Author Topic: About to try to stem the head gasket oil leak...  (Read 9807 times)

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jest2dogs

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on: August 21, 2008, 07:57:26 am
Wish me luck. I have been experiencing a long term oil leak at the head and recently experienced exhaust leaks and odd running (bad gas?) Since I have to take the exhaust off anyway, thought it a good time to "go for it" and repair the gasket situation.

I will be putting in Gasket #4! It will be a stock gasket, and being the belt-and-suspender type, I plan on coating it, both sides, with brush-on copper gasket sealant (no, I won't "goop it on"). The head was lightly lapped last time to reduce deformities and the dealer, long ago, evened out the spigot for me. (Two tries with solid copper gaskets have not been successful.)

Kinda looking forward to the opportunity (again?). The head hasn't been off since ~1,740 miles odo reading. There's new hardened washers and head bolts awaiting their chance to perform, as well.

A friend has a machine shop in his garage and will be flattening the washer seats in the head for me.  If you haven't noticed the seats are concave and when the nuts are tightened they distort and mush into the head. Hoping that machining the spots flat that the new washers will work better.

Might make the switch to the British-made exhaust to alleviate the recurrent fitment problems I am having. Jury's out. Won't be immediate either. Pocket book, y'know...

If anyone has any input before I reassemble, I'm open.

Gotta contort the bike through the basement door into the "shop" first. (Installation of double door to shop on horizon... never quite get there... pocketbook, y'know..)

Report to follow.

-Jesse, here we go again!
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


bob bezin

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Reply #1 on: August 21, 2008, 12:33:47 pm
i  am very happy with the british made exhaust
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DaveG297

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Reply #2 on: August 22, 2008, 10:12:15 pm
Heres hoping you can get the head off.    I bet you'll run into those soft washers and probably cuss like mad.  I did and gave up after busting one fin.........I think my dealer torqued those too much when they checked for damage due to bad oil pump when brand new...........I have all the luck.........dg





















jest2dogs

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Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 08:58:18 am
Okay, here's the deal so far...

Removed external trappings; fuel tank, head steady, exhaust header and silencer, carb, oil feed lines, rocker covers and rockers, pushrods and head "nuts".

Then began the head removal.  Blocks of wood under the intake and exhaust bosses only. Not on the fins. Apply force with use of wood mallet. This proved exasperating. Called Vince. He suggested penetrating oil around juncture.

No penetrating oil on hand. Resorted to choice "B", "BIGGER HAMMER". Used a 5#sledge at the other end of the wood block and Voila! Separation!. But working the head up the studs and off proved a tussle. There were quite a few curls of aluminium on the studs after removal. Stuff paper towel into pushrod tubes to prevent any junk going down there. But wait... there is a black encrustment around the top edge of the pushrod tube??? Off with the tappet cover, protective rag in place and clean out the crap. What is it???? Jury's out... (You can see this in the pic of the exposed cylinder top. It's in the top edge of the exhaust pushrod tube.)

The two exposed head washers fell away easily, as did two of the hardened washers down in the head. But as earlier mentioned, the have a tendency to get pounded into the head due to the factory washer's tendency to "meld" with the  head.

It was messy down in the stud passages. Sorry I failed to take a picture "before".

I took the head over to my friend's shop and we spent much time on "setup". As  I had a previous engagement, I had to leave it with him (believe me, he's like a pig in sh-- with projects like this, that' s why he built his shop...).

Today I returned to pick up the head and we decided to clean off the carbon and also, he asked, "Do you want to see what the valves look like?" with a twinkle in his eye. He was just chompin' at the bit to strip down the head! :O) So I learned how to remove valves (but not yet valve seats or seals). All looked good, but I wirebrushed the exhaust port and the domed cylinder head and she cleaned up pretty good.

As for the cylinder. I will clean the excess oil from the cylinder surround, lightly clean the discoloration off the head mounting surface and otherwise prep for replacing the gasket and head. Jury's still out on the sealant to use. My friend with the machine shop(old Harley shop owner) STRONGLY suggests Hi-temp aluminum paint (several coats on each side of the gasket). I, personally, am leaning toward Permatex spray-on copper gasket sealant. (How do I decide?) I also plan to replace the stock studs with the hardened square-ended ones from CMW. I already have new hardened washers and it has been suggested (guess who, again) that I place a broader hardened washer under the given washers to spread the torque and further resist digging into the soft head. Perhaps will do as the flat bottom boring had to go a little deep on at least one hole to clean up the crater left by the stock washer mess. (Chunks and circles of aluminum came out of the head when the tough washers were removed!) Sorry, I didn't' think to take pictures before of the head*, but you will see for yourself if/when you ever get into this project. Gawd! the castings are rough on this bike! (*The dome in the head looked similar to the crown of the piston, which is carbon covered and has some slight splatter near the spark plug. I do not plan to decarbonize the piston at this time, it's not that bad. Gotta be careful junk doesn't go down between piston and cylinder wall.)

So, here are some photos. More later...

-Jesse, reporting from The Basement. How about those volleyball players, ay?!
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


Kevin Mahoney

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Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 07:12:50 pm
Please measure the top lip of the piston and then the recess in the cylinder head. you may want to consider removing a bit of material from the lip. There are cases of the lip being too tall thus not allowing the gasket to crush properly. This can cause a weeping leak.
Best Regards,
Kevin Mahoney
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clamp

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Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 03:39:28 am
 When everything is cleaned up real well place the head on the cylinder and measure the gap. It should be half the thickness of the gasket you are going to use. As number one said.

    Actually if you know what you are doing you should be able to feel this when you torque it down.

       The torque will no longer come  on slowly but  will finish and become metal to metal.

       

       
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cochi

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Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 03:43:23 am
Jest2dogs, After decarbonizing my 03 Bullet, I used a stock head gasket with the Permatex copper spray. That was 1000 miles ago and so far no oil leaks. Good luck! cochi


jest2dogs

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Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 05:32:50 am
Thank you for your tips so far.

Dry assembly sans gasket was on my list. Vince originally "trimmed" the spigot but during my last assembly (using a solid copper gasket) I also flattened the head some on fine emery cloth on a glass surface. This may have changed the depth of the recess in the head. So, I am looking forward to what the clearances might be.

I believe I, too, will use the Permatex Copper spray. Thanks.

Should the new studs be "blue" Loctited into the case or dry? And...

I have been advised to use anti-sieze on the top threads of the studs for even & smooth torqueing of the head nuts. Any take on this?

Now to just find the time between work, painting the house, yard sale and yard work....

-Jesse, maybe by the weekend?...

"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


cochi

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Reply #8 on: September 03, 2008, 03:31:59 pm
Jes, how's the project coming along? As for using anti-seize, I guess it wouldn't hurt. I didn't' use any and had no problems. I put on another 200 miles on the Bullet last week and still no oil leak!!  The gods are smiling at me! cochi :D


cyrusb

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Reply #9 on: September 03, 2008, 07:47:22 pm
Could you see where it was leaking from? Was it the same spot as the times before?
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


mbevo1

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Reply #10 on: September 03, 2008, 08:35:16 pm
Jess -

I await your further adventures, too... I have a new gasket, hardened washers and new studs awaiting ambition and knowledge...

Do you need to remove the barrel to replace the studs?  Hope they can be unscrewed (vise-grips?) and replaced in situ...  don't want to remove anything I don't have to.  I'm planning on blue loctite.  I've used it on everything I can reach and haven't lost a fastener, yet (?)

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


jest2dogs

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Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 05:05:14 am
Okay, I had better jump back in here! I had some setbacks. Nothing to be "afraid" of, and maybe we can all learn from some of my well intentioned errors.

First off I don't mind being a test case for  those of us who don't do this for a living. I have some background in mechanics; shade tree, military aviation and bicycle shop. All three and none apply to the Enfield exactly :O)

Use of "Never Seize" on the threads WILL change the torque value!! (Ask me how I know this  :-[) It also may act as an insulator and not transfer heat well.

I have had conflicting information from sources other than on this list that I am disseminating for clarity and applicability. (Diplomacy 101)

I am not trying to make this task more daunting or unapproachable. I am awaiting some new parts (my bad) and I will try to have her up and running shortly after they arrive. Believe me, I could now about do this in my sleep. I have gained a ton of confidence. I am not stressing on any timeline (I have other vehilcles to rely on, if need be) and am enjoying the learning experience immensely. Afterall, it is just a piece of machinery, one that is adored, mind you, but still...

1. Torque values don't mean squat. Pete Snidal (and my old wrenching past) tell one to learn and trust in "feel". I did not do that and cooked by the book, seasoned by some inaccurate salty advice. Result: snapped hardened head bolt. Gall torque values (dry threads) can be inconsistent in practice due condition/quality of parts (*). Lubricants change the playing field.

2. *I always thought that the 285 in/lb torque setting seemed severe even on dry threads, and I think I stretched my last (stock/original studs) when I installed the solid copper head gasket last year.

3.Use of Hi-Temp blue loctite on the stud lower threads has both been suggested and  dissuaded?

4. The Enfield is dirt simple and third world serviceable. It shouldn't need too many fancy things to get it to work.

5. I am going at things a little slower this time. Why rush. I can make a mistake, like over-torqueing, then regroup to do it right. I'm glad I am not afraid to learn. Perhaps my mistakes will save some of you from same.

6. Old Harley mechanics are not Enfield mechanics. Bless their hearts. The Harley is a tank or tractor, the Enfield is lawnmower. "To torque Harley head bolts you tighten 'til the veins in your neck pop..then you get the hammer." Not so on the Enfield.

7. If you flat-bottom bore the head stud recesses (tunnels) to clean up the swarf and old washer seats in the head.. remember that the seat is now deeper in the head. You will have to use two hardened washers under each stud head nut, otherwise the flats of the nuts start to descend into the recess and dig into the head, thus changing torque (toss the first head gasket!).

8. Block orifices and clean up as much carbon as possible while you are in there (might's well...). Carb cleaner and acetone work well, but watch where they go. If you think any has run into the crankcase, then change the oil.

8. Use basic mechanical techniques. And improvise when needed... a .22 cal. pistol cleaning rod and swatches soaked in carb cleaner can clean out holes well, just watch out for loose threads on the swatches. And don't use a .38 cal patch (ask me how I know this :O)

Here's what my plan of action is:

New hardened studs. New stock gasket. New stud nuts. Reuse the two sets of hardened washers I have.

The clearance between my head and the top of the cylinder is less than .334mm although this varies slightly. I have worked most high/low spots out of the head with emery paper on a sheet of glass. The surfaces have not been machined, so are not perfectly mated, but better than when they left the factory. It doesn't matter, the stock 1mm gasket with sealant should have enough give to fill the void. A solid copper gasket really needs machined, flat surfaces to work well. Maybe on my next Enfield.

I am now going to use some aircraft gasket sealant. It's really old timey stuff "Tite Seal". It's vitrified clay in an oil base. I tried the Permatex sealant on the first tries at assembly and it may work just as well. "Cochi", I think has had success so far.

I am also going to try an old machinist approach and use oil on the stud threads and a reduced torque value to compensate (less on numbers, more on feel). Someone on one of the forums has used 22 ft/lbs with success, mine will be less due the lubricant. I will report soon on the process. As I said, I've done this a few times now and it all should go quite quickly once the parts arrive.

-Jesse, chomping at the bit now :O) Here are some photos..
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


jest2dogs

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Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 06:04:27 am
Here's a couple of more pics. I hope deez are helpful to yuz guys for sumpin'. Borrow Guido's "heater' cleanin' kit. But keep it on the QT. I heard de's been a leak. Keep it squeaky clean or they'll need to be a few adjustments to the pertinent parties... if yuz know what I mean  ;D

I've gotta funny feelin' about that Permatex stuff... I think it's the "Copper". Could be a sticky situation. Watch out ya' don't leave any fingerprints  ;)

-Jesse, aka The Boston Boxer (damn witness protection program...)
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


jest2dogs

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Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 06:38:49 am
To Mike and "Stumpy" in Michigan.

To remove studs get two nuts of the same thread and pitch as the head nuts. Mine on the 2006 classic are 8mm. Double nut the top of the stud (tighten one nut against the other) and remove stud evenly. You don't need to remove the cylinder, just the head.

I found some oil in the stud holes and I am not sure how it got there. It could have welled up from the crankcase? Or, the holes may go partially through into the case on the left side. More probably, the oil seeped down into the holes after working its way from the pushrod tubes. I did notice that the second biggest oil leak was from the area of the left rear stud. I sprayed carb cleaner into the holes once the stud was removed then soaked it up using a zillion swatches (they're cheap). I did use some .38 cal swatches but I made the mistake of twisting them once in the hole and they threaded themselves in. Trying to undo them resulted in the tip of the cleaning rod unscrewing (but not entirely, whew!). I had to use gut wrenching pulling power to just pull up on the rod and free the swatches from entrapment (not recommended for pulling climbers from crevasses). Keep the .38 swatches for sopping fluid from the smooth part of the bore and use the .22 swatches for the threaded depths. I plan to drain the oil (from which orifice, I know not) to ensure no cleaning fluids dribbled into the crankcase.

For reinserting the studs...aha! the next trick. Get an acorn nut the same threading as the studs. Glue a ball bearing into the underside of the acorn cap. Screw it onto the stud. Oil the bottom threads with 30 weight non-detergent oil, and use the acorn nut as a driver and torque the stud into the case to to 45 inch lbs. This is the non-Loctite way. (I can't take credit fo this tip. Wish I could, its great.)

I plan to oil (again 30 wt non-detergent) the top threads when torqueing down the head. I will only use 165 in/lbs or "feel" (whichever works). At least I won't be vastly over-torqued!

-Jesse, scheduling time for the repair.
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


mbevo1

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Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 01:45:30 pm
Jesse -

Great explaination - great tips!

Thanks,

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


cyrusb

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Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 06:03:32 pm
This is all great, but have you actually seen the places the head leaks ? There must have been a mark or stain on the gasket somewhere. You did say you have done this  four times, right?
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


cochi

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Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 07:03:27 pm
Jess, great write up  and clever method for torquing the the studs using an acorn nut and ball bearing. I'm making a copy of your procedure for the next time I pull the head. Thanks again and good luck ;D cochi


jest2dogs

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Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 09:35:48 pm
cyrusb,

As far as I can determine, the head gasket leaked from near the pushrod tubes and the left side near the left rear stud. I think I mentioned this in one of the posts. But then, there was a lot I mentioned... sorry if it was confusing.

I had used solid copper gaskets on the two earlier tries last year. The mating surfaces just aren't true enough, on my engine (qualifier :O)  to allow them to work properly.

I could see a discoloration on the gasket where the oil probably seeped by. There were no physical marks or grooves or scratches leading from the inner edges to the outer, just discoloration.

I hope this answers your question adequately.

-Jesse
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.


cyrusb

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Reply #18 on: September 05, 2008, 01:01:47 am
Sure does, One other question, have you tried a composite gasket (if there is one) on any of the other attempts? With misaligned surfaces it seem like the solid copper gaskets would be less forgiving than the composite. no?
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


jest2dogs

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Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 11:10:06 am
cyrusb,

I plan to use the stock laminated gasket (copper folded over fiber) and "Tite Seal" (vitrified clay in oil) an aviation sealant.

I read on some forum, perhaps this one, that someone had used the fiber composite gasket available from Hitchcock's.  It had failed and was miserable to remove from the head upon replacement. If my current method does not work I may try it...or not.

-Jesse, still waiting parts.
"Ennie" 2006 RE Bullet Classic 500 (currently undergoing a facelift)
Commuter Scooter Commuted to "Otherside"
"Geezer" 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750 died and reborn as yet, un-named, 2005 Moto Guzzi Breva 750,
and...the newest stablemate, also un-named, my crazy Russian 2015 Ural cT.