gashousegorilla]

   I'll get you some pictures of that install Narada.... If I can get this damn Iphone to upload !    Some reason ,it is acting up on me today ?

[gashousegorilla]

    Alright,needed an up date.   Anyway, first a shot of a BPR6ES, .035 gap with the Taser after a hundred mile gaunt today. It's about perfect, and running slightly colder then the 5...obviously.    But either would do for ME. That's with Mid-range 91 octane.  You gentleman  running the higher cylinder pressure without the cams, will likely do better with a heat range in the 7-8 area.   And I think that is what Gremlin is running now ?    Anyway... that's the heat range I used WITHOUT cams and the same Cylinder pressure. 

[gashousegorilla]

   Some shots of the "Taser" or voltage booster with the bridge rectifier.  I put it where my roller sensor USE to be.  I eliminated that when it crapped out, and "cheated" it out with a voltage divider.

 

[gashousegorilla]

   And don't be like me.  Follow Gremlins clear instructions about applying copious amounts of clear silicon around that Coil  " Toroid".   I did not !     LOL !   It will vibrate an intermittently short out on the case or cover, and blow a fuse..... and make you scratch your head for a while.      After my NOT following instructions, I coated that entire thing in clear silicone !  LOL !   And after at least a couple hundred miles, I'm very good. 

[gashousegorilla]

  Ah...beats watching TV at night. 

[gremlin]

Sweeeeeet !!!   Mjolinar is getting CAMS  !!!

[Bert Remington]

Questions WRT Taser:

* Is 3A @ 16V (48W) booster output power sufficient?  If not, what is the recommended power?

* Would an electrolytic capacitor on the +16 booster output improve ignition function?  If so, would you suggest size.

* The function of the KBPC5010 is to protect the +16 booster output circuit from ignition coil ringing -- correct?

I am going to use this circuit on my 2016 C5.  I was planning on installing an MSD MC-2 on my BMW R1100RT.  I prefer this solution -- smaller, cheaper and probably just as good performance.  Thanks for sharing.

[turbosam]

awesome thread.!!
following it to the T.
thinking of copying it on the thunderbird 500(UCE500 open loop ECU )
Any idea, whats the wattage of the stock coil, and how much boosting of voltage, the coil can comfortably take with NGK iridium plugs .
i am in to Long distance continuous riding across the temperature range.

[Bert Remington]

turbosam -- its been a crooked road but I'm closing in on a final "Taser" solution (eg, yesterday I ordered a Fuzeblocks FZ-1 which I should have done two months ago instead of failing to make my own equivalent).  I estimated the maximum coil current in this post: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,26002.0.html  I plan on measuring the actual current this week.  Hopefully my estimate is correct or else I buy and mount a bigger DC-to-DC convertor...just another bend in the road.

I am using the RE coil with an NGK BPR6ES (7131) spark plug and an MSD wire and boot.  I'll keep stock gap at first and then open it to GHG's 0.035.

WRT to boosting voltage, I think Gremlin's 16V is correct because the ECU is still switching the coil current and higher voltage means higher wattage so 15% over maximum battery voltage seems safe.

WRT to "Taser" reliability, I'm including a DPDT bypass switch to return to stock connectivity.

[suitcasejefferson]

Wow. Went from 2016 to 2018. Most of the discussion seemed to be centered around the fuel injection. I have to wonder why you didn't go with a carb conversion instead. Mine works great. Much better than the stock EFI.

On a couple of other forums I belong to, everything is modern and EFI. The more computers the better. I figured RE enthusiasts would be more carburetor friendly. It seems strange to buy a copy of a VERY vintage bike, then stick modern computer stuff on it. The UCE Enfields only came with EFI because of the EPA. Otherwise they would still have carburetors.

[wildbill]

how are you -suitcasejefferson its been a while

[turbosam]

Wow. Went from 2016 to 2018. Most of the discussion seemed to be centered around the fuel injection. I have to wonder why you didn't go with a carb conversion instead. Mine works great. Much better than the stock EFI.


On a couple of other forums I belong to, everything is modern and EFI. The more computers the better. I figured RE enthusiasts would be more carburetor friendly. It seems strange to buy a copy of a VERY vintage bike, then stick modern computer stuff on it. The UCE Enfields only came with EFI because of the EPA. Otherwise they would still have carburetors.

Bulls eye ..!
Only concern is , now my bike has open loop EFI .
Experienced indian workshop guys have difference of opinion about the carb conversion .
Some suggest just replace the fueling part with the carburettor and you are sorted.you can have simplicity of carb and refinement of  256+ point ignition points as per load, speed and temperature ...From ECU


Some say just replacing the fueling system with carb , causes problems in the long run ..
they recommend replacing harness, stator,rotor,trigger wheel , alternator,CDi ,coil --- in short fit the entire carb bike setup ....thats expensive, labour extensive ..and will have only two ignition curves.

and i don't know the real answer ..

[Bert Remington]

My old school dragster friends are carb guys but they love their trouble-free EFI tow trucks.  The younger crowd is more electronics-oriented so EFI is more common.  And road course guys are almost all EFI with a MAF, just like my track Mustang.  Reliable and flexible.

Like most of us, my training and experiences lead in preferred directions.  For me that's electronics and closed-loop systems.  I have difficulty comprehending mechanical and hydraulic systems.  For example, I can tune a suspension but a 4-link diagram baffles me.

I keep returning to Scotty Brown's "canvas".  If you're a carb guy, then the RE's great fun to play with.  If you're an EFI guy, then the RE's great fun to play with.  If you're an all-around guy like GHG, then the RE's great fun to play with.  And this forum is a wonderful place to learn and share.  Thank you CMW.