Author Topic: Pictures of the new twin prototype  (Read 14902 times)

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rep_movsd

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on: April 01, 2015, 09:55:07 am
I cannot guarantee that this is authentic, but here are some pictures circulating on facebook





p144

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Reply #1 on: April 01, 2015, 12:05:19 pm
Why would they go back to carbs? Almost looks like someone stuffed a twin into the GT other than the factory to me.


ace.cafe

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Reply #2 on: April 01, 2015, 01:57:13 pm
Why would they go back to carbs? Almost looks like someone stuffed a twin into the GT other than the factory to me.

They still use the carbs on many Bullets in India. because it is much less expensive for the factory to use carbs.
All the street mechanics there which comprise the backbone of the Enfield service base are well versed in carbs.

The twin looks real to me. It has some Enfield identifiable bits like the oil filler cap, and has support webs in the castings that look like the ones on the UCE. And the front of the timing cover has a hint of the rounded triangular characteristic shape reminiscent of the Interceptor.

I would guess this is a real pic of a prototype twin from Enfield. However , we still don't know if they will release it. But I'd bet they will.
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mattsz

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Reply #3 on: April 01, 2015, 03:23:52 pm
Clutch moved to the right side of the motor?  That is a redesign!

I can't see a drive chain in these pics...


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Reply #4 on: April 01, 2015, 03:51:35 pm
 Hard to tell if that is the clutch itself is on the right or if it just the release mechanism like the Iron Barrel and AVL which uses a thru push rod to the pressure plate on the left side.
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Guaire

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Reply #5 on: April 01, 2015, 03:59:26 pm
It looks like a truly unit construction. That way the clutch might be on the right.
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Ice

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Reply #6 on: April 01, 2015, 05:04:28 pm
 It's been a long wait for the Parallel twin since they first acknowledged the intent to build it.

I hope they get on with it quick like before H-D fills the void with Street 500-750.

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Blue Ridge Wheeltor

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Reply #7 on: April 01, 2015, 05:55:45 pm
What day is today? ;)
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mattsz

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Reply #8 on: April 01, 2015, 06:17:48 pm
What day is today? ;)

Today, sir, I believe, is April Fish day...


Ice

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Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 07:17:14 pm
 The wait for the P twin is very real.

http://www.royalenfields.com/2011/01/royal-enfield-is-working-on-parallel.html

I'd dig up the threads in which we discussed the topic here if the search function weren't on hiatus.
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Blltrdr

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Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 08:09:29 pm
That motor looks old. You would think that even a prototype would look fresh without the heavy oxidation.
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High On Octane

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Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 08:13:00 pm
That motor looks old. You would think that even a prototype would look fresh without the heavy oxidation.

But look at the pipes, they are blue as hell.  That motor had quite a few miles on it.  Not to mention I doubt they'd waste time polishing a prototype motor.  Then take into consideration how long the rumor has been out.  I wouldn't be surprised if that motor is at least a year old.
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Ice

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Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 08:19:56 pm
The cases do look "as cast" which is how I would expect an R&D mule to look.
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Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 08:28:08 pm
Look at the horizontal crank case seam in frontal view picture.  Obviously not a UCE with one case half widened.

 The blue hue in the center of the block off plate located just above the exhaust pipe suggests a port predestined for PAV plumbing.

 The location of the starter motor and the breather box plumbing look REassuringly familiar.



 Adding the link to additional pics at the site mentioned in the watermark.

http://bikeportal.in/news/scoop-world-exclusive-pictures-of-re-inline-750cc-testing-in-a-continental-gt-chassis-1172.html
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 08:46:14 pm by Ice »
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Blltrdr

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Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 09:04:29 pm
I have to say it is an ugly motor. I would hope they could produce something that doesn't look like a Jap motor. Hopefully this is just some pics of someone building their own version a Bullet twin.
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p144

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Reply #15 on: April 01, 2015, 09:36:08 pm
I have to say it is an ugly motor. I would hope they could produce something that doesn't look like a Jap motor. Hopefully this is just some pics of someone building their own version a Bullet twin.




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Reply #16 on: April 01, 2015, 09:50:06 pm
I think it is interesting that all these years they had a verical case split with an open cradle, meaning you had to remove the engine to work inside the case halves, even though the bottom of the frame was open.
Now, on this one, they horizontally split the cases so you could remove the bottom to work on it, but they put it in a closed cradle frame, so it has to come out to work on it anyway.
 :o
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Reply #17 on: April 01, 2015, 10:16:50 pm
That engine has a very Suzuki look about it: the ohc valve adjuster caps especially make me think that. I haven't done any looking but I'm tipping gs500 ?
If Enfield did a twin, would they go ohc or stick with pushrods?
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« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:20:31 pm by gizzo »
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rep_movsd

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Reply #18 on: April 01, 2015, 10:30:54 pm
The rumor is that the factory has 5 twins being tested and refined.
It looks like a SOHC design without pushrods, probably with a slightly shorter stroke. Can't comment much on it now, but if they can make it as good as a 1990s UJM twin, then they have my money.

There is also rumour that there are two bikes codenamed the P1 and the D1

One is a 385cc scrambler sort of offroader to compete with the Hero Impulse, the other a regular 385cc "Bullet" with the same age old looks.

The rumors of horizontally split crankcases were floating from 2012.


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Reply #19 on: April 02, 2015, 12:14:49 am
That motor just looks so bland, UJM indeed! With the line of the CGT frame they could nicely throw in a few styling references to the Rickman-framed Mk2 Interceptor, perhaps a more prominent nod to the Mk2's timing cover without compromising on the internals. Lost opportunity in the making?

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Guaire

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Reply #20 on: April 02, 2015, 12:15:44 am
If they build a strong running twin, it won't get lost.
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Reply #21 on: April 02, 2015, 04:54:01 am
Yes, that motor looks unappetizing.  I think a new p-twin should look fresh, and classic at the same time.  The motor in photo does neither.
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Ice

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Reply #22 on: April 02, 2015, 08:42:23 pm
 I hope the lump in the pic is an engineering proof of concept unit.

 My bet is any production unit will be over built under stressed and have a bit more splash in the visuals department.

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Reply #23 on: April 02, 2015, 10:05:35 pm
+1 It's a prototype, they're not going to waste money making something look good when they don't even know how it's going to run.
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Blltrdr

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Reply #24 on: April 02, 2015, 11:55:35 pm
+1 It's a prototype, they're not going to waste money making something look good when they don't even know how it's going to run.

Prototype or not, not being the key word. Who in there right mind would buy an Enfield with that 70's looking Jap motor in it. C'mon, really, this has got to be a joke, right? This has got to be the decoy prototype.
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Reply #25 on: April 03, 2015, 12:56:51 pm
The pics have also showed up on Hitchcock's forum.

I suppose by looking at it, that they retained the pushrod valve gear, since those adjustment port covers are up there. That also probably means that they didn't include the hydraulic tappets, and went back to solid lifters.
The cover really doesn't look tall enough for overhead cam.

All conjecture, but it is fun to speculate.
 :)
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rep_movsd

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Reply #26 on: April 03, 2015, 01:03:13 pm
Whatever it is, ACE will be able to make it better :)
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ace.cafe

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Reply #27 on: April 04, 2015, 05:58:08 pm
I love the idea that they are finally doing a twin. It's a cool platform that has definite vintage ties to the old, in a certain way.

And it will be a lot of fun for me to tackle a project like this!
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Reply #28 on: April 05, 2015, 12:59:47 am
Just one more article to fan the fire with.   :)
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/royal-enfield-parallel-twin-coming-next-year/26302.html

Royal Enfield people are good people

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« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 01:10:21 am by Bill Harris »


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Reply #29 on: April 05, 2015, 04:17:09 am
Ooh!  If the new alleged Himalayan scrambler is a 410cc overhead cam I may consider buying that instead of a DRZ.    :D
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Reply #30 on: April 06, 2015, 04:12:25 am
This looks like a well tested mule.......the square block sure is ugly........
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Reply #31 on: April 06, 2015, 06:05:39 pm
I hope the lump in the pic is an engineering proof of concept unit........

Looks like one for sure - check out the oil pressure sensor sticking out sideways up by the plug on the right hand side of the head....
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Reply #32 on: April 07, 2015, 06:01:45 am
Well, I for one would be seriously disappointed if that is what their new twin engine looks like.

Yes.  I'm talking looks.

This engine looks much too much like a vague copy of some sort of 1970 Japanese engine rather than a copy of a big British Twin. :(

To my way of thinking, Royal Enfield has an edge on the competition with their historic "old style" frames.  They also have traditionally been a part of the development of the big vertical twins in the 1950-1970 era.
 They should follow this historic tradition with a "Old Style" British Twin look alike with all new, updated and refined internals.
 That combination (with a kick starter lever) would blow away the new Triumph Bonnie on a world wide market place.

A 1970-1980 Japanese looking engine does not even come close to doing that and at least for me, it removes any desire I have for owning one.
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Reply #33 on: April 08, 2015, 07:55:03 am
What if it is not the engine they are testing but rather the frame they testing ?
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Reply #34 on: April 08, 2015, 02:03:27 pm
What if it is not the engine they are testing but rather the frame they testing ?
This is one of the better questions on this thread!!! How to test anything w/o everyone knowing?
 If any part of this thread is real, (I think it is) I am sure that the factory is watching every comment on this forum......Not to mention their competition.  My two cents is prototypes are generally unrefined to ugly.  Hey Factory sales/marketing guys, please don't let the engineers force ugly down your throat!!! Listen to your customers  8)


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Reply #35 on: April 08, 2015, 02:53:24 pm
Another thing that I notice just now is that those header pipes look like a pretty normal size for a 500, and they are all blue, so they are not double wall, and there are 2 of them.
And the carbs look to be a pretty decent size too.
And that is a VERY large oil cooler.

Maybe this is a 1000, and not a 750, and they are going for a big surprise?
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Reply #36 on: April 08, 2015, 05:42:58 pm
I don't think so Tom, i think it is just what it looks like, a beat up testing mule. Do you really think they would go up to 1 litre? Agreed that is a big bugger of a cooler.
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Reply #37 on: April 08, 2015, 06:22:30 pm
I don't know.
Just observing and guessing.
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Reply #38 on: April 08, 2015, 11:27:42 pm
Now that could get tongues wagging!  :) A litre bike Woohoo! However, that contrasts the mid size bike strategy discussed by the RE's CEO. I would just be happy with a highway capable twin where my mates dont always dissappear in the distance :) Is it true that the next bonnie is a litre parrallel twin?
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Reply #39 on: April 09, 2015, 04:04:59 am
I agree with Arizoni; for it to be a clean sheet design of a new twin, I would hope they would make it look better than that...
of course, they could be limited by having to use as much existing parts as possible (pushrods, rockers, valvetrain) in the new design so maybe the 'new' engine has to fit around some old parts....
which would make a 1000cc twin sound more plausible
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High On Octane

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Reply #40 on: April 09, 2015, 11:57:25 am
Another thing that I notice just now is that those header pipes look like a pretty normal size for a 500, and they are all blue, so they are not double wall, and there are 2 of them.
And the carbs look to be a pretty decent size too.
And that is a VERY large oil cooler.

Maybe this is a 1000, and not a 750, and they are going for a big surprise?


I took another look at those pics, and I have to agree with you Ace.  The exhaust pipes are clearly bigger than the 1.5" head pipes on my twin, and closer to the size of a 500cc.  Also, in reference to the heads.  It definitely looks like that there is 2 overhead cams sitting in the top of that head with valve adjustment access.  So, it will be interesting to see if it is in fact DOHC or push rods operating in that motor.  I know that it has been indicated the new 410cc will be an OHC motor, so perhaps they are going the same route with the twin.  Either way, I doubt the production motor will look too much like the prototype motor.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #41 on: April 09, 2015, 12:18:57 pm

I took another look at those pics, and I have to agree with you Ace.  The exhaust pipes are clearly bigger than the 1.5" head pipes on my twin, and closer to the size of a 500cc.  Also, in reference to the heads.  It definitely looks like that there is 2 overhead cams sitting in the top of that head with valve adjustment access.  So, it will be interesting to see if it is in fact DOHC or push rods operating in that motor.  I know that it has been indicated the new 410cc will be an OHC motor, so perhaps they are going the same route with the twin.  Either way, I doubt the production motor will look too much like the prototype motor.
It does look like DOHC camshafts, and I thought that too. But the adjustment covers wouldn't be needed if DOHC. And it looks like not much room for lobe sweep because the cover is so low. So I thought maybe they are rocker shafts.

I'm not really sure, but I'm leaning  toward rocker shafts. But it might be cams.
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Reply #42 on: April 09, 2015, 12:24:44 pm
My thought, was DOHC but with accessible valve adjustment like on the older twins.  That way the valves could be lashed without removing the entire valve cover.  Unorthodox compared to today's standards, but totally possible for RE.
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motomataya

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Reply #43 on: April 09, 2015, 11:15:13 pm
The location of the rocker arm pivot shafts would say it's a single cam. But who knows the secrets inside.


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Reply #44 on: April 09, 2015, 11:59:59 pm
I'm hoping it is a prototype for the 410 cc.  I don't intend to buy one so I don't care what its engine looks like.

Prototypes or "mules" are made to look very much like the final engine is intended to look.

That's the only way things such as cooling, case and cooling fin resonance, accessibility, distortion due to stress (both internally and externally induced) and a number of other important things can be measured and tested.

Whatever it is, the only thing that would change its shape would be a failure of some sort that required redesigning the problem area.
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Ice

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Reply #45 on: August 23, 2015, 08:15:10 pm
Just one of the spy photos of the RE Himalayan



 There are more and better pictures out there.
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Ice

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Reply #46 on: August 23, 2015, 08:27:05 pm
From the web.









 Basing the new single and the new twin on shared design /shared components would make sense cents. 

Comparing the 410cc single in the spy photos with the alleged twin spy photos.
they look shockingly similar IMHO
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 08:29:53 pm by Ice »
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mattsz

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Reply #47 on: August 23, 2015, 10:05:14 pm
Still wondering why they moved the chain back to the left side - or, why did they bother moving it to the right for the new UCE?


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Reply #48 on: August 23, 2015, 10:15:30 pm
The crankcase looks normal for the twin, but looks oversized and out of proportion on the single,  IMO.

Matt,
The chain location comes as a consequence of the transmission layout.  It can be on either side. It appears that they want to use common main components on multiple bikes, and if the common platform has the chain on the left, then that's where it will be on all variants using the common platform.
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Richard230

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Reply #49 on: August 23, 2015, 10:34:02 pm
That twin engine looks to have valve adjustment tappet inspection covers. No more hydraulic lifters, I guess.  On the other hand the redline will likely be higher, allowing the engine to produce more horsepower per displacement than the current 500cc lump.
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mattsz

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Reply #50 on: August 23, 2015, 10:42:03 pm
Ace - I get that... but if it's so arbitrary, I wonder why they bothered to switch it in, what was it, 2009?

Just wondering out loud, that's all...


ace.cafe

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Reply #51 on: August 23, 2015, 11:02:28 pm
Ace - I get that... but if it's so arbitrary, I wonder why they bothered to switch it in, what was it, 2009?

Just wondering out loud, that's all...
My opinion on that is that they  wanted the rear brake actuator on the right side, because the brake pedal was on the right side, and it eliminated the crossover linkage to actuate the left side brake arm with the right side brake pedal. It is better to have the brake pedal on the same side as the brake actuator.

I think on these new bikes, they will likely have rear disc brake, so no linkage is necessary, and they can run the hydraulic brake hose to whichever side they want to.
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Reply #52 on: August 24, 2015, 07:44:52 pm
 What caught my attention was the dome of the clutch covers, the locations an angles of the cable boss and oil fill ports, the placement of the sight glass and what looks like an unused kicker shaft boss.

 It makes sense that the cylinder fins of the twin would need to be larger per cylinder. Using a common platform derived bottom end would make the single cylinder look smallish.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #53 on: August 24, 2015, 08:51:27 pm
What caught my attention was the dome of the clutch covers, the locations an angles of the cable boss and oil fill ports, the placement of the sight glass and what looks like an unused kicker shaft boss.

 It makes sense that the cylinder fins of the twin would need to be larger per cylinder. Using a common platform derived bottom end would make the single cylinder look smallish.
I am thinking that it is not such a good idea.
That is what made the Buell Blast look weird because it was a Harley with one cylinder left off.
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motomataya

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Reply #54 on: August 25, 2015, 12:38:24 am
I agree with ace. It would be good to use many common parts. Certainly not the cases.


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Reply #55 on: September 01, 2015, 09:25:31 pm
The engine in the Himalayan doesn't look so bad, but the one in the Continental frame looks like its sloped forward. I don't care for sloped cylinders. It looks to me like the Engine is definitely not DOHC. It could have a SOHC setup. They could use the rocker gap adjustment ports for that. Those "carbs" could be the same injectors that the Triumph Bonneville uses. They are gong to have to use injectors on the exports and that's the market they are looking to expand, so I'd be surprised if the local versions would even have carbs. Since the Harley 750 Street is outselling the Continental for twice the price, I think the RE have discovered out that there is a bigger market for upscale bikes than they assumed, and their "750" will be very marketable with the upgraded features that the Bullet doesn't have. This Harley deal is probably the best thing that's happened to them, and we the consumers, to get them off their butts and decide to get their twin going before it's too late. They can build a higher tech engine than Hardly and should be able to beat them pricewise.
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Reply #56 on: September 01, 2015, 10:50:31 pm
You don't like sloped cylinders, barenekd?  I guess you really wouldn't like a Panther 650 (Panther folded not long before the British side of RE).  ::) And speaking of sloped cylinders the new BMW K1600GT really went way too far with that idea.  :o
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Guaire

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Reply #57 on: September 02, 2015, 03:19:35 pm
I've been wanting to see the big twin, so RE would have a bike that would handle the US interstates on the way to the fun roads. I invested in a CGT and I'll be looking for the Fireball kit to do exactly that = handle some interstate on the way to the fun roads.
  For me, the Street 750 is more weight, more wheel base and a riding position with my feet in front of me instead of under.
  With the deal I got, my price plus Fireball, will still be less than the HD product.
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barenekd

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Reply #58 on: September 02, 2015, 07:57:54 pm
Actually, I do like the Panther. i had a chance to buy one in the '60s when they were selling off the 650 for, I think it was, $695. It was years later before I actually got to see and ride one, circa 1982. I was surprised how smooth it was, at least at the RPM I was riding it. It had incredible torque. It certainly didn't have any claims to being fast, but it as much like a Bullet, but with much more torque. It was quite small with about a 28" seat height, 54" wheelbase and weighed 385 lbs. Torque peak was at 3500 and I'd guess about 30 lb/ft of torque.
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ROVERMAN

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Reply #59 on: September 02, 2015, 09:59:30 pm
Now that brings back memories of my youth!
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Reply #60 on: September 02, 2015, 10:23:06 pm
I recall seeing those Panther ads in the back of Cycle World during the 1960's. They were shipped to you in a crate and it was all up to you after that.  Sort of like Sears Roebuck motorcycles without the easy access to replacement parts.  But I never had the guts to take a chance on the Panther and instead stayed with various Japanese brands until l bought my 1971 Triumph.  After that episode and a previous short fling with Garelli, I went back to Japanese.  I might add that it seemed to take a long time to sell off Panther's inventory. I seem to recall that those Panther ads ran for years. ???
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Reply #61 on: September 03, 2015, 12:32:08 am
Actually, I do like the Panther. i had a chance to buy one in the '60s when they were selling off the 650 for, I think it was, $695. It was years later before I actually got to see and ride one, circa 1982. I was surprised how smooth it was, at least at the RPM I was riding it. It had incredible torque. It certainly didn't have any claims to being fast, but it as much like a Bullet, but with much more torque. It was quite small with about a 28" seat height, 54" wheelbase and weighed 385 lbs. Torque peak was at 3500 and I'd guess about 30 lb/ft of torque.
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I have read they were the bike for sidecar work in the day.

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Reply #62 on: October 05, 2015, 05:46:33 pm
Now THIS is a nicely done twin motor. Wouldnt ya agree?


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Reply #63 on: October 05, 2015, 07:21:53 pm
IMO, it's a nice "art form" but I much prefer the original old style Musket that engine was made for.
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Reply #64 on: October 05, 2015, 07:38:57 pm
BTW, I heard thru the grapevine that Aniket got an email from RE, stating that they have no plans to use the Musket engine design in any of their bikes.
 :(
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ace.cafe

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Reply #65 on: October 05, 2015, 07:40:18 pm
IMO, it's a nice "art form" but I much prefer the original old style Musket that engine was made for.
I think I'd like it a lot more if it didn't have car tires on it.
 :o
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Reply #66 on: October 05, 2015, 09:39:00 pm
BTW, I heard thru the grapevine that Aniket got an email from RE, stating that they have no plans to use the Musket engine design in any of their bikes.
 :(

If the leaked prototype pics are any clue, they probably dont have a V-twin in mind. I think they did try a carberry twin some years ago. One was potted in Chennai and Mr. Carberry himself confirmed sending them one of his bikes.



ace.cafe

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Reply #67 on: October 05, 2015, 09:40:53 pm
If the leaked prototype pics are any clue, they probably dont have a V-twin in mind. I think they did try a carberry twin some years ago. One was potted in Chennai and Mr. Carberry himself confirmed sending them one of his bikes.
They rejected the Carberry too. Not too long after that, Carberry folded.
 :(
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Reply #68 on: October 06, 2015, 05:01:04 pm
Hopefully the USA might have a few more takers for a RE-based vee twin than Australia, regardless of whatever RE India thinks. It deserves to be a commercial as well as a technical success.

I'm not a fan of whatever style that custom bike is, except that it does show the engine off nicely. I have seen a mock-up photo of a Musket engine in a featherbed frame, which looked superb. Come on, somebody please build one for real!

A.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #69 on: October 06, 2015, 07:25:48 pm
Hopefully the USA might have a few more takers for a RE-based vee twin than Australia, regardless of whatever RE India thinks. It deserves to be a commercial as well as a technical success.

I'm not a fan of whatever style that custom bike is, except that it does show the engine off nicely. I have seen a mock-up photo of a Musket engine in a featherbed frame, which looked superb. Come on, somebody please build one for real!

A.
Chumma and Billy(our featherbed frame builder) are going to build up a featherbed Musket for Chumma, with a Double Fireball power package on it. Probably next year. They are tied up with other work at the moment.
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Reply #70 on: October 09, 2015, 02:08:36 am
Is that a double GP Fireball? At least they'll have time to think about some non-RE braking up front, perhaps a 4LS Grimeca/Fontana, or maybe something with Brembo written on it!

A.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #71 on: October 09, 2015, 10:21:58 pm
Is that a double GP Fireball? At least they'll have time to think about some non-RE braking up front, perhaps a 4LS Grimeca/Fontana, or maybe something with Brembo written on it!

A.
Adrian,
The last we discussed it, he said he wants to use a pair of regular Fireball heads on the V-Twin, and use the GP head on his single Fireball.

The V-Twin with a pair of GP heads might be getting into a high stress area with the drive line, and I don't think he wanted to get too involved with that. The power with a pair of regular Fireball heads is much more manageable for the drive line.
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Reply #72 on: October 16, 2015, 09:56:54 pm
this is getting exciting.
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