Author Topic: Contemplating UCE oiling, and draining said oil  (Read 12626 times)

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ace.cafe

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Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 11:19:34 pm
That crank chamber is deigned to hold oil because the crank serves as an oil pump to sling oil up on to the transmission.
That's why it can't have an open drain hole. But maybe a small hole with a drain plug in it might be possible.
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 01:27:36 am
 I found out about the oil issue the first time I did the oil change. I could not get nearly as much oil out of it as I put in it. It seems that a drain hole in the very bottom of the of the crankcase would be the only way to do that. It would require recasting the engine cases, but should be easily done. Looks like it could be done with single drain plug or 2, one above the other. I did find rocking the bike back and forth to be worthless. I did it this way, installed the filter, then filled the engine sight glass to the top of the glass. I started and ran the engine for about 5 minutes, then shut it off. Everything looked normal. Thge next day the sight glass showed emply. I had to pour about half a qt. more in it to fill it up. The next day it showed half empty. About a quarter qt. needed to fill it up. Next time I filled it up 3/4 qt. above the fill line, started it and ran it, shut it off and left it to the next day. It still showed full. The next day and it was still full, so I guess I figured it out. Drain, rock the bike as much as possible, then overfill by 3/4 qt. That still doesn't account for all the oil in the engine, so I guess there is some you can't get out. And I thought a Harley was a pain.  So I change to oil like the auto trans in a car. You can get it all out, so change it quite a bit more often. The auto trans in my current car holds about 4 gallons total, but you can only get half that out by dropping the pan. So I got an aftermarket pan with a drain hole in it, and now drain out about 2 gallons every 20,000 miles. No pan dropping, no filter changing, just drain and refill. That should keep the oil fresh.
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adi-4004

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Reply #17 on: April 05, 2015, 03:09:22 am

Probably a dumb question. But this discussion is applicable for 2014 UCE models too? Or is this fixed for 2014 UCE bikes?
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #18 on: April 05, 2015, 03:17:19 am
Sorry to put you through this again, GHG!

But that photo speaks volumes - thanks for posting it!  The new plug is not on the flat bottom of the sump after all - it sure looks like it's located to drain the oil from the crank chamber instead - like where the blue arrow is in my last photo.  Wonder if it is...

Too bad one couldn't just drill a small drain hole between the crank chamber and the sump - like right about where the blue upside-down "3" is written in the first photo...


   No worries Matt, you know i enjoy it !  ;)

   And yeah that new plug IS draining the area around the crank.   And on our older motor's we do not have that flat area in the casting for a plug ...  for a plug with a head on it.  And to put a plug in our motor's.  I would think a plug.... without a head on it..... would do.  A plug with an NPT or tapered thread. So that the plug would not accidentally be screwed all the way UP, and into the crank.  But....   Do I think it is worth the trouble ? That's up to you. I have visions of stripped threads down the rode ?  No helicoils for NPT threads that I'm aware of ?  The motor is gonna run a little dry at start up for a bit after an oil change ?   For a little more oil out ? ....Ya know?

http://image.ec21.com/image/tkglobal/oimg_GC00982263_CA01684290/NPT_Plug_B16_%252F_Brass_.jpg


  And I hear ya on the drain hole between crank chamber and the sump. It's a good thought.  And I'm aware we BOTH realize how the oil is slung to the trany.   But I think IF there was a hole there, the volume of the oil in the crank chamber may be reduced too much. It may not have time enough to fill to the volume  that would be needed to do this.....

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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #19 on: April 05, 2015, 08:47:42 am
I learned from reading a bike magazine back in the late 90s, when the Harley came out with the TC88, that Harley knew very little about how the engine worked, especially with regard to engine oiling and crankcase ventilation. They had been building them that long, and they worked, so they left it alone. But when they tried to do a major redesign on it the the TwinCam88, they did some changes and things didn't work properly. Aside from crankcase ventilation, and oiling problems, the couldn't even get it to shift. It took several engineers 2 years to figure out the problems. I don't remember all of it, but it wouldn't shift because it was too smooth. The old EVO shook so much that the shaking/vibration had actually assisted it in shifting. I do remember that they had to add new oil galleries and crankcase vent tubes to make it perform properly, than after all that they still had a cam chain tensioner that tended to blow up at 30,000 miles.

I think before engineers (yes they can make mistakes too) redesign something they should seriously study what that have, especially when the last redesign was over 60 years ago. There should be some way to get all the oil out. you can even do that on a Harley. Of course a Harley is a lot more modern and made better out of better materials than a a new UCE  Enfield. A modern H-D is a 100,000 mile+ engine, even at freeway speeds, as long as you keep that can chain tensioner replaced.

I would love to see a couple of modern motorcycle engineers carefully examine the new Royal Enfield engine. and issue a report. I know I bought it because it is old and outdated, and wouldn't be attracted to it if it were not noisy and made a lot of vibration, and looked like a Honda (make that a Suzuki, their S40 is the most modern styled large Japanese single, and it dates back to 1986. The XR650L, DR650L, and KLR650L are designed as dirt bikes, not street bikes. However, you might want to try the new Yamaha SR400. It is an air cooled single cylinder that dates back to 1978. It was here even before then, having been pulled from the TT500 dirt bike. Even today's version lacks an electric starter, which makes me believe me I might get a good deal on one here in a year or so, when they don't sell. Unfortunately you are stuck with FI on that one, and no way to start it when the battery goes dead.  And it's FI will be turned for emissions, not for performance. But it should be a reliable bike, should be capable of over 100,000 miles of freeway use. It just doesn't look, sound, or feel like a 50+ year old British bike. Anyone else here just love that "chug chug" sound that happens after you shut the ignition off? That big piston just don't want to stop as soon as the ignition is shutoff. This is truly a bike where you shut the engine down, not turn it off, like with an electric motor. Even with an expected engine like of 50,000 miles, I expect to get my moneys worth out out, in pure fun. Unfortunately, most people are looking for exactly the opposite of what the engine delivers. They want smooth, quiet, reliability. no need to tinker with the air/fuel induction, just hop on, hit the magic button, and ride for say, 100,000 miles or so, with no involvement between them and the bike.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 08:56:27 am by suitcasejefferson »
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SteveThackery

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Reply #20 on: April 05, 2015, 10:45:41 am
I would love to see a couple of modern motorcycle engineers carefully examine the new Royal Enfield engine. and issue a report. I know I bought it because it is old and outdated....

They did, and it isn't!  The engine is newer than many Japanese bike engines.

AVL redesigned the whole thing in the mid-90s, (although it was designed to use the same basic crankcase castings with relatively minor changes), and it got another big revamp when the UCE engine came out.  Not a single part of the Classic engine has been carried forward to the UCE.

Actually, that's why the f***ing endless clickety clackety tappety noise from the valve gear pisses me off so much.  It's a brand new design, and they still couldn't get it right.
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caricabasso

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Reply #21 on: April 05, 2015, 11:55:53 am
Sorry to put you through this again, GHG!

But that photo speaks volumes - thanks for posting it!  The new plug is not on the flat bottom of the sump after all - it sure looks like it's located to drain the oil from the crank chamber instead - like where the blue arrow is in my last photo.  Wonder if it is...

Too bad one couldn't just drill a small drain hole between the crank chamber and the sump - like right about where the blue upside-down "3" is written in the first photo...

You have to remember that this is the only place where you can realize the drain hole.
However, it is able to completely empty the chamber of the connecting rod.
The pictures I inserted with the graduated container showing the amount of oil output from the engine of the Army which is provided with this drain plug.
We must also consider that the bike on the center stand hangs forward with the front wheel on the ground and the rear elevation of at least 10 cm ..
In this position the cap is probably on the lower part of the chamber of the connecting rod.
All motors have the predisposition to drain plug presenting its reinforcement melting, inexplicably not all have the threaded hole and the cap.
As mentioned by others this system chamber rod "flooded" allows considerable lubricating the crank and piston.
I do not know if the models with the cap room to have the rod more "flooded", meaning they do not have the communication holes to a certain height as in the photo.
The fact is that this place remain 900 cc of oil and if you do not have the cap pedaling several times with the engine off and without spark plug.
With this system can remove almost all the oil, about 2.700-2800 cc


mattsz

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Reply #22 on: April 05, 2015, 03:05:01 pm
That crank chamber is deigned to hold oil because the crank serves as an oil pump to sling oil up on to the transmission.
That's why it can't have an open drain hole. But maybe a small hole with a drain plug in it might be possible.

Probably just so.  But when at rest, the oil in the crank chamber would settle to level with the sump oil level; the sight-glass sits about 2 inches below the main needle bearing.  Still, it could change the volume of oil needed to fill the the sight-glass, and it could also alter the oil flow.

But....   Do I think it is worth the trouble ? That's up to you. I have visions of stripped threads down the rode ?  No helicoils for NPT threads that I'm aware of ?  The motor is gonna run a little dry at start up for a bit after an oil change ?   For a little more oil out ? ....Ya know?

I hear ya!  Either way, I don't plan to drill any holes, or install a new drain plug.  I'll stick with the usual routine, and next time I'll try kicking the engine over to try to toss some of that oil back into the sump.

We must also consider that the bike on the center stand hangs forward with the front wheel on the ground and the rear elevation of at least 10 cm ..

10 cm!  I've got K70's on my bike - on the center stand, with the front wheel touching, the back wheel rests just a few mm off the ground.  Last time I changed my oil, I put a 2" piece of wood beneath the center stand, and tipped the bike backwards that way - a good extra charge of oil came out the drain...


AussieDave

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Reply #23 on: April 05, 2015, 03:18:31 pm
Nice one Mattsz. That's what I do - except I usually use a couple of large bricks ... I tilt the bike onto one leg of the centre stand amd put a brick under the other leg and the repeat for the other side and then rock the bike backwards and forwards... Between that and the side to side tilting I get a lot more oil out . And I kick it through a good few times as well then rock it some more ... Almost double what just drains out on a level surface .
  What was wrong with the spare motor you picked up ? I wish our importer would sell me one of those cheap!
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mattsz

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Reply #24 on: April 05, 2015, 05:58:25 pm
Nice one Mattsz. That's what I do - except I usually use a couple of large bricks ... I tilt the bike onto one leg of the centre stand amd put a brick under the other leg and the repeat for the other side and then rock the bike backwards and forwards... Between that and the side to side tilting I get a lot more oil out . And I kick it through a good few times as well then rock it some more ... Almost double what just drains out on a level surface.

I use a 2x4 board, which is actually 1-1/2" thick.  I can place it under the feet of the stand and raise the bike up onto it.  I just take care not to put too much extra weight on the foot lever of the stand - there's been a couple that have broken!  The board is big enough in all dimensions that I can tip the bike side to side, and front to back, with ease.

Quote
What was wrong with the spare motor you picked up ? I wish our importer would sell me one of those cheap!

You know what?  I wish I knew!  I've got it stripped down to... well, you can see in the pics.  And I haven't found anything wrong yet - although I haven't measured anything.  It's an early G5 mill, but it has the post-recall updated transmission parts.  It has no factory serial number, but other numbers stamped and scribed in various places where my B5 engine has none.  It shows exterior signs of light use, but all the inside bits seem hardly used at all.  I almost wish I could find an obvious failure, then I'd at least have an idea of what broke, what to fix and what to keep an eye on.  Almost...  ;)


High On Octane

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Reply #25 on: April 05, 2015, 06:34:16 pm
Quote
You know what?  I wish I knew!  I've got it stripped down to... well, you can see in the pics.  And I haven't found anything wrong yet - although I haven't measured anything.  It's an early G5 mill, but it has the post-recall updated transmission parts.


If you didn't see anything wrong then it probably had bad crank bearings and was knocking, and likely replaced under warranty before it actually blew up.
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mattsz

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Reply #27 on: April 06, 2015, 01:44:00 am

If you didn't see anything wrong then it probably had bad crank bearings and was knocking, and likely replaced under warranty before it actually blew up.

Maybe... but hard to know, since serial-number evidence (or lack thereof) points to the fact that it didn't start its life on a bike.  Nobody at CMW knows anything about it.  I'll take lots of careful measurements and try to figure out if the crank and bearings are within specs...

http://www.slideshare.net/classicmw/royal-enfield-uce-lubrication

I've seen this a long time ago, Gremlin - thanks for the reminder!!!


singhg5

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Reply #28 on: April 06, 2015, 01:51:46 am
Very nice pictures Mattsz  :) and discussion on the incomplete oil drainage from engine.

I do what ACECAFE had pointed out - change oil more frequently than recommended because clean oil gets mixed with significant amount of undrained dirty oil in the engine, making fresh oil dirty right away. There is no drain plug in the front of crankcase to drain out crankshaft chamber in my bike. These 'extra' drains were introduced a few years later in newer models.

Once or twice I had given a few gentle kicks to remove more oil, but for some reason it felt as if something was grinding inside without oil. But our Italian RE friend seems to do that way every time. Some people / mechanics in India also do the same. May be I will try again and see how it feels. I want to drain more oil than just 1.8 litres !
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 10:47:37 pm by singhg5 »
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Reply #29 on: April 07, 2015, 09:06:52 am
So, today, just for laughs and to see what happens, I changed the oil in my CGT. It's the first time I've done it myself, has had 3x oil changes at dealer in 6200km.
First I rode home from work. Then dropped the oil in the sump and suction filter.
Second I dropped it from the secondary drain (in front) and caught that in a seperate container. Measured out at 400ml.
Third I put the secondary plug back in, took the spark plug out and spun the motor over a few times and caught what oil came out the main sump, per caricabasso's description. Another 200ml came out.
Fourth, changed the oil filter.
Fifth, measured the total oil that came out of the engine at about 2.4 litres, same as the owner's manual quotes for an oil change with filter. Put the same volume back in and ran. Of course it doesn't add up in the sightglass but I'll check it afew times, split the difference and call it good.

I found that there was still some swarf floating about in the oil, in the suction screen, on the drain plug magnet and in the oil filter. But no grotty shop rag at least.


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