[krimp]

So, I have noticed that even when warmed up, I can smell gasoline coming from the exhaust. This tells me that I am not burning the fuel completely and probably need to adjust the air/fuel mixture. Keep in mind that I live and ride at more than a mile above sea level, so it is very possible that the bike is not getting enough air. First question is simple, where do I make that adjustment? Second question, am I over thinking this?

[Arizoni]

If you are riding a fuel injected model, there is no way to adjust the air/fuel ratio (without spending over $350 for an aftermarket gizmo).

I suggest that you take your motorcycle out for a nice long ride.  Then, come  home and remove the spark plug.
If the insulator tip is off white, slightly yellow/tan or light to medium brown you don' t have a problem so don't worry about it.

If the spark plug tip is sooty black, check your motorcycles air filter to see if it is dirty, wet or oil soaked.  If it is, replace the filter.

If your motorcycle is fuel injected, it has an altitude sensing device and it should be very capable of adjusting the air/fuel ratio for your elevation.
It is made to operate up to an elevation of 18,000 feet to accommodate those little hills in Northern India (The Himalayas).

[SteveThackery]

Just writing to second what Arizoni said.  If you could alter the air/fuel ratio it wouldn't comply with the emissions laws. 

Your bike has a sensor in the exhaust pipe (you can see it near the cylinder head) which continuously monitors the mixture and sends the information back to the electronic control unit (ECU).  The ECU uses that to continuously adjust the mixture, ensuring it is spot on at all times.

The reason for this is that the three-way catalytic converter in the exhaust won't work properly unless the mixture is exactly correct chemically.

The outcome is that you can't alter the mixture even if you wanted to, except by modifying the system.

By the way, even a blocked air filter shouldn't make it run rich, because the pressure sensor in the inlet manifold can detect it and inform the ECU.  Also, the ECU still uses the sensor in the exhaust to measure the mixture, and will inject less fuel if it is running rich for any reason - even a blocked air filter.  (Obviously there are reasonable limits to this, and a really badly blocked filter will probably push the system beyond the point where it can compensate.)

[High On Octane]

Have you changed out the Bosch spark for an NGK yet?  If you haven't it might make a difference.

[Russ]

+1 on the plug. I can't believe the difference a NGK makes....

[Kevin Mahoney]

Arizoni's advice on this matter is 100% dead on. WHATEVER you do don't fool with the Throttle position sensor thinking you are changing the idle.

[suitcasejefferson]

Do not mess with the EFI. I don't know where you live, but there are no emissions laws for motorcycles in my state. My EFI is running lean, as indicated by the plug. Rather than spending several hundred more dollars on more electronics, I am going with a carburetor. Also replacing the cat con exhaust with something else. I can work on those. Air cooled engines need to be run on the rich side here in the Phoenix, AZ area, due to the extreme heat in the summer. A rich mixture is all that keeps them from melting down.

[krimp]

Thank you everyone for your input. I haven't made any changes and won't until I'm done re-reading your input. Due to scheduling, I won't have a chance to look at it until Friday night, early Saturday morning. Other than this issue, everything else is working great. Even this is not a big issue, but something I noticed.

First stop, the air filter to make sure it is not oil soaked. Second stop, the plug.

[NorEaster]

RE really needs to make the EFI more programmable after it has left the factory.
Whether the owner be riding the bike in the Himalayas or the Rockies or along the coast at sea level, they should make it so that their are some versions of programming readily available for the dealer to apply to the EFI.
I see all these articles on "how they want to get in the game" perhaps making things more adjustable would help.

[Arizoni]

In order for Royal Enfield to supply different programs for the computer they would have to rerun and pass all of the tests required by DOT and the EPA.

That's an expensive amount of testing and there is always a chance that something unrelated to the program could happen that would cause the motorcycle to fail.

Being a huge bureaucracy, the DOT and EPA don't care what caused the test to fail.  They only look at the results, shrug their shoulders and say, "It failed."

Then we get into the propriety issues with Keihin who basically owns the design.
As I understand it, Keihin is paranoid about anyone messing with their programs or changing the program that Royal Enfield uses.
I'm sure Keihin would also charge an arm and a legs worth of money to come up with a new program and like all new programs there's a good chance it would have some bugs in it that cause more problems than what we've got.

As a side note, the fuel injection and program on my 2011 has worked flawlessly at elevations of 1000 feet to over 8500 feet above sea level for 17,000 miles of enjoyable riding. 

[NorEaster]

Aren't there other motorcycle companies that have EFI units that are more easily adjusted?

[Ducati Scotty]

Used to be, not much any more.  EPA restrictions make it so that they want to lock the settings down.  I know that the one setting left on some ECUs about 10 years ago was the idle CO, the digital equivalent of an idle mixture screw.  It's now tough to adjust or overwrite anything.  On my '03 Ducati I needed TechnoResearch's aftermarket software to do it.  On Yamahas a few years back, you could adjust it with some key turns and button pushes on the gauges.

There are some aftermarket companies and hobbyists that crack certain ECUs giving them the ability to overwrite the internal maps for fuel and ignition timing.  Usually, you tell them what you want and mail in your ECU for them to mod and send back.  Of course they generally due this on more popular models where there is demand and money to be made.  A popular one is disabling the ignition immobilizer on Magnetti Marelli ECUs for Ducati.  They occasionally malfunction leaving a legitimate owner out of luck, the only legitimate option being to buy a matched set of gauges and ECU which is around $2000 new.  Or a few hundred to have it cracked.

You can adjust the TPS on the RE, the setting is in the service manual.  IIRC it's 0.6V + or - 0.2V, don't quote me.  It's worth checking it, if it's too high it will run rich, too low and it runs lean.  You can check it at the throttle body but it's easier to access the wires at the ECU.  You can tweak it a bit into the higher range of acceptable for a bit more performance.  If you go to the top end of allowed spec it will run poorly and be too rich.  There's no reason to go past that.

Whatever you do, do not touch the screws that control the butterfly on the throttle body.  They are paint marked for a reason.  The physical angle is set at the factory and the ECU needs that as a base to work properly.  The only things you can touch on the TB are the big brass air bypass screw on to to adjust the ilde, and the position of the TPS to set the correct voltage.  The TPS is on the inside of the TB and you need a Torx to adjust it.  And it's really sensitive and a pain to get just right.  Most bikes are like that.

Scott

[SteveThackery]

RE really needs to make the EFI more programmable after it has left the factory.
Whether the owner be riding the bike in the Himalayas or the Rockies or along the coast at sea level, they should make it so that their are some versions of programming readily available for the dealer to apply to the EFI.

I think you make a good argument, but in fact there's no technical reason why the existing ECU couldn't handle a wide range of altitudes.  Indeed, perhaps it already does?

For systems without a separate barometric pressure sensor (which includes our Bullets), it is quite common to use the MAP for that purpose, in the period between switching on the ignition and cranking the engine.  I don't know whether the MAP is used in that way in our bikes, but there's no good reason why it couldn't be.

Again, I'm speculating, but I wonder just how much of a business advantage RE would gain by making the ECU reprogrammable.  I suspect it might be very little, and would probably involve complicated negotiations with Keihin (perhaps even having to switch to a different supplier).  I suspect they've considered it, and come to the view that for a bike like the Bullet, which has no performance aspirations at all, it's more trouble that it's worth.

[SteveThackery]

You can adjust the TPS on the RE, the setting is in the service manual....... It's worth checking it, if it's too high it will run rich.

Only for those parts of the map where it runs open loop.  That is, at high engine speeds and large throttle openings.  For the rest of the time - including idle - it runs closed loop, where the O2 sensor has priority over all other sensors in order to keep the mixture stoichiometric.  When running closed loop the position of the TPS has no effect on the mixture (I've tried it).

To be specific, when idling and closed loop (i.e. the engine must have been running for at least 90 seconds, even after a hot start), altering the TPS makes absolutely no difference at all to the mixture until its output gets to 1.4V (normal setting is 0.6V +/- 0.2V), at which point the engine suddenly cuts out.

If anyone tells you they've altered the idle mixture by moving the TPS, it's because they didn't let it run for 90s before making the adjustment (thus it was running open loop, where the TPS does make a difference).  It's easy to get misled - it fooled me to start with.

[lemming]

Only for those parts of the map where it runs open loop.  That is, at high engine speeds and large throttle openings.  For the rest of the time - including idle - it runs closed loop, where the O2 sensor has priority over all other sensors in order to keep the mixture stoichiometric.  When running closed loop the position of the TPS has no effect on the mixture (I've tried it).

Wouldn't this ^^^^^ indicate that adjusting the TPS sensor position to the high side of the acceptable range would be useful for those bikes running an aftermarket exhaust and K&N filter, so as to reduce the lean condition at idle and full open throttle?

Somewhere in another thread that I cannot now find, someone was asking whether there could be long term damage from running too lean with the aftermarket exhaust and K&N filter, and the consensus seemed to be that should be fine, but in open loop it could be an issue. If one spends a fair amount of time pinning the throttle, would adjusting the TPS toward the upper end of the acceptable range mitigate this concern, at least somewhat?

Addit: Found the thread.... http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,21015.0.html

[gremlin]

........the Bullet, which has no performance aspirations at all.......

hoof-in-mouth ?

[Ducati Scotty]

Steve, I'd agree with you that the TPS really shouldn't make any difference when you're running closed loop but there are two things to consider.

1) If it's out of spec the bike won't run right.  Set it to spec.

2) Many people have adjusted it and noted smoother throttle response and better power in the mid range.  That may be subjective, but several people have increased their top end speed by a notable margin.  You can talk all day about the theory but bikes have been made to go faster at top end with just this adjustment.

Scott

[lemming]

So...I just have to ask. Did you get the memo, the one about the new cover sheets we are using on the TPS reports? Yeaaahh.....I'll go ahead and send you out another copy.
Office Space TPS Reports: http://youtu.be/Fy3rjQGc6lA

[Ducati Scotty]

I'm just not gonna go.

[lemming]

I wouldn't say I've been "missing" work, Bob....

[SteveThackery]

Many people have adjusted it and noted smoother throttle response and better power in the mid range.  That may be subjective.........

Yes, I think it is.  I will never trust phrases like "smoother" and "more responsive" because they are totally subjective and thus unreliable for any scientific purpose.  It is impossible to remove your expectations from the equation.  It's another example of the placebo effect, I suppose.

......but several people have increased their top end speed by a notable margin.  You can talk all day about the theory but bikes have been made to go faster at top end with just this adjustment.

Well, I talk about the theory simply because all bikes have to obey the laws of physics.   

However, when running flat out or accelerating hard the bike runs open loop, so under those circumstances the ECU does indeed use the TPI as one of the parameters to set the amount of fuel injected.  Therefore we find ourselves in vigorous agreement!  I have no problem believing that the top speed can be improved (or worsened) by tweaking the TPI.  Ditto for full throttle acceleration.  What you can't do is alter the idle mixture or the light-load mixture with it.

Incidentally, one of my plans for this year is to run the bike for an extensive period (weeks) open loop so I can experiment with changing the TPI and measure the difference.

My flight recorder now monitors road speed as well, so by doing a few test acceleration runs on a nearby empty highway I might be able to record a difference.  Each run will be a full throttle acceleration from 40mph to 70mph.  By measuring the gradient on the recorded speed graph I can calculate the acceleration. 

On a low power bike like ours I think it might be hard to eliminate the effect of wind direction (although I will be doing runs in both directions).  I expect the signal-to-noise ratio in my measured data will be pretty poor.  Maybe tests in a lower gear - 30 to 60 in fourth, perhaps - would be better.

Right now I'm wrestling with getting a good readout of the fuel injection pulses.  Their length seems to vary drastically over very short intervals, even when everything else is held steady.  I'm beginning to wonder if it might sometimes use multiple pulses per cycle, or something.  I might have to make a special high speed datalogger for it, so I can see in more detail exactly what those pulses are doing.

As always, I will report any findings here.  Today, though, I found out why the flight recorder kept crashing every few minutes.  Turned out to be the pox-ridden inline fuse I'd fitted: it was giving an intermittent connection.  Removing it completely has effected a complete cure.

[SteveThackery]

Wouldn't this ^^^^^ indicate that adjusting the TPS sensor position to the high side of the acceptable range would be useful for those bikes running an aftermarket exhaust and K&N filter, so as to reduce the lean condition at idle and full open throttle?

At full throttle, yes, but not at idle because it runs closed loop at idle.

Somewhere in another thread that I cannot now find, someone was asking whether there could be long term damage from running too lean with the aftermarket exhaust and K&N filter, and the consensus seemed to be that should be fine, but in open loop it could be an issue. If one spends a fair amount of time pinning the throttle, would adjusting the TPS toward the upper end of the acceptable range mitigate this concern, at least somewhat?

I think it should, yes.  In truth I don't have the data to know how much difference a 0.1V tweak to the TPI makes to the amount of injected fuel.  But in theory I believe you are exactly right, and there's no way it can do any harm, in my view.

[suitcasejefferson]

First of all, EFI is not there for the benefit of the consumer. That seems to be the impression on every car and motorcycle forum I have ever belonged to. EFI is there to meet EPA standards, something I don't give a rat's ass about. I want something I can work on and I want the vehicle to run right. Carbs have always provided me with that, if they are set up properly. Long before EFI, the EPA required plugs over the mixture screws, so that owners could not mess with them. It was not long before people found you could simply remove the plugs. Then EFI came out as the solution to that. Again, it didn't take long before someone could modify the signals being sent to the ECU with a device like the DynoJet Power Commander. Fortunately this device exists, for those who want to or have to retain their EFI. It allows you to tune your EFI the way YOU want it, not the way the EPA wants it. It's a bit on the expensive side, but if it allows you to overcome EPA standards and make your vehicle run right, it's worth every penny.

The EPA is fully aware this is going on, and will no doubt try again to require a tamperproof system. Hopefully if they do, someone will come up with a solution  fairly quickly. You should not have to put up with a vehicle that runs like crap because of the EPA.

[lemming]

As an unabashed dirtbag, I have no intention currently of spending $400 on either a PC-V or a carb conversion kit, however much I may desire them. I got the pipe and filter for a steal from a local owner who was selling his bike, and I like the look and sound. Also, the vibes have a much different character, and are less harsh by far. I do not much care about wringing out more power, but if tweaking the TPS (don't forget the new cover sheet!!!) position will mitigate potential for a too-lean condition at WOT for this current set-up, and allow me to run this combination more safely, then that seems like a win for me.

[gremlin]

.......I'm wrestling with getting a good readout of the fuel injection pulses.  Their length seems to vary drastically over very short intervals, even when everything else is held steady.  I'm beginning to wonder if it might sometimes use multiple pulses per cycle, or something. .......

Asynchronous -vs- Synchronized metering, to be sure.

One thing you might consider is integrating the pulse duration(s) and period(s) with an RC circuit then read the voltage from multiple engine cycles and back out your data from that.

[suitcasejefferson]

EFI systems, even the relatively simple one on the Enfield, are far to complicated for me to mess with. Especially without all the required computerized diagnostic equipment. I spent several years working on OBDII systems on cars/trucks, and they are a nightmare. Many people think that a simple $50 code scanner is all you need to troubleshoot them. That is not the case at all. There are hundreds of codes, and a few of them actually will point you in the right direction. But most of them are very vague. A code might say "misfire cylinder #4" That's it. There are a LOT of things that can cause that. You need a piece of very expensive equipment, and the manufacturers model specific software to go any farther. You can test every part, and it will show good. Erase the code, and it will come back in a few days, because the part at fault has an intermittent failure. Many times you just have to get lucky, or replace a suspected part without knowing for sure if it is bad. EFI is not for DIY mechanics, unless you want to use a commercially available electronic tuner.

I was unfortunate enough to have been given a 1985 Goldwing LTD, with EFI. Back then it was all analog, and much simpler. The ECU actually had built in LEDs that flashed codes, and the manual told you what they meant. There were 7 different sensors, one being the TPS. It was marked, and installed with a bolt that the head was designed to break off of when tightened. You had to drill it out. This bike had a completely separate idle circuit, which used no longer available parts. In order to make it idle, I did move the TPS just a tiny bit. It worked. But it had already been tried many times by other forum members, and was known to work. And this was a much simpler analog system, not the fragile digital stuff we have today. Nevertheless, problems with the fuel injection and lack of parts were the reason I wound up getting rid of that bike, and probably why it was given to me in the first place.

I have had issues with carburetors before, but I have never been unable to fix one, and tune it properly. And with the Enfield, I am not at all interested in performance at all. It's my relaxation ride. I like to just go out and rumble down the road at 55-60 mph, enjoying the sound and feel

[gremlin]

........with the Enfield, I am not at all interested in performance at all. It's my relaxation ride. I like to just go out and rumble down the road at 55-60 mph, enjoying the sound and feel

That, my friend, is what is so superior about (current) EFI systems.  No fussing with float height, or, slide springs, or, jets.

turn the key, wait for the pump to shut down, then kick it (once) to life.  ride, eat, sleep, repeat, for YEARS without worry.

I also dismiss your assertion that "EFI is not for DIY mechanics" the work that SteveThackery is doing and the community of volunteers that helped craft the mega-squirt and micro-squirt projects prove EFI is accessable to DIY'ers with current (21st century) technology skills.   I agree though, "mid-century modern" mechanics will be flummoxed by EFI system diagnosis.

[pmanaz1973]

I have to second the love for the EFI- as a 40-something. I cut my teeth on carbs. I understand them, have worked on a rebuilt many of them.  I do have to say though, I will never go back to one.  EFI is just so damn easy and reliable and with a small amount of study I feel rather comfortable with them.  Carbs, while a great "limp it home" device, are just a pain in the ass and when I had a bike with 4 of them, they were downright maddening.  Swear I spent more time trying to balance and adjust them then I did ridding the bike.  But as the old saying goes - To each his own and peace unto them.

[Ducati Scotty]

+2.  I grew up on carbs and can rebuild an air cooled VW carb in my sleep, because I had to.  Like points ignition, they need constant maintenance.  Once you get EFI set the way you want it, it just works.  I've had several bikes with EFI and once you learn how it works it's easier to deal with than a carb.  My old Honda Civic went 217k miles and I literally never did anything to the fuel injection. 

I'm a bit sad I'll probably never have to teach my son about carburetors but there will be other things to fill that void I'm sure.

Scott

[pmanaz1973]

Until they start making lawnmowers, etc. EFI- You'll still have at least the basics to pass down to your son.  Although a EFI lawnmowers sounds really nice each spring when I'm pulling bowls and spraying varnish out of my stuck carbs.

[Ducati Scotty]

I live on Portland, OR.  We're past EFI for lawn mowers.  We're on to electric.  Should I ever get a house with a lawn I'm totally getting one.  Then I can mow the lawn at night after work instead of taking half my Saturday every weekend.  Electric means no noise to bother the neighbors

Scott

[ROVERMAN]

EFI is like any computer, it's only as good as the information it is programmed with. There is no excuse for producing an EFI system with driveability  problems, none whatsoever. Any manufacturer worth their salt can comply with any current regulations, but do they have the money, the talent, or the incentive? Or, does their customer (RE) have the money, talent, and incentive i should say.
Roverman.

[SteveThackery]

Asynchronous -vs- Synchronized metering, to be sure.

Maybe.  I'm not as sure as you, just yet, but certainly it's possible.

One thing you might consider is integrating the pulse duration(s) and period(s) with an RC circuit then read the voltage from multiple engine cycles and back out your data from that.

Gremlin, that is a wonderful idea and I could kick myself for not thinking of it myself.  Sometimes you can get just too close to a problem to see the overall picture.  Best of all it's trivially simple for me to implement, so I'll be doing just that tomorrow.

Thanks!

[SteveThackery]

That, my friend, is what is so superior about (current) EFI systems.  No fussing with float height, or, slide springs, or, jets.

turn the key, wait for the pump to shut down, then kick it (once) to life.  ride, eat, sleep, repeat, for YEARS without worry.

I totally, totally agree.  I was massively "into" carburettors and became a genuine geek on all the technical aspects: the history of their development, the various different technologies, the makes, the models, the quirks.....  Even now I feel a fondness whenever I see one (unless it's an Amal Mk1 Concentric, of course, when I feel only contempt).

HOWEVER, I was always aware that even the very best of the Dell 'Orto pumpers, or twin-choke Webers, or Bings, were always going to be superbly refined examples of a dreadful idea.  (The dérailleur bicycle gear is another such.)  Carburation is tremendously difficult to do well, and impossible to do perfectly.  Fuel injection, on the other hand, makes fuel delivery simple, simple, simple.  Whilst we could argue about "perfection", the ease with which a modern FI system can be made to work almost to perfection, with exceptional control over the air:fuel mixture, for years and years and for less than the price of a decent carb, makes it a no-brainer for me.

[SteveThackery]

EFI is like any computer, it's only as good as the information it is programmed with. There is no excuse for producing an EFI system with driveability  problems, none whatsoever.

That's an interesting point, and one which I don't hold as surely as you.  Bearing in mind how many bikes have less-than-perfect behaviour from their fuel injection systems, I think it might actually be quite difficult.

Believe it or not, the most "perfect" carburation I've used in recent years was the CV carburettor on my Electra X.  Yes, it ran very weak.  But it had absolutely flawless progression off idle and off the overrun (the one area FI bikes really seem to struggle); it had no "yank-the-throttle" flat-spotting or any other bad habits at all.  This is very much due to it being a CV carb (in my extensive experience, the "sweetest" of carb types to drive).  Unfortunately, being a CV carb, fairly small and tuned very weak, it could never be the best choice if you are looking for high performance.

[mattsz]

One thing you might consider is integrating the pulse duration(s) and period(s) with an RC circuit then read the voltage from multiple engine cycles and back out your data from that.

Gremlin, that is a wonderful idea and I could kick myself for not thinking of it myself.  Sometimes you can get just too close to a problem to see the overall picture.  Best of all it's trivially simple for me to implement, so I'll be doing just that tomorrow.

Thanks!

What in the hell are you guys talking about?

 

[SteveThackery]

What in the hell are you guys talking about?

Dunno, mate, I just wanted to sound as smart as Mr Gremlin.  His growth is exponential, whereas I'm in exponential decay.  :-(

[gremlin]

What in the hell are you guys talking about?

 

pulses have the following fundamental properties:

1. Amplitude  (how high is it?)
2. Duration    (how long does it last?)
3. Period        (how often does it appear?)

by using an energy storage device (capacitor) and a metered bleed-down (resistor) one can create a filter that will combine all three properties and provide a single result.

Then, by knowing 2 of the 3 factors - you can reconstruct an accurate estimate of the third.

In this case Steve will know the amplitude and period, and will accurately predict (map) the pulse duration.

[SteveThackery]

In this case Steve will know the amplitude and period, and will accurately predict (map) the pulse duration.

So you missed my little joke then:  "...exponential"?  The RC charge/discharge curve?  I tell ya mate, I'm a real blast at parties.

Lab experiments done today, road test tomorrow, weather permitting.  Report here tomorrow evening.

[gremlin]

So you missed my little joke then:  "...exponential"?  The RC charge/discharge curve?  I tell ya mate, I'm a real blast at parties......

Cheers !

[suitcasejefferson]

I live on Portland, OR.  We're past EFI for lawn mowers.  We're on to electric.  Should I ever get a house with a lawn I'm totally getting one.  Then I can mow the lawn at night after work instead of taking half my Saturday every weekend.  Electric means no noise to bother the neighbors

Scott

I will be going to Portland in the next few days. Have relatives there. I have no use for electric landscaping equipment. I couldn't count the number of electric mowers, weed eaters, and chain saws I have burned up. The reason? They simply don't have enough power. Put a heavy load on them and you can small smoke almost immediately. That's the windings overheating. They will quickly burn up if you keep running the equipment. Fortunately there is no shortage of gas powered equipment here in Phoenix. I have a high dollar weed whacker (not enough grass for a mower) and a Mcculloch chain saw. I have one dead pine tree and some railroad ties to cut up, then I'll probably get rid of that. Must have room for more bikes.

[SteveThackery]

I promised I'd report, although actually it's taking longer than I realised.

In a nutshell, the basic approach of using an RC integrator to get a DC voltage which represents the injector 'on' time is working OK.  HOWEVER - there is a complication.  At idle the battery voltage drops significantly - especially when all the lights are on - and this tends to swamp the changes due to the fuel injection pulse width variations. 

For those who care about such things, the FI pulses are negative going, and at idle are very narrow so the RC integrator sits almost up at 5V.  Unfortunately, this means that the battery voltage has a disproportionately large effect on that DC voltage (compared with changes in the pulse width), hence the undue sensitivity.

No problem: I'm going to introduce a little bit of electronics to regenerate those pulses at exactly 5V regardless of the incoming pulse voltage, and then I can integrate it and read it with great accuracy.

For those who've got this far but don't understand any of it, don't worry - you haven't missed anything!

[gremlin]

......For those who've got this far but don't understand any of it, don't worry - you haven't missed anything!

Hysteresis to you too !
 

[mattsz]

There was a time when I might have followed you guys, but alas, no.  It's been almost 30 years since I was messing around with that stuff...

[pmanaz1973]

SteveThackery- sounds like RE would be foolish not to hire you onto the R&D staff upon your graduation.  You are getting into aspects of this machine that I suspect few people even dreamed up. 

Keep at it and get this whole thing rung out.  Good on ya!

[Ducati Scotty]

I have no use for electric landscaping equipment. I couldn't count the number of electric mowers, weed eaters, and chain saws I have burned up. The reason? They simply don't have enough power. Put a heavy load on them and you can small smoke almost immediately. That's the windings overheating. They will quickly burn up if you keep running the equipment.

Funny, I never would have expected an opinion like that from you Suitcase.

[SteveThackery]

Why, thank you, Mr pmanaz1973! 

As you may have heard, RE are setting up some kind of Technical Centre in the UK, in Leicestershire, and I would love to work there when I've graduated (I'm doing a BEng degree in Motorcycle Engineering).  I'm just coming to the end of my first year, so I may well be too late for the main recruiting drive.

I wish it were a bit closer to where I live (Nottingham) - if I did get a job there, it would be a heck of a commute.  Anyway, this is all wishful thinking at the moment!

[Arizoni]

Give my best to the Sheriff there.
I understand he's been given a bad time by some of the local forest ruffians from around there.

Of course I may be mistaken but I did hear he got stuck in an outhouse when he tried using a "Little John" there.   

(I know.  Yank humor is weird.    )

[krimp]

Well, I pulled my plug. I have an NGK B5XX. It should be burning more than hot enough. Although I don't have a pic, there was a bit of carbonization on the plug. At this point, I think I should move up to premium fuel to see what kind of difference it makes.

[Ducati Scotty]

Have you taken the throttle body off before?  There's a tiny notch in the spacer plate for the fuel to pass by from the injector.  If it's misaligned the fuel could be hitting it, might mess with the mixture.

Scott

[krimp]

I haven't touched the throttle body.

[rattonshaw]

I'm a newcomer to Royal Enfield, but I've just about read my way through the forum.  Still some way to go, but I've learnt a lot.  I hope this topic is the most appropriate place to ask my question. Now for my problem.

My bike is a 2014 500 EFI Electra De Lux with 3,200 miles on it, recently acquired.  I've probably done 30 miles on it in assessing its suitability for a green laner/trail bike.

I installed a silencer from a HD XL1200 (part no. 65589-00A) to reduce weight and bulk, and as fitted by many other owners, then rode the bike about 10 miles, mostly motorway (highway) at 60-65 mph on the speedometer.  Took the spark plug out when I got back home and it's burning lean.

I re-installed the OEM silencer, then repeated the exercise;  same speeds and roads.  Took the spark plug out when I got back home and it's still burning lean.

So the bike is burning lean regardless of the silencer that is fitted.  The throttle position sensor (TPS) is adjusted within spec at 0.59 V; the MIL lamp remains extinguished after start-up so no trouble codes; an NGK BP6ES spark plug is fitted.

The only adjustment I have is the TPS; will setting the TPS voltage closer to 0.8 V enrichen the mixture, or is there something else at fault that I'm missing?

Am I correct in thinking photos must be on a hosting site?

[rattonshaw]

I've had another attempt at correcting the lean mixture indicated on the spark plug  of my 2014 Electra.

I checked for any air leaks by running the engine on idle, then spraying a flammable aerosol around and onto the inlet manifold and throttle body.  No change in engine speed.  Next step was adjusting the TPS to 0.75 V.  I took the bike out again, still with the OEM silencer; same speeds and roads as before.  Took the spark plug out when I got back home and it's still burning lean.

Next step was to remove the injector and clean it.  I rigged an input hose to apply carburetter cleaner from an aerosol into the injector, then energised the injector's solenoid from a 12 V battery.  The injector seemed to be spraying ok with a cone shape and no spluttering.  I took the bike out yet again on the same speeds and roads as before.  Took the spark plug out when I got back home and same as previously; it's still burning lean.  (Oh, with the addition that I sliced my finger tip open on the spark plug cap.)

Since the MIL lamp remains extinguished when riding, I have to assume there's no problem with any of the sensors.  Does anyone have a clue what the problem could be?

[Ove]

As I understand it, to meet Euro 4 and Euro 5 emission standards, the bikes are now set up to run lean. On mine, I change the oil more frequently, as it will be running hotter, then ride and not worry about it. The fuel cut is more noticeable on Euro 4/5 motors off the throttle, but on the whole, it doesn't seem to affect reliability.

[Crabsapper]

Google Leanburn.

[Boxerman]

I have a 2009 Electra, my plug colour looks similar to yours.
What's the problem?

Frank

[Richard230]

I have read that the cleaning additives in "top tier" modern gasolines, together with lean-burn engines, can make a spark plug look like that, even when everything is working perfectly. Personally, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I guess if you really wanted to try something easy and cheap to see if it makes a difference you could install a slightly colder plug. 

[rattonshaw]

Thanks guys.  Well, you're never too old to learn something new.  I was taught that the spark plug, including the porcelain insulator should be a light tan colour to indicate a correct air/fuel ratio.  Turns out that was wrong  .  It was probably a good indication in the days of leaded fuel, early wear of piston rings and inlet valve guides, no lean burn engines or Euro emission regulations; who knows.

Anyway, after your feedback, I did some research and came up with a few sites that appeared to know what they were talking about.  In particular, I found the image below that supports the view that the base on the body of the spark plugs indicates mixture; the colour of the porcelain insulator indicates if the plug is working in the correct temperature range.

If anything, my bike is running slightly rich!  I think I'll just ride it.  Thanks again.

[Ove]

And to do the check right, you need to be under load at reasonable revs, then clutch and cut the ignition.

TBH, my plug looks like yours. I had an aftermarket open pipe for 2000 miles and switched back 100 miles ago. Didnt seem to make any difference, so I'd assume that's what the ECU is aiming for 

[rattonshaw]

It’s difficult to do a mixture test-and-check correctly in the part of the UK where I live  .  It’s densely populated so the roads are motorways (highways) where you can’t pull over except in an emergency, A-roads that are clearways where you can’t park up, or B-roads that can also be clearways where again you can’t park up.  Other roads are just not suited to conduct a test and check.

It’s interesting what you said about your open pipe not seeming to make much difference to the mixture.  I was trying to be careful in my choice of an alternative silencer to the OEM item because of the limited adjustments that the EFI system seems to be capable of achieving.  At least, that’s the impression I get from various topics on the forum.

Anyway, back to the drawing board  .  When I get the time, I’ll refit the HD XL1200 silencer, do a test-and-check of the mixture, then adjust the TPS voltage if necessary.

[Boxerman]

It ain't broke - don't fix it! 

Frank

[Richard230]

It ain't broke - don't fix it! 

Frank

That is what I learned after graduating from the School of Hard Knocks.   

[hedgetrimmer]

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/41122

[axman88]

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/41122

Doesn't this gadget only work on bikes that have an intake manifold temperature sensor?

[Haggis]

Correct, euro4 and onwards.
No use to me with a euro3.