[blasphemous]

Hi all,
My bike ran well until recently it started kicking back a lot. Its a 2000 RE with 700 miles on it (so far). So I am slowly breaking it in.
I checked the tappets and noticed that one of the locknuts on the pushrods had come loose. I re-set them properly and proceeded to set the points gap. I couldn't use my feeler gauge so used a visiting card to gap it (is this correct ?)

Now I wanted to set the timing and here is where I got horribly confused. I used the tool to find TDC. Bought it from Nfield Gear. It plugs into the spark plug housing. I found the TDC to be 0.6mm this is where the gaps open up to its widest (right ?) It says to look at the tappets to see if I am finding the TDC on the compression stoke. So looking at the tappets which one is the inlet pushrod ? (Left or Right)

 Now as per Snidal Manual and Hitchcoks Manual it asked me to mark 0.8mm higher from this point.  http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/pictures/content5/bullet_ignition_timing_points.pdf 

I did exactly as the document says to note 0.8 mm above my actual TDC, and asked to turn the engine back a 1/4 turn. So here how do I turn the engine back a 1/4 turn ? Just rotate the rear wheel backwards in 4'th gear ?

Then it says to move engine forward where when the higher mark appears (0.6 + 0.8 = 1.4 mm ?) and this is when ammeter flicks back to zero and the points separate ?

With all the kickbacks is it bad for the engine ? I also use pinging when I first start up, it kinda sounds like marbles. Is it bcoz of improper timing ?

Also how do I make my own timing light tool ? Is it as simple as a 12V light connected to wires and alligator clips ?

Please help me, doing this for the first time.

Thanks much !

[ace.cafe]

If it is pinging when you first start it up at idle, the timing is way way off.

The points gap is .015". Find your feeler gauge or buy a new one.

Just set the static timing at .8mm BTDC with the little tool that goes in the spark plug hole, and that should get you into the ballpark.
Get a little 12v test light to check the timing. They are like 3 dollars.
Put the clip on a negative place like the negative battery terminal, and touch the probe to the negative(-12v) terminal on the coil. When the light just turns on as you rotate the engine in the normal direction of rotation, then that is where you set the timing. It should come on just as the little tool that goes into the spark plug hole shows .8mm BTDC..

Let us know.

[tooseevee]

Hi all,

 It says to look at the tappets to see if I am finding the TDC on the compression stoke. So looking at the tappets which one is the inlet pushrod ? (Left or Right)

Thanks much !

             The intake pushrod is the rear one (where the carburetor is). The exhaust pushrod is the front one (where the exhaust pipe is). Both pushrods should spin freely at TDC on compression stroke.

              Good luck. Setting ignition timing is the hardest thing to learn (and to explain) over the internet. It can get very confusing. Remember you must set the points gap first! THEN the ignition timing. Two separate operations.

[blasphemous]

Thanks Ace, Tooseeve, here is a quick update:

I think I finally understand the whole process of setting the timing. I found TDC and then proceeded to mark 0.8 mm above this TDC mark (was on the scale on my TDC tool). What confused me was that the 0.8 mm above TDC did not fall on the marked scale on my tool. I used a precision tool to mark it.  I made a little timing light and connected it to the points. I got the piston to 0.8mm BTDC and proceeded to adjust the cam plate so that my points open. I loosened my top nut but did not have enough clearance to loosen my bottom nut. So I dis-connected my timing light and loosened the bottom nut. Note that my ignition was on through out this process. So when I re-attempted to connect the timing light I somehow shorted the connections or something, which dumped all the charge in my battery. Even my speedometer gauge light would not come on. So what did I do wrong here ?

I have now re-charged my battery and will attempt to adjust the plate again.
So Ace, when you say to connect the probe to the negative terminal of the coil do you mean the cable that runs from the condenser to the points ? or is it the black wire on the other side of the points ? I have a red cable running from the condenser to the points and a black cable on the other end.

What I did was connect one end of the timing light to the point on the plate and the other end to the black cable. Please advise. 

[tooseevee]

So Ace, when you say to connect the probe to the negative terminal of the coil do you mean the cable that runs from the condenser to the points ? or is it the black wire on the other side of the points ? I have a red cable running from the condenser to the points and a black cable on the other end.

What I did was connect one end of the timing light to the point on the plate and the other end to the black cable. Please advise.

           Clip one wire of your test light to ground, any ground. Clip the other wire to the little arm of the movable point (the one that rides up and down on the cam and makes and breaks the connection). Your light should now light as you rotate the plate to just open the points (with the key on). Tighten down the plate screws at that point.  Yer done 

            Did you set the points gap first? You gotta do that first.
            PS: When I say clip I'm just assuming alligator clips.

[ace.cafe]

If you dumped your battery charge out after you installed or adjusted your points, then you shorted the points by having some misplacement of the little plastic insulator on the points post where you connect your condenser. Check that out.

Tooseevee covered the timing light connection.

[creaky]

I have found it is very hard to estimate .8mm on my TDC tool and besides, unless my timing is set to almost TDC I get pinging occasionally under load at higher speeds. The maximum timing at higher revs should be 32 degrees BTDC which is about 8.5mm. So I mark 8.5mm on the tool which is then easier to read and set the points while holding the cam fully against the springs. (not easy but not impossible). In my opinion this should be more accurate as the timing at higher revs is more important than at idle. This stops my pinging and the bike runs well. Also if the springs were weak this method would be more effective. Of course it would be simpler if you had the primary cover off and could put a mark on the alternator at 32 degrees and use a timing light connected to the spark plug, but I have a sidecar in the way and it's hard enough leaning over the bike to check and adjust my timing anyway. (I can take the chair off in 15 minutes but it takes all weekend to put it back on) Good luck with the timing adjustments.

[tooseevee]

The maximum timing at higher revs should be 32 degrees BTDC which is about 8.5mm. So I mark 8.5mm on the tool which is then easier to read and set the points while holding the cam fully against the springs. (not easy but not impossible). In my opinion this should be more accurate as the timing at higher revs is more important than at idle. This stops my pinging and the bike runs well. Also if the springs were weak this method would be more effective. Of course it would be simpler if you had the primary cover off and could put a mark on the alternator at 32 degrees and use a timing light connected to the spark plug,

            Totally agree about setting timing at full advance static. I've known of many heads that have been literally cooked to death by guys trying to set timing with a strobe light with the engine running.

             I've set mine and others bikes this way since the '70s. You set your points gap and then rotate the engine to its full advance mark on the flywheel (or wherever that mark is). Then you rotate (and lock) the points camshaft at full advance (there are special little tools around to do this or you improvise). Then you rotate your points plate 'til your little light just turns on and secure the plate. When you release your points camshaft, it snaps right back to idle timing (the advance mechanism does that) and you are all set.   

           I've never found it necessary to almost melt an engine trying to use a strobe light. All the new aftermarket EIs, from what I've seen, read and heard, have little static timing LEDs built in. I've never dealt with any of these so I don't know. They are better, I guess, because no points to burn or close up on you suddenly or break or change timing slowly because of rubbing block wear.  Set it and forget it 

[blasphemous]

            Did you set the points gap first? You gotta do that first.

I thought I did, used a visiting card as the gap tool since my feeler gauge did not have enough clearance to slide between the points. Yesterday I measured the thickness of the card and it turned out to be 0.3 mm instead of 0.4 mm. Will now have to re-set the right gap and start with the timing all over again.

[blasphemous]

So I mark 8.5mm on the tool which is then easier to read and set the points while holding the cam fully against the springs. (not easy but not impossible).

So how do I hold the cam fully against the springs ? I was just fiddling with the cam plate and it just rotates. There is not spring action to it ? So clearly I don't know how to work this cam. haha Please let me know creaky, I am eager to learn.

[blasphemous]

             You set your points gap and then rotate the engine to its full advance mark on the flywheel (or wherever that mark is). Then you rotate (and lock) the points camshaft at full advance (there are special little tools around to do this or you improvise). Then you rotate your points plate 'til your little light just turns on and secure the plate. When you release your points camshaft, it snaps right back to idle timing (the advance mechanism does that) and you are all set.     

How exactly do I rotate and lock the camshaft at full advance ? I only know the points plate which rotates left and right fenced by the oblong hole. The Snidal manual just sayd to find 0.8 mm BTDC and then rotate the cam plate (points plate) clockwise completely and then slowly rotate counter-clockwise until the timing light turns on, at which point you screw down the plate.

Update:
Yesterday I tried again. Got it to 0.8mm BTDC unscrewed the cam plate, rotated it clockwise as far as it would go and then slowly rotated it back counter-clockwise. But the timing light never came on. What am I doing wrong here ? Also the paper card I used to set the gapping (which I thought was 0.4 mm) was actually 0.3 mm. Will re-set the gap again. Could this be the issue ?

[tooseevee]

So how do I hold the cam fully against the springs ? I was just fiddling with the cam plate and it just rotates. There is not spring action to it ? So clearly I don't know how to work this cam. haha Please let me know creaky, I am eager to learn.

             It's not the "cam plate" (as you call it) that you rotate to full advance. It's the cam SHAFT.

             I hate to say this, but I think you have to get help from a person who is actually THERE. It's become very clear to me (and I mean no offense here) that you're very confused about even setting the points gap beFORE you can do the timing. It's very hard to explain this all in writing by email and not get me AND you in a huge confused mess. You might misunderstand something I say and damage something. I'm gonna bow out and let people who actually have points Enfields take over (I have an AVL).

            As far as how do you hold the camshaft at full advance, that's something you have to work out. YOU are there. Sometimes you can do it with a box end wrench and sometimes other methods work like a weighted vice grip holding a socket of the right size.

            I have a small tool made specifically for cone points harleys (shovelheads) that I've had since the early '80s. It wouldn't work on Enfields. 

             

[tooseevee]

I thought I did, used a visiting card as the gap tool since my feeler gauge did not have enough clearance to slide between the points.

            That makes no sense. You set the gap with a feeler gauge that's the specific thickness, not vice versa.

[Arizoni]

For what it's worth.

There are two different areas that we are dealing with here.
The points plate which the points are attached to.  It is normally held in position by several screws.
This is the plate that is rotated to time the opening of the points.

The second is the rotating shaft which has the points cam attached to it.
This points cam can rotate on its shaft and its rotation is controlled by several spring loaded weights.
As these weights move outward against the spring pressure, the cam is rotated to a position that is advanced.

When the engine is idling the springs keep the weights pulled inward which positions the points cam so it just begins to open the ignition points with the piston at 0.8mm BTDC.

With the engine running at speeds above idle, the weights begin to move outward, rotating the points cam so the ignition happens further ahead of 0.8mm BTDC.
At higher engine speeds the weights are thrown out to the limits of their travel which moves the points cam to a position where the points open with the piston at 8.5mm BTDC.

If one wants to adjust the ignition points opening to agree with this 8.5mm advance, the weights must be moved outward against the spring pressure and held there while the points plate is rotated.

If one wants to adjust the ignition points opening for the idle speed, they use the 0.8mm BTDC piston location and they don't try to rotate the weights outward.  Just leave the weights alone and let the springs keep them inward.

Normally, the ignition points are closed.  That is, electrical power from the coil is traveling down thru the wire that connects to the points movable arm.  This completes the electrical circuit and allows the ignition coil to charge up.

As the piston approaches TDC, the points cam opens the points, interrupting the electrical flow to ground. 
The sudden lack of power causes the charged magnetic field that has developed in the ignition coil to collapse.  This creates an electrical charge of tens of thousands of volts to be created in the ignition coils secondary windings.  This high voltage fires the spark plug.

Now that I've gone thru the basics, it should be obvious that with the ignition points closed (as they are most of the time), attaching a light bulb or volt meter to the movable arm of the points and the other light wire or volt meter wire to ground will do nothing.

The light won't light or the volt meter won't show any voltage because it is easier for the electrical power to just go thru the points to ground than it is for it to go thru the light bulb or the volt meter.

With the piston set to whichever position it is that you want to set the points to open at, if one now loosens the points plate screws and begins to rotate the plate, a position will be found where the points cam just begin to open the points.

As the points start to open, suddenly, the light will light or the volt meter will begin to show voltage.

This is the place you want the points to open so, tighten the points plate screws.

Hope this helps.

[tooseevee]

For what it's worth.

Hope this helps.

              EVerything you said! Excellent! Clear and concise. A+ or +1 or whatever 

              The only thing I choked on was when you said (paraphrased) "attaching your test light to the movable point arm and to ground won't do anything". So I reread it twice to be sure and I saw that you and I are on the same page (it won't light with the points closed is what you meant duh).

              I just wish now that we were in blasphemous' garage to help him. It's SO hard to help him with words.