Author Topic: Electronic vs points & condenser.  (Read 13482 times)

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solg

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on: November 28, 2015, 05:59:58 pm
So, what's the skinny?Is there a marked difference switching from points to an electronic ignition unit?
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ


Ice

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Reply #1 on: November 28, 2015, 06:18:05 pm

It depends on the electronics and what you need them for. 

 Electronics are pretty much set and forget. Great for the rider who loathes to mess with points ignition or wishes to dispense with the maintenance that goes along with them.

 Electronics can provide the spark energy and timing curves needed in high performance applications. So can a properly modded and set up points ignition.

 One of my bikes has IDS Power Arc ignition in it. Spendy but good.
And if the charging system fails and I have to limp home on battery power it will continue to fire with as little as 4 volts.

 For our purposes there is no performance gains to be had from electronic ignitions only convenience..at a price. 

 
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Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #2 on: November 28, 2015, 06:26:49 pm
Both my indian 'iron' Bullets - a 350 and a 500 run their original points systems. My Triumph Trident, although unused for many years, has three sets of points. My Honda CB500T has two sets of points. All my Tiger Cubs have points. I could go on, but you should see a pattern here. I would, however, fit, say a Boyer system if I was rebuilding a machine and the ATU, points back plate, condenser etc were all missing or badly worn, as there is little difference in price between the two complete set ups bought new. I also recently had a Honda 500 four in because it was running rough and misfiring. The points and all other ignition components were like new, but the owner handed me an electronic ignition system he wanted me to fit, to 'fix' it. I fixed it by taking out his resistor plugs, which, in conjunction with his resistor plug caps turned out to be the cause of all his problems. Ordinary plugs provided a cure. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, has always been my approach. If a points system is in good shape and set up correctly, I don't see what there is to be gained by ripping it out and replacing it with an electronic system - the only exception for me is the self generating, crankshaft fitted types for the Bullets, which we have on our racers, as it is possible to get much more precise timing, without having to go through all the backlash in the train of gears normally used to spin the distributor - or magneto on these machines. I once strobed an 11 degree fluctuation here on one magneto equipped machine, which would still have been present if it could have been fitted with a Boyer.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 06:31:10 pm by Bullet Whisperer »


solg

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Reply #3 on: November 28, 2015, 07:53:54 pm
My bike has had the Ace Fireball,performance treatment and while  I was using a Power Arc unit, I always had a hard time starting the bike. (After started it ran just fine) then, all I did was to put the points back in and it now starts on the 1st kick most of the time.  I like everything about the Power Arc unit. It is accurate, everything fits behind the points cover, and the unit has 2 separate adjustable timing curves. My thinking is.
Plan A:To get this Power Arc unit programmed properly.If I can find someone who has their timing curve mapped out. Preferably from someone with a Boyer Unit. (I hear they run well.)I can plug that info into the power arc.( probably not that simple right?)
So, plan B:to abandon the Power Arc and stick with points.
I like plan A better though!
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ


Ice

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Reply #4 on: November 28, 2015, 08:43:05 pm
 I apologize if you know this already. There are two "tricks" you can use with the power arc. Ground the timing retard wire for start up and leave the ignition off during the priming kick and turn it on only after you are over the compression hump of TDC.

 If neither of those work you might want to talk to Gary at IDS about programming for your power arc.

 I think PA beats Boyer by being not voltage sensitive and it gives those lovely fat blue sparks dunnit ? :)

 That said a well looked after points ignition is a thing of beauty too.
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solg

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Reply #5 on: November 29, 2015, 01:28:11 pm
yes, I've used that starting routine. Ive talked to Gary as well. I came away from that conversation thinking it was either operator error or a maladjusted carb. neither explain why, simply switching back to points solved the problem.
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ


Ice

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Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 01:53:15 pm
  That makes no sense.  < mystified, scratching head >
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solg

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Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 05:42:12 pm
  That makes no sense.  < mystified, scratching head >
It makes sense to me. It tells me the timing is off on the power arc
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ


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Reply #8 on: November 29, 2015, 06:08:27 pm
It makes sense to me. It tells me the timing is off on the power arc

Something really is off with the powerarc. I had the same starting problem as you did when I had it on. I switched to the boyer....problem solved.

Now, there are several people who do not have this problem....and if was to venture a guess perhaps they dont have high compression like we do in the fireballs. 

Difficult starting was the main reason I switched to 91 octane from E85. I attributed the difficult starting to E85 alone, not realizing that the powerarc was probably the bigger reason it just would not start.


Ice

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Reply #9 on: November 29, 2015, 06:10:27 pm
 You never struck me as the sort to half axx things so I am sure you set it up correctly. That would only leave programming as the possible cause in timing error.  Have you used a degree wheel and timing light on it yet ? Curious to know the results.
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solg

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Reply #10 on: November 29, 2015, 09:22:35 pm
I have a print out of the power arc curve? What I need is to find out what the Boyer curve looks like.
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ


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Reply #11 on: November 30, 2015, 03:20:30 am
You never struck me as the sort to half axx things so I am sure you set it up correctly. That would only leave programming as the possible cause in timing error.  Have you used a degree wheel and timing light on it yet ? Curious to know the results.

Ice: It was all done by Chumma. The first (with the E85 piston) time it was timed at somewhere in the dwell zone of TDC before the head was put in place. Subsequently adjustments were made and the degree wheel was used. We did try it with the white wire grounded and ungrounded. Neither made any difference at all. 

Later when I converted to piston for 91 octane, I followed the same procedure i.e. timed it exactly as above before the head was bolted on. It got a little easier with pump gas (jetting for the fireballs is pretty established). It still was never an easy start.



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Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 03:22:23 am

Ice: It was all done by Chumma. The first (with the E85 piston) time it was timed at somewhere in the dwell zone of TDC before the head was put in place. Subsequently adjustments were made and the degree wheel was used. We did try it with the white wire grounded and ungrounded. Neither made any difference at all.  It took us hours to get it to start the first time....at one point it started and blew the carb off the manifold.

Later when I converted to piston for 91 octane, I followed the same procedure i.e. timed it exactly as above before the head was bolted on. It got a little easier with pump gas (jetting for the fireballs is pretty established). It still was never an easy start....until I installed the boyer.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 03:27:36 am by 1 Thump »


Ice

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Reply #13 on: November 30, 2015, 08:03:27 am
Brother Thump I love a mystery and and wouldn't mind the challenge of sorting the whole thing out if you'd like to part with it.
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solg

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Reply #14 on: November 30, 2015, 01:40:52 pm
Thump, that's pretty much how I tuned it also. The problem is no mystery, the programing is off. Chumma now has a programmer. My thinking is, if I could find the proper timing curve, something like the Boyer (I'm told that unit has worked out well with a Fireball ) This would make dialing it in easier for Chumma.
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ