Author Topic: No thump Himalayan  (Read 19232 times)

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malky

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Reply #30 on: November 27, 2015, 09:54:03 pm
If my memory serves me right it was a 500 Rotax engine in the Jawa, same as what was used in BrItish Army Armstrong 500s. The last of the 2stroke MZ's were made in Turkey and badged Kanuni. The MZ name was bought by a Malaysian company who made 4 strokes ranging from 125 to the parallel twin 1000s. The 1000s was a very competent bike, and good quality, they didn't sell.
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Otto_Ing

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Reply #31 on: November 27, 2015, 10:02:24 pm
The 500 ohc I have in mind looked like this. It was a parallel twin and had those huuuuuge drum brakes. It was a jawa engine developed in the 50ies.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 10:18:58 pm by Otto »


malky

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Reply #32 on: November 27, 2015, 10:20:44 pm
That's much older and highly desirable. The one I remember was a "parts bin" bike
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Rattlebattle

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Reply #33 on: November 27, 2015, 10:34:22 pm
That's a nice Jawa. I used to own  Jawa 350 twin that was basically like the ones now imported to the UK by David Angel of F2 Motorcycles. I nearly bought one if the new ones but in the end opted for my UCE instead. My Jawa was the smoothest bike I've owned (about 30 in all), except the BMW K75S I owned years later. It handled really well too. As has been said, the frame and cycle parts were later used to house a Rotax 500 motor, to create a poor man's (Harris) Matchless 500 which had the same basic motor but was a lot more expensive. I've also owned a CZ125, to keep my then P&J BSA Lightening pristine and, later on an MZ Supa 5, another good bike that was as trouble free as the other E European bikes and about as quick as the Jawa, but with much nicer crank cases. They must have been subsidised by the E German government.
If I were in the market for a genuine off road capable trail bike now I would opt for the current CCM. It uses the same 450cc motor that was in the recent G series BMWs, is handbuilt and uses a bonded frame. The whole bike is designed with easy maintenance in mind and is very light. It's a bit pricey for what it is but it is a genuine off road capable machine.
I've always liked the look of the XT500 but if it were me I'd opt for the road based derivative, the SR500. Yamaha are now importing a 400cc version into the UK, but it is way too expensive for what it is and won't sell many unless they cut the price.
I can't really see the Himalayan doing much here; other manufacturers already make that sort of bike and I don't believe RE will succeed with a "me too" model. Given the bhp per litre (claimed) of the new bike I'd be amazed if it were a long stroke (in the technical, not relative sense).
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malky

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Reply #34 on: November 28, 2015, 08:17:12 am
I agree there are others making that sort of bike, but where they all fall down for my use, is their pathetic fuel capacity. The last trailie I had was a Kawasaki klx 250. 7 litre tank. My mate had a very capable DRz 400 Suzuki 10 litre tank. 450 KTM 9 litre tank g450x BMW 6.8 litres. If you're using these seriously off road the " on road " mpg is literally halved. So by the limitation of their fuel carrying capacity none of the bikes mentioned could be termed as an adventure bike, just my thoughts. :) Incedently my XT  had an aftermarket 25 litre tank, I bumped into a German guy while travelling, with a 38 litre " saddle tank " fitted to his xt. The problem with the new crop of trail bikes is by their very design, ( venting for the cooling system etc ) it's very difficult to get a bigger tank to fit. I'm keeping an open mind regarding the Himalayan, so here's hoping it meets my expectations. :)
I was Molly Sugdens bridesmaid.

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Rattlebattle

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Reply #35 on: November 28, 2015, 10:15:56 am
I hope the Himalyan works out for RE too; it'll be interesting to see what the production model actually looks like.

Re tank capacity the current CCM is quite good; I can't remember now whether the fuel tank at the rear of the bike is the main one or an auxiliary one, but the range is pretty good. The engine is de-tuned (or I should say retuned) compared to the BMW original and is apparently very frugal. There are seat height and suspension length options so the bike may be tailored to suit the rider. If I were into serious adventure riding trips I'd seriously consider one.
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JohnDL

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Reply #36 on: November 28, 2015, 10:53:11 am
I think most of Royal Enfield's export bikes are bought by customers who want the unique low revving/high torque thump of the current lineup.

If RE are going to enter the mainstream short stroke/higher revving market, in my opinion, they'll have a hard time competing with the established Japanese makes and also what's coming out of China.

I know people will equate Chinese bikes with poor quality, but the British bike industry went under as the management laughed at the bikes coming out of Japan at the time.

These bikes are both priced priced at the same level as the Enfield:
http://www.swmmotorcycles.co.uk/models/gm440-r

John
 


SteveThackery

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Reply #37 on: November 28, 2015, 11:25:01 am
There seems to be some technical confusion in that report.

The overhead cam and balancer shaft have nothing at all to do with the exhaust note.  The so-called "thump" of our RE is solely due to its low revving nature.

RE can choose whatever rev range they like for the new engine.  If it is the same displacement and only develops around the same power, then it need only rev like our current engines do and so could perfectly easily keep that "thump".

If it's going to be a smaller displacement then it will almost certainly end up revving higher to achieve the same power.

If that happens then I'm outa here.  There are plenty of FAR better single cylinder engines already out there than anything RE are likely to build.  The only downside is that they are all somewhat higher revving, which has always put me off. 

Having seen the insides of my engine, it looks like the Indians are a long way behind the Chinese, never mind the Japanese, Europeans and Americans, in terms of manufacturing quality.  So if we lose that low revving nature, then the only reason for me to stick with RE has gone.  I'd be gutted.
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gizzo

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Reply #38 on: November 28, 2015, 02:29:08 pm
If I were looking for a quirky ADV bike I'd look at the swm superdual. Specs look good: 600 single, 19 litre tank, quality suspension and looks really good. Or just play it safe and go the DR650. I just can't see a RE apppealing to the ADV  crowd. But, good luck to them.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #39 on: November 28, 2015, 02:47:48 pm
The OHC and counterbalancer are, IMO, measures to please the reviewers and meet public expectations.
The reviews of Enfields in the last 5-10 years have all included negative reports of vibration levels. So, I think that this spawned the counterbalancer.
The general public seems to equate OHC with modern performance engines, and they seem to expect it. Never mind that the pushrod system is quite capable up to, and above, any rpms that this powerplant is going to rev to. That doesn't seem to matter. If you read many blog posts about RE, they commonly mention about how RE is far behind the technology with their pushrod valve train. They want 4-valve OHC designs, or at least they think that they want those things, mostly because they read the other manufacturers have them.

So, what does this all mean?
IMO, it seems pretty clear that this is a "me too" effort, which attempts to move closer to the mainstream market. In doing so, it blends in with the rest of the crowd, probably at the lower end of the crowd. If this trend continues, the only way to tell an RE from anything else will be the elephant trunk logo on the tank.

But, we must remember that this  is the goal of the owner, to make the company very big. To do that, it inherently requires losing the unique soul of the product. It requires it because it has to appeal to the broad range of the market, and it can't have the limited appeal of the niche market anymore. I think we need to brace ourselves for what is to come.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 02:50:11 pm by ace.cafe »
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Farmer_John

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Reply #40 on: November 28, 2015, 03:19:54 pm
This may come across wrong, it may not be a popular opinion.  But I'm going to say it anyway.

A lot of our American (and Brit and Aussie) reaction to the developing news of the mothership's endeavors is based solely on  the journalistic skills of the Indian press.

They may write in english, but it's certainly not western english and all seem to be written by people not really connected to the motorcycle industry at all.  And honestly, I think the mothership adds to the weird hype surrounding the Himalayan and RE news in general.

And I only have one thing to say in regards to ADV bikes:  KLR650.  Nobody does the do it all bike better than that.
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Farmer_John

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Reply #41 on: November 28, 2015, 03:27:08 pm
If my memory serves me right it was a 500 Rotax engine in the Jawa, same as what was used in BrItish Army Armstrong 500s. The last of the 2stroke MZ's were made in Turkey and badged Kanuni. The MZ name was bought by a Malaysian company who made 4 strokes ranging from 125 to the parallel twin 1000s. The 1000s was a very competent bike, and good quality, they didn't sell.

You are correct with the Rotax powered MuZs.  I sold them in the mid 90s and stocked them all...until we had to basically give them away.  Nice bikes.  Great engine.

We did sell a few of the Yamaha powered Skorpions.  THOSE were great little sports bikes and I'd love to have one now. 

My recollection though was of former eastern block design and build, not asian based.  Could be wrong though...
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malky

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Reply #42 on: November 28, 2015, 04:02:52 pm
Bought in 1996 by the Malaysian Hong Leong Group. Who withdrew financial support in 2008. I think they were still built at Zschopau , under the Asian owners.
I was Molly Sugdens bridesmaid.

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Farmer_John

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Reply #43 on: November 28, 2015, 04:43:05 pm
Bought in 1996 by the Malaysian Hong Leong Group. Who withdrew financial support in 2008. I think they were still built at Zschopau , under the Asian owners.

OK.  My last recollection was of an 850 twin powered by the Yamaha TDM850 engine.  That bike should have done well.
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malky

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Reply #44 on: November 28, 2015, 05:21:28 pm
Do you mean this?  MZ 1000 sf special.
I was Molly Sugdens bridesmaid.

Spontaneity is the cure for best laid plans.
‘S Rioghal Mo Dhream