Author Topic: Somebody f'ed up my bike!  (Read 5392 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cowboysculptor

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Karma: 0
on: August 16, 2008, 06:49:03 pm
And now I need help.

My 2007 Bullet Deluxe was parked on the street, and when I went out this morning the first thing I noticed was that the license plate was folded over.  (Actually, the first thing I noticed was a pile of beer cans lying nearby.)  When I tried to start it, the kickstarter slipped, almost caught, then slipped again, and now it pretty much turns freely with only a bit of resistance.  The electric start also spins without turning anything.

The best I can tell is that somebody was jumping on the kickstarter and mangled some gears.  I'm also guessing this is not something covered under the warranty.

So . . . where should I start?  This aspect of motorcycle repair is new to me.  Before I take off the transmission cover and start poking around, I would appreciate some advice.

Thanks guys,
Peter
2007 Royal Enfield Bullet Deluxe
1978 cb750f


Vince

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,693
  • Karma: 0
Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 01:06:33 am
     "Poking around" has seldom been a model of efficiency. Talk to Bikerdanny about how long it took him to repair his bike and the steep learning curve he had to go through. My service department is driven by the home mechanic. That is not to say that there are not real competent people out there. It's just that that competency often come at a higher cost than most people would be willing to spend if they knew the cost up front.
     The bottom line is this: If you want it done fast and professionally you should take it to a good shop now. If you want to invest in the learning curve be prepared for higher costs and a longer repair time. And that is the trade off. If you are mechanically inclined take the time and maybe you"ll save a little money with the HOURS you will spend on the project. Do you have kids to take to soccer practice? Or are you involved in an acting group or board of some time? How do you want to spend your TIME as well as your money? Is the satisfaction you'll get worth the time investment?
      When you figure this out let me know. This stuff drives me crazy. Good luck!
     


Bankerdanny

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 647
  • Karma: 0
Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 03:43:45 am
You are so right Vince.

Cowboy, Be systematic, the first thing I would do is check the clutch adjustment. That was what was wrong with mine (I thought it was the pawl). Clutch rod was adjusted too tight and the clutch was slipping when I kicked it through.

The ES should turn the bike over regardless of the condition of the clutch, kick start pawl, or primary chain; it turns over the engine via gears. The primary chain just makes the connection between the crankshaft and the transmission input shaft.

 Put the bike on the center stand and put it in first; turn the rear wheel with your hand, does is turn over the engine? If it does the primary is OK.
Endeavor To Persevere

Current: '75 Honda CB550F, '76 Honda CB750F. Previous:  2007 Yamaha Vino 125, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000 Goldwing, '77 Honda CB550K, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500ES, '68 Suzuki K11, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 05:08:25 am
Okay, let's look at this logically.
First, the kickstarter and the electric starter are essentially unrelated in function.
The symptoms are that the kickstarter kicks thru with little resistance, and the E-start seems to spin free without starting the engine.
It is probably turning the engine without compression, but seems like it's just spinning free..

These symptoms would point me directly to the Decompressor.
My money says the Decompressor is stuck in the open position.
Get the Decompressor closed and working right, and the bike will probably start up fine.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 05:19:37 am by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


The Garbone

  • Shade Tree
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,978
  • Karma: 0
  • User Complaints: 22
Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 05:14:42 am
Good call,  If I was a a drunk on an unfamiliar bike I would mess with all the neat knobs and switches myself... 
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *


Foggy_Auggie

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Karma: 0
Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 05:38:43 am
And messing with someone else's ride either from vandalism or trying to steal it - is just one notch lower than messing with someone else's woman.

There are potential ugly consequences.
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Fortiter Et Fideliter


The Garbone

  • Shade Tree
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,978
  • Karma: 0
  • User Complaints: 22
Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 05:57:01 am
And messing with someone else's ride either from vandalism or trying to steal it - is just one notch lower than messing with someone else's woman.

There are potential ugly consequences.

A good beating is in order...IMO
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *


cowboysculptor

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Karma: 0
Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 06:12:28 am
Now this is useful information, thanks guys.  I'm checking the decompression and clutch adjustment first thing in the morning.  I'm not excited about opening up the gearbox, that's why I posted the question here in the first place.

Trust me, I'm quite familiar with the cost/benefit considerations, I'm not going into this lightly.  It's just that at the moment I have more skill and time than I have money, which is not to say I have either in abundance.  (That's a fancy way of saying I'm broke.)  I'm going to have to scrimp for parts, so paying for labor on top of that isn't even a consideration.  Besides, I at least have to say I tried.

There's a saying about sculptors: we don't know how to do everything, we just know how to figure it out.  With help, of course.  Thanks guys!

Peter
2007 Royal Enfield Bullet Deluxe
1978 cb750f


cowboysculptor

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Karma: 0
Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 07:58:25 pm
Okay guys, here's what's going on:

The clutch and decompressor seem to be fine.  (If it were a clutch adjustment problem, the bike should still start.)

I put the bike into fifth gear and rotated the rear wheel.  Not only did I never feel compression, the ammeter also did not move.  I could also turn the rear wheel using the kickstart.

Trying the e-start sounds like when I'm not getting spark, so I checked that and sure enough, no spark at the plug.

Lastly, and most importantly, I removed the contact breaker cover and checked to make sure the contact breaker shaft is rotating when I try the e-start, and it is not!  When I turn the kickstarter, the contact breaker shaft still does not rotate. 

Recently I set my timing, and thought it was odd that I had to rotate the points plate as far clockwise as it would go to reach correct timing, whereas before the plate was rotated nearly entirely counter-clockwise.

The system seems to be fine from the gear box through to the back wheel, shifting properly. 

Does that isolate it for you guys?  Any thoughts?  Greatly appreciated!

Peter
2007 Royal Enfield Bullet Deluxe
1978 cb750f


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 08:28:34 pm
Okay, well this doesn't sound real good. But we'll have to see.
You eliminated the easy stuff.


Basically at this point the next step is to remove the primary cover and look around in there.

Whatever is going on is probably located inside that primary case.

I'm not too sure why your timing appears to be changed when you checked it, but we'll look at that problem after we figure out this one.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 08:30:36 pm by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Bankerdanny

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 647
  • Karma: 0
Reply #10 on: August 17, 2008, 10:05:25 pm
I think Ace (who is clearly more experienced than I am) is correct.

But it is still very odd that the ES spins, but the contact breaker does not. I'm not positive, but I don't think that the primary chain is involved in the movement of the breaker shaft, that is moved by gears on the right side of the engine as part of the cam shaft.

I wonder if the ES is engaging. It still seems to me that you have two issues going on. Opening the primary will help diagnose many of them. With the primary open you can kick the engine over to see if the transmission input shaft is spinning.

Assuming the primary chain isn't broken (and I cannot imagine how anybody could have accomplished that no matter how drunk and stupid they might have been) You can put the trans in first and rotate the wheel and see if the crank shaft is moving. Make sure you have pulled the spark plug, then you will hear the air escaping to know that the piston is moving. You can also check for movement of the breaker point shaft.

To catch the oil from the primary I use a drywall mud bucket (long thin rectangle) from Home Depot. The small size one is almost exactly the same length as the primary.

While it's possible that vandals sheared the kickstart pawl kicking it over, it just doesn't seem likely.
Endeavor To Persevere

Current: '75 Honda CB550F, '76 Honda CB750F. Previous:  2007 Yamaha Vino 125, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000 Goldwing, '77 Honda CB550K, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500ES, '68 Suzuki K11, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #11 on: August 17, 2008, 10:40:08 pm
I think Ace (who is clearly more experienced than I am) is correct.

But it is still very odd that the ES spins, but the contact breaker does not. I'm not positive, but I don't think that the primary chain is involved in the movement of the breaker shaft, that is moved by gears on the right side of the engine as part of the cam shaft.

I wonder if the ES is engaging. It still seems to me that you have two issues going on. Opening the primary will help diagnose many of them. With the primary open you can kick the engine over to see if the transmission input shaft is spinning.

Assuming the primary chain isn't broken (and I cannot imagine how anybody could have accomplished that no matter how drunk and stupid they might have been) You can put the trans in first and rotate the wheel and see if the crank shaft is moving. Make sure you have pulled the spark plug, then you will hear the air escaping to know that the piston is moving. You can also check for movement of the breaker point shaft.

To catch the oil from the primary I use a drywall mud bucket (long thin rectangle) from Home Depot. The small size one is almost exactly the same length as the primary.

While it's possible that vandals sheared the kickstart pawl kicking it over, it just doesn't seem likely.

You're right, there's no chain involved between the ES and the distributor. That's all gears on the timing side, and connected thru the engine by the crankshaft and the primary/sprag gear cluster..
However, there are some possibilities that involve the sprag gear cluster which is integral with the front primary sprocket. It could be broken, which would cause both symptoms(kick and ES).
I hesitate at this point to speculate, because I don't want to be alarmist.
So, we'll just see what Cowboysculptor reports about the primary, and move on from there if we have to.

The breaker points could just be something as simple as stuck advance weights causing the plate to be in the wrong position, or something simple like that.
Although it will be appropriate to address and cure that before finalizing this repair.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Bankerdanny

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 647
  • Karma: 0
Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 01:25:01 am
part of my spring maintenance ordeal included replacing the whole ES sprag assembly (clutch and both gears).

It would be a remarkable run of bad luck for the sprag clutch and the kick start pawl to bite the bullet at the same time.

Cowboy, as it happens I have a spare new sprag clutch you can have if it turns out that is part of the problem.

Endeavor To Persevere

Current: '75 Honda CB550F, '76 Honda CB750F. Previous:  2007 Yamaha Vino 125, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000 Goldwing, '77 Honda CB550K, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500ES, '68 Suzuki K11, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175


Vince

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,693
  • Karma: 0
Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 04:58:17 pm
     I had one engine that sheared the left crank spindle from the flywheel. Take the primary cover off. If the chain and clutch and rotor are are spinning, but the engine is not, this may be the problem. It would explain all your symptoms. This would be MAJOR, so eliminate this possibility 1st. It is an easy check.


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 05:32:15 pm
     I had one engine that sheared the left crank spindle from the flywheel. Take the primary cover off. If the chain and clutch and rotor are are spinning, but the engine is not, this may be the problem. It would explain all your symptoms. This would be MAJOR, so eliminate this possibility 1st. It is an easy check.

I thought about that too, Vince.
But I stopped short of saying it, so that he didn't get too alarmed.
It certainly is possible, and it would be major.
Let's hope it's not that, and just a primary/sprag gear, or something like that.
It would be very disappointing for a new bike to have a major problem like that so early on in its life.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 05:33:49 pm by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Bankerdanny

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 647
  • Karma: 0
Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 05:58:01 pm
I would hope that such damage would be covered by the warranty (assuming it is within the warranty period).

That kind of damage should not happen even if some drunk knucklhead is jumping on the kick start lever.
Endeavor To Persevere

Current: '75 Honda CB550F, '76 Honda CB750F. Previous:  2007 Yamaha Vino 125, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000 Goldwing, '77 Honda CB550K, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500ES, '68 Suzuki K11, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175


cowboysculptor

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Karma: 0
Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 06:36:52 pm
Don't worry guys, you're not alarming me any more than I already was.

Vince, at the moment I think you may be on to something.  Let me put it as simply as I can: the engine and the rest of the drive train don't seem to be connecting. 

I removed the primary cover today, and found no obvious problems.  The clutch is operating just fine.  I also removed the gearbox cover and found no obvious problems.  Just thinking logically, gearbox and primary problems don't seem to fit with a bike that won't start with kick or e-starter.

At this point I'm willing to say I tried.  This surely must be covered under warranty, and if not . . . well.  This bike is going into the shop.  Thanks for all your help guys, I'll let you know if I have any updates.

Peter
2007 Royal Enfield Bullet Deluxe
1978 cb750f


erob123

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: 0
Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 06:55:50 pm
Hate to be a sprage but it cost me $1.50 a month on insurance to cover this stuff.  I might have a deduc but still alot cheaper and probably get some extra new parts.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 06:57:43 pm by erob123 »


cyrusb

  • Kept man
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,616
  • Karma: 2
  • There's a last time for everything
Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 01:47:13 am
Someone f'd- up allright, Royal Enfield ! thats who. Honestly, will the fun ever end? We can add that to the "broken crank pin malady". If you parked that bike running o.k , then that  catastrophic failure was caused by the kickstarter? Was  the kicker arm bent? That failure could only have been the result of bad heat treating of the components, and it brings the term "poor build  quality" to a new level.  How many miles are on this bike?
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.