Author Topic: Ordered 612 kit, need advice (Read 20682 times)

capt.logs · **on:** March 11, 2015, 07:11:07 am

Had my piston fall apart on my 500 last year and upon inspection I had quite significant side to side play in the rod. So I determined that a total teardown was going to be in order, so might as well do it right and geart the 612 kit.

Now I have rebuilt engines but have no experience with motorcycles. Any advice for me going into this? Any good articles, or manuals that I can get my hands on to help with this rebuild? Tools that I must have? I've consider leaving this job to a shop but there isn't any with experience with these older english bikes and they all charge an arm and a leg.

I will be making another thread to show the progress I make. Hoping to rebuild this better than the indian mechanics did in the first place.

=Jason-

ERC · **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2015, 01:13:53 pm

Get yourself a service manual. That will help you decide what tools you need. When you get the 612 kit follow the instructions given you with the kit for proper reassembly. ERC

Damon · **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2015, 03:30:24 pm

Definitely get a service manual or the Snidal Manual. I prefer the Snidal! I just rebuilt mine with the 612 kit myself! I'd never worked on a motorcycle before but had plenty of automotive repair experience.
it is a straight forward installation kit with just about everything you will need. the hardest part for me was grinding in the timing side for clearance with the big Cams. Not sure what year your bike is but this is a really good time to go back to the original crankcase Breather system as described By Ace. Make sure you clean everything and then clean it again! Bag and tag all the small parts as you remove them and take pictures so you can refer to them upon reassembly to get it in the right places and order.
You will need a torch or an Oven that you can heat up the cases to get the old main bearings out and the new ones in.
I am not sure where you live and your altitude. I am in Seattle, WA and am at sea level. I used both spacers under the Barrel and the stock base gasket and it still wasn't enough to get the compression to an acceptable level. I had to make 2 more base gaskets and install them to get it to 92 octane gas levels. So be very careful and check that, you don't want to replace the piston again from detonation.
Just take your time and it should be really easy to do. And I have to say I love the power increase, it just feels like a totally different bike.

Damon

Kevin Mahoney · **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2015, 03:30:24 pm

When I approach a new (to me) engine or vehicle I purchase every different manual that is available. Each manual will have a bit of information that the other manuals will not. I find this approach invaluable.

I would agree with ERC about this totally. I would also make very liberal use of this forum. You will have to separate good advice from urban legends and wives tales but that is pretty easy and 90% of what you get is really good advice.

capt.logs · **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2015, 06:09:45 pm

Any good links to download the service manual or decent place to buy it online? Taking the engine off was pretty straight forward, about to start disassembling the engine. My main concern will be getting the tolerances all dead on since I dont have much experience doing that. Any good threads here of someone installing the 612 kit?

I drove this bike around India for 3 years and was amazed how gutless it was when I brought it to the states. Im hoping the 612 kit will make the bike more useful here.

Kevin Mahoney · **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2015, 06:18:03 pm

It will be faster, but please don't think you can make it something it's not. At the end of the day it is a 1930's engine. You will have great top of the line components in it, but it must still be treated like your favorite child, gently and lovingly.

Blltrdr · **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2015, 08:05:37 pm

You will probably have to update your clutch pack or maybe even to a Newby primary/clutch because of the HP increase. If your bike has the 4 spd you might want to look into the close ratio gears and the right side shift conversion w/sealed bearings or try and find a 5 spd trans.

If you haven't ordered the 612 kit yet you might look at the Ace Fireball kit which IMO better than the 612 kit.

Either or an upgraded clutch will be necessary.

Good luck with your build.

Damon · **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2015, 02:32:13 am

I installed the set of heavy duty springs in my clutch along with a set of Barnett discs and the push rod with the needle bearings. Once I got it adjusted it has not shown any signs of slipping.
I have the 5-speed in my bike, I also changed out the gear oil in mine for Lucas full synthetic and it is shifting so smoothly and without any false neutrals or slipping. It's been fabulous.

The clearances are very important when assembling the 612 or any motor for that matter. Just make sure you read all the papers that come with it and measure to those.
Also make sure you have a compression gauge and check your compression after you get it running. It's the most important to keep it under 145 psi to prevent detonation. And it can take some adjusting to get it there.
I used both the spacers in the kit which make 5mm and one base gasket and once I had it up and running and starting easily it read 175 psi. So I had to add another 1mm to the stack to try and get it down per Ace.cafes recommendation.

Damon

capt.logs · **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2015, 04:43:17 am

Quote from: Damon on March 11, 2015, 03:30:24 pm

Definitely get a service manual or the Snidal Manual. I prefer the Snidal! I just rebuilt mine with the 612 kit myself! I'd never worked on a motorcycle before but had plenty of automotive repair experience.
it is a straight forward installation kit with just about everything you will need. the hardest part for me was grinding in the timing side for clearance with the big Cams. Not sure what year your bike is but this is a really good time to go back to the original crankcase Breather system as described By Ace. Make sure you clean everything and then clean it again! Bag and tag all the small parts as you remove them and take pictures so you can refer to them upon reassembly to get it in the right places and order.
You will need a torch or an Oven that you can heat up the cases to get the old main bearings out and the new ones in.
I am not sure where you live and your altitude. I am in Seattle, WA and am at sea level. I used both spacers under the Barrel and the stock base gasket and it still wasn't enough to get the compression to an acceptable level. I had to make 2 more base gaskets and install them to get it to 92 octane gas levels. So be very careful and check that, you don't want to replace the piston again from detonation.
Just take your time and it should be really easy to do. And I have to say I love the power increase, it just feels like a totally different bike.

Damon

Where did you get the spacers? Im central coast cali. Kinda disappointed in the lack of instructions from hitchcock. I have the Sndial pdf but I personally don't think it's very detailed. Why did you have problems with the cam clearance? Seems like it will be pretty quick work with a dremel. Did you have any problems with the carb tuning? Thought it would have came with a guide at least.

=Jason-

capt.logs · **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2015, 04:45:33 am

Quote from: Blltrdr on March 11, 2015, 08:05:37 pm

You will probably have to update your clutch pack or maybe even to a Newby primary/clutch because of the HP increase. If your bike has the 4 spd you might want to look into the close ratio gears and the right side shift conversion w/sealed bearings or try and find a 5 spd trans.

If you haven't ordered the 612 kit yet you might look at the Ace Fireball kit which IMO better than the 612 kit.

Either or an upgraded clutch will be necessary.

Good luck with your build.

It's a Indian Bullet that I swapped in a 5 speed gearbox and converted to right hand shift. But that means it still has the 4 speed clutch so I'll be upgrading the discs. Never heard of Ace's kit, even now after a google search I really can't find any info on itl

Blltrdr · **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2015, 05:12:16 am

Quote from: capt.logs on March 17, 2015, 04:45:33 am

It's a Indian Bullet that I swapped in a 5 speed gearbox and converted to right hand shift. But that means it still has the 4 speed clutch so I'll be upgrading the discs. Never heard of Ace's kit, even now after a google search I really can't find any info on itl

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe · **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2015, 09:36:21 am

If you want tech support and additional performance choices, let me know.
You can google the Ace Fireball or Ace Fireball 535 and see some videos of our bikes in action, and some articles.

Bltrdr provided the link to our Yahoo group site.

I can answer any questions that you might have. We are in the US. We have over 40 builds on the road, and they are all still going, some with 50k miles. They all do The Ton, and can cruise highways at 75mph.

Damon · **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2015, 03:47:20 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on March 17, 2015, 04:43:17 am

Where did you get the spacers? Im central coast cali. Kinda disappointed in the lack of instructions from hitchcock. I have the Sndial pdf but I personally don't think it's very detailed. Why did you have problems with the cam clearance? Seems like it will be pretty quick work with a dremel. Did you have any problems with the carb tuning? Thought it would have came with a guide at least.

=Jason-

The spacers come in the kit. Just make sure you use them. As Ace said, you can use him as a resource. He is awesome and the most knowledgeable. He has answered all my questions and helped me to get mine dialed in even though it isn't his kit! He is a great guy!
If you can afford it the Newby Belt drive clutch is the ultimate, But so far the Barnett clutch discs are working great for me. If you go with the Barnett discs only order 4, the Nfield gear site says that the 5-speed uses 5 but the Barnett discs are much thicker then the stock plates so I could only get 4 discs to fit in the basket with the steel plates.

Damon

capt.logs · **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2015, 05:07:53 pm

Quote from: ace.cafe on March 17, 2015, 09:36:21 am

If you want tech support and additional performance choices, let me know.
You can google the Ace Fireball or Ace Fireball 535 and see some videos of our bikes in action, and some articles.

Bltrdr provided the link to our Yahoo group site.

I can answer any questions that you might have. We are in the US. We have over 40 builds on the road, and they are all still going, some with 50k miles. They all do The Ton, and can cruise highways at 75mph.

I honestly wish I knew about you before I ordered from hitchcock, I most likely would have gone with your kit instead. Where in the states are you located?

ace.cafe · **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2015, 05:40:50 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on March 17, 2015, 05:07:53 pm

I honestly wish I knew about you before I ordered from hitchcock, I most likely would have gone with your kit instead. Where in the states are you located?

I am in Tennessee, and the development and power work on the heads is done here. We have a shop in NJ were we do cranks and bearing work, and some rebuilds.
Most of our builds are done by the owners, with our tech support. None have failed.

Anyway, we know that we are not as high profile as Hitchcock, so we are not surprised that some people don't know about us. We often end up troubleshooting Hitchcock kits for inexperienced builders. They are basically a catalog house, and we are performance specialists. There is a difference.

The Hitchcock kit will work well enough if you build it right. It's just that there are some things that we have worked out that help the build to succeed that they don't seem to know about or understand. We have participated in several 612 successful projects, even though we prefer tbe 535 for our own Ace kits.
You won't find much that we don't know about Bullets, and we engineer all our stuff, and have created some new designs and methods for Bullet performance., such as high-lift roller rocker heads, new bearing designs, breather mods, air filters, etc.

capt.logs · **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2015, 04:49:37 am

Quote from: ace.cafe on March 17, 2015, 05:40:50 pm

I am in Tennessee, and the development and power work on the heads is done here. We have a shop in NJ were we do cranks and bearing work, and some rebuilds.
Most of our builds are done by the owners, with our tech support. None have failed.

Anyway, we know that we are not as high profile as Hitchcock, so we are not surprised that some people don't know about us. We often end up troubleshooting Hitchcock kits for inexperienced builders. They are basically a catalog house, and we are performance specialists. There is a difference.

The Hitchcock kit will work well enough if you build it right. It's just that there are some things that we have worked out that help the build to succeed that they don't seem to know about or understand. We have participated in several 612 successful projects, even though we prefer tbe 535 for our own Ace kits.
You won't find much that we don't know about Bullets, and we engineer all our stuff, and have created some new designs and methods for Bullet performance., such as high-lift roller rocker heads, new bearing designs, breather mods, air filters, etc.

Wish you were closer, I'd consider bringing the engine over for you to rebuild it. I'd love to hear your tips on making the build easier, the search function seems to be lacking on this forum.

Well got the cases split, was pretty easy. A little too easy I was thinking. Here's a couple pics of the inside. You can see the damage on the crank. Also looks like the previous builder punch dents around the bearing. I hope this isn't going to be an issue. Opinions?

ace.cafe · **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2015, 11:45:24 am

The bearings were "staked" with those little punch marks. This is a technique used to hold the bearings from moving. It might be just there because the owner thought it could help, or it could mean that the bearings had been driven out cold, and may have a loose bearing seat. Probably/hopefully, that is not the situation, and it was just an extra safety measure he did.
Those are some top grade brass caged bearings in there now. They are the best you can get. We always use brass caged bearings for mains.

Heat that case to about 250-300 degrees F to release the hold of the case on the bearings, and then drive them out with a punch or a wooden dowel. When the case is hot, they come out pretty easily. Never drive them out cold, and never try to press them in with the cases cold. Always heat the cases for bearing changes.

So, what happened to this engine that it has damage and needs rebuilding, after it was obviously rebuilt by someone previously?

capt.logs · **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2015, 04:38:11 pm

It developed a knocking sounds shortly after being rebuilt which ended in the piston failing. Upon taking the head off, you can move the rod side to side about a third an inch. I would love to keep the case bearings that are in it, less work to do. Any good way to check to see if they're still good or would it be worth it just to put fresh ones in. The rebuild has less than 1000 miles on it.

ace.cafe · **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2015, 04:48:52 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on March 18, 2015, 04:38:11 pm

It developed a knocking sounds shortly after being rebuilt which ended in the piston failing. Upon taking the head off, you can move the rod side to side about a third an inch. I would love to keep the case bearings that are in it, less work to do. Any good way to check to see if they're still good or would it be worth it just to put fresh ones in. The rebuild has less than 1000 miles on it.

A nice as those bearings are, it is not likely that you will be able to re-use them. If the inner races are a proper fit in the crankshaft, you won't be able to get them off without destroying them. The inner races are heat-shrunk on to the shafts.

High On Octane · **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2015, 01:24:57 am

Quote from: capt.logs on March 18, 2015, 04:38:11 pm

It developed a knocking sounds shortly after being rebuilt which ended in the piston failing. Upon taking the head off, you can move the rod side to side about a third an inch. I would love to keep the case bearings that are in it, less work to do. Any good way to check to see if they're still good or would it be worth it just to put fresh ones in. The rebuild has less than 1000 miles on it.

Did you use any compression spacers under the cylinder? It is common for Hitchcock's kits to produce too much compression for pump fuel, resulting in almost immediate failure. One of the problems with Hitchcock's not providing any tech support what so ever.

capt.logs · **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2015, 07:25:44 am

Quote from: High On Octane on March 19, 2015, 01:24:57 am

Did you use any compression spacers under the cylinder? It is common for Hitchcock's kits to produce too much compression for pump fuel, resulting in almost immediate failure. One of the problems with Hitchcock's not providing any tech support what so ever.

No this is from an Indian rebuild. I worked in India and brought my bike back to the states with me. Here's a pic.

For clutch options do you recommend the barnett discs or the improved clutch kit from hitchcocks which replaces the 4 discs with 5?

=Jason-

ace.cafe · **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2015, 12:28:53 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on March 19, 2015, 07:25:44 am

No this is from an Indian rebuild. I worked in India and brought my bike back to the states with me. Here's a pic.

For clutch options do you recommend the barnett discs or the improved clutch kit from hitchcocks which replaces the 4 discs with 5?

=Jason-

The "Indian build" explains it all. There is no telling what you will find in there.

As for the clutch, the Barnett plates work as well as anything.

Blltrdr · **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2015, 07:17:25 pm

How did you get that bike titled in Cali? I know that most Bullet owners had to buy there Bullets (before the UCE models) out of state. How would you be able to bring in a non-US model and get it titled in the only state in the union not to allow the older Bullets to be sold because of stringent emission standards. A bike from India wouldn't have a VIN # stamped on the frame and I would find it hard to believe that the Cal DMV would assign a VIN for that bike.

Inquiring minds want to know.....how you did it.

capt.logs · **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2015, 01:41:20 am

Quote from: Blltrdr on March 19, 2015, 07:17:25 pm

How did you get that bike titled in Cali? I know that most Bullet owners had to buy there Bullets (before the UCE models) out of state. How would you be able to bring in a non-US model and get it titled in the only state in the union not to allow the older Bullets to be sold because of stringent emission standards. A bike from India wouldn't have a VIN # stamped on the frame and I would find it hard to believe that the Cal DMV would assign a VIN for that bike.

Inquiring minds want to know.....how you did it.

It currently is not registered in CA but in MN. The MN DMV gave it a VIN and a new title. I have imported 2 Indian bullets to the US, this one which was my personal one, and one I had built for my father. No problems at all as long as it's 30 years old. We shall see how it goes in Cali since I just moved here. I doubt there will be any problem since it already has a US title but if so, I'll just renew my MN registration.

=J-

Blltrdr · **Reply #24 on:** March 20, 2015, 01:49:57 am

I don't think you can register the iron barrel Bullet in Cali. Californians had to go to Arizona and Nevada to buy and register. Hopefully you will figure it out. If you have any problems call Guy at Sun Valley Service Center in Nevada, he is listed in the dealer section on the home page. He has helped many Californians achieve their dream of riding an iron head in their home state.

capt.logs · **Reply #25 on:** May 12, 2015, 08:42:31 am

Case is apart, had it cleaned last week. I've been so back up with work I really haven't had any time for this rebuild but slowly I'm getting it done. Popped the cases in the oven, timing side came right now, drive side took a couple light taps to get out. Not too bad of scorching, I included pics to get some opinions. Need to get a decent pair of ring lock pliers to do the last one. Noticed though on the timing side that while I was grinding for the new cams, I might have taken a little too much off. You can see from the picture there's a tiny hole. Is this going to be a serious issue? Anything I can do about this or finding a new case is in order?

ace.cafe · **Reply #26 on:** May 12, 2015, 11:33:25 am

While the crank is out, you can weld up the hole that you ground too deep. Then carefully grind the clearance for the cams again. There is a little bit of room around the crank there, but you should check that the crank does not touch the repair when installed. I have also seen epoxy like JB Weld Bond used to repair that hole.
The hole happens fairly commonly when grinding clearance for the higher lift cams.

capt.logs · **Reply #27 on:** May 12, 2015, 05:38:08 pm

Glad I'm not the only one that has made that dumb mistake lol. Do I need to lube the bearings after they're in? Also is assembly lube a good idea with these? Any important spots to look out for while I reassemble the case? I'm take extra care on making sure the bearings are flush. Also thinking of using a little orange silcon when I put this sucker back together since the surfaces aren't that great. Any problem with that?

I'm kinda disappointed the 612 kit didn't come with the same brass bearings. I'm hoping the ones they included are still decent. Is there any clearance issues with the crank I should be worried about? I was under the impression that only the cams are what required some case shaving but since there's no instructions/guide I'm kinda in the dark here. Thanks

=Jason-

ace.cafe · **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2015, 05:47:27 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on May 12, 2015, 05:38:08 pm

Glad I'm not the only one that has made that dumb mistake lol. Do I need to lube the bearings after they're in? Also is assembly lube a good idea with these? Any important spots to look out for while I reassemble the case? I'm take extra care on making sure the bearings are flush. Also thinking of using a little orange silcon when I put this sucker back together since the surfaces aren't that great. Any problem with that?

I'm kinda disappointed the 612 kit didn't come with the same brass bearings. I'm hoping the ones they included are still decent. Is there any clearance issues with the crank I should be worried about? I was under the impression that only the cams are what required some case shaving but since there's no instructions/guide I'm kinda in the dark here. Thanks

=Jason-

Jason,
Everything that moves should be pre-lubed. Assembly lube is fine, or even something like STP from a bottle will work. On the bore and rings, just use Automatic transmission fluid for a pre-lube.

You can use silicone seal, but you have to be very sparing with it. When you torque things together, it can squish out and cause little bits of silicone to fall down and clog things up.

The crank can sometimes hit the bottom of the case with the 612 long stroke. You should do a test assembly to see if you need to grind out some of the bottom of the engine case inside. This was once a common need, but maybe they have done some impovements. Anyway, you should check it.

Don't forget to put the crank thrust washers in place before you put the inner races of the bearings on to the crank!
And don't forget to put BOTH the outer and inner distance pieces on the drive side between the main roller and the 6305 ball bearing. It is easy to forget these things.

capt.logs · **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2015, 07:59:05 pm

Did a quick fit today, looks like it will clear everything but I'll do another one before I put it back together. Have the thrust washers (mine came out with 2 on the drive side, one on the timing side) and have the distance pieces sorted out. Looks like there's three in total on the drive side, two large and one smaller.

Something that I discovered that concerns me is there's a big different on width on the timing bearing that came out of the case and what was provided from hitchcock. Included a pic, the left is hitchcocks and right is what was in there. Problem?

Again really appreciate your help and advice on this stuff. It's been huge so thank you.

ace.cafe · **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2015, 08:13:14 pm

The big one looks like a problem.
The NU205 C3 is the timing side bearing, which is the smaller one of the two. But the fat bearing even looks to me like it might be a ball bearing, and I have never seen one like that in any Enfield engine before, ever.
There should be a number on it. My guess is that the engine has been rebuilt before, and there was a problem with the original bearing, and possible damage to the engine case. They may have milled out the case for a larger bearing to accommodate it. The 2nd thrust washer may also have been needed to get the right fit.
Also, with that big fat bearing on the drive side main bearing location, they may have had to modify the distance pieces to fit with that bearing size, so they also may very likely be fubar.
I also noticed that there were some witness marks around the bearing seat area which clearly were meant to stake the bearing in place so that it would not rotate in its seat.

I would recommend taking a very good close look at all these areas. You might actually be better off replacing your cases, as you previously mentioned. If the bearing issues is as it appears, it would probably be a good idea.
Anything you re-use from inside these cases must be viewed as potentially suspect, and must be measured out and proved to be right before using.

cafeman · **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2015, 08:39:45 pm

That bearing looks like a double ball type. Similar to what I've seen on Husqvarna dirt bikes, double ball "max" I think many call them.

capt.logs · **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:09:06 pm

Great not what I wanted to hear. Where can I find the specs on width depth etc to see what I'm working with. Also any good suggestions on where to pick up a case. Starting to be a damn expensive build.

Arizoni · **Reply #33 on:** May 12, 2015, 11:47:02 pm

What is the number on the larger ball(?) bearing?

Bearings are all standardized and the number on it will tell us what type and size it is.

capt.logs · **Reply #34 on:** May 13, 2015, 05:05:11 pm

Quote from: Arizoni on May 12, 2015, 11:47:02 pm

What is the number on the larger ball(?) bearing?

Bearings are all standardized and the number on it will tell us what type and size it is.

It has IJK and 5205 on it. Check the diameter with my caliber and it's the same as the correct bearing just thicker. I checked the depth on the crankcase and it's 20mm deep so not sure if that's standard or not. Included a couple pics. I've looked around now for some replacement cases and can't find them anywhere so I'm trying to see if these can be salvageable. Any chance a spacer with the stock bearing will work or should I be looking to get a new one of what came out? Just looking for ideas right now.

=Jason-

ace.cafe · **Reply #35 on:** May 13, 2015, 05:12:36 pm

A spacer might work. You will need to be sure that the case can hold the bearing tight around the outside. You could probably lock the spacer in place with some Loctite bearing locker compound. Then you'll need some new inner and outer distance pieces.
It might be salvageable.

capt.logs · **Reply #36 on:** May 13, 2015, 05:57:00 pm

What I'm thinking of doing is just getting a new replacement of the bigger bearing because I think it will be hard to find a spacer that will work well and keep the bearing flush with the case. Can you tell me the correct depth for the case? It also looks like I have an aftermarket bronze bushing. I think I'll wait a week or two and see if I can source some cases and then if not get creative. I just don't understand why since it's the same diameter, why they used such a thicker bearing. Maybe it was just what they had on hand.

ace.cafe · **Reply #37 on:** May 13, 2015, 06:23:43 pm

You won't find a spacer, you'll have to make a spacer on the lathe, from aluminum stock.
The depth of that nu305 bearing that is supposed to be in there is 17mm.

Tou could also have ths bearing seat in the case welded up and re-machined to take that nu305 bearing.

I would not recommend using that big ball bearing, new or not. Those main bearings are supposed to be cylindrical rollers for high load bearing capacity.

ace.cafe · **Reply #38 on:** May 13, 2015, 09:14:19 pm

My opinion is that while you have it apart and are doing a performance rebuild, it should be put back to rights, and not work around some previous butchery. I think it should be corrected to the way it was originally supposed to be.

Arizoni · **Reply #39 on:** May 14, 2015, 12:29:53 am

For anyone interested the 5205 bearing is a double row ball angular contact, thrust bearing.

Its design requires that the inner race constantly has an axial thrust in one direction only. If it is installed backwards, the balls and races will be unloaded leading to failure.

There are single row and double row angular contact bearings available, the single row, with just one row of balls is meant for light to medium duty while the double row bearing like this one is meant for a heavy duty application where the axial and radial thrust load is high.

Because of its design, it must have an axial thrust at all times. This keeps the balls in contact with the raceway(s).
If it is used in an application without a axial load on the shaft the balls will not be forced to maintain a contact with the raceway so the balls may skid rather than rotate.
Skidding balls (or rollers in the case of roller bearings) will soon damage the raceway(s) and themselves.

Long story short, this bearing is unsuitable for use on the crankshaft of a Royal Enfield.

It is listed as a 25 mm bore, 52mm outer race diameter and 20.6mm wide with non-contacting metal shields on both sides of the rolling elements. The shields are removable which explains their absence on this bearing.

capt.logs · **Reply #40 on:** May 14, 2015, 06:58:30 am

Quote from: Arizoni on May 14, 2015, 12:29:53 am

For anyone interested the 5205 bearing is a double row ball angular contact, thrust bearing.

Its design requires that the inner race constantly has an axial thrust in one direction only. If it is installed backwards, the balls and races will be unloaded leading to failure.

There are single row and double row angular contact bearings available, the single row, with just one row of balls is meant for light to medium duty while the double row bearing like this one is meant for a heavy duty application where the axial and radial thrust load is high.

Because of its design, it must have an axial thrust at all times. This keeps the balls in contact with the raceway(s).
If it is used in an application without a axial load on the shaft the balls will not be forced to maintain a contact with the raceway so the balls may skid rather than rotate.
Skidding balls (or rollers in the case of roller bearings) will soon damage the raceway(s) and themselves.

Long story short, this bearing is unsuitable for use on the crankshaft of a Royal Enfield.

It is listed as a 25 mm bore, 52mm outer race diameter and 20.6mm wide with non-contacting metal shields on both sides of the rolling elements. The shields are removable which explains their absence on this bearing.

Good information more than the bearing guy I went to which told me a sealed 5205 2RS C3 would work. I'm new to all of this but correct me if I'm work but as long as the engine is under load(accelerating) there's axial thrust. I don't understand how the Bullet would be different from say a dirt bike which uses this kind of bearing. If I were to go the spacer route, seems like I would need something about 3mm wide. I'm concerned on the inner race of the spacer, and if side to side movement on the crank would be an issue.

So here's the million dollar question. Can I get the correct type of bearing with the same width as the double row. Finding replacement cases has not been successful, even hitchcock doesn't have any. I rather not weld and remachine because I'm afraid of warping and there really isn't any decent shops in the area. That also makes building a spacer hard to do as well. Finally have time to do this rebuild and have a major stop already.

Also any good guides in checking endfloat/crank tolerances. Need to determine if I really will need to two thrust washers in there on the timing side and honestly the Snidal manual isn't much help. Assembling one case at a time a decent way to do a mock up or are there better ways. Thanks

capt.logs · **Reply #41 on:** May 14, 2015, 06:28:28 pm

This is the response I recieved from Hitchcocks "There are a couple of guys in the UK which modify the timing side bearing to give it more support. This involves machining the crankcase to allow the fitment of the wider bearing. On the very early models, the area of crankcase around the timing side bearing were weak but during the mid 90’s these were strengthened in this area by increasing the surrounding alloy but the bearing remained the same. It would not surprise me if other people in the USA offer this conversion. What I do not know is if they changed the timing shaft but would doubt it has changed. I quick check from your old shaft and the new shaft will answer this question and if different it will be obvious. Assuming they have not changed, I would recommend obtaining a bearing locally to replace the wider one you had fitted. It will be a standard bearing and there should be some numbers on it. In theory you could space the narrow bearing, but the wider bearing would be a nice improvement."

The wider bearing that I bought to replace what was in it is a 5205 2RS C3. This is a sealed double-row angular contact ball bearing. I bought the sealed because since it's wider, it blocks the small oil passage. I'm fine with that because I do not have an oil seal on the timing side but a bronze bushing. It may wear slightly quicker due to the fact it doesn't have constant axial thrust but since I most likely won't be putting more than 5k miles on it a year, I believe that it will last me a good couple years and during that time, I can source new cases and rebuild from there eventually.

This bearing is designed for thrust loads in either direction so aligning it will not be an issue and since it's designed to also take radial loads, I think it will hold up to the Bullets vibration.

Another concern I've now noticed(doesn't seem to stop) is that the hitchcock crankshaft on the timing side is machined for the oil seal which my original crank does not have. I do not have an oil seal but a bronze bushing instead. Is there differences in the years of cranks and hitchcock gave me the wrong one or will this not be an issue?

If I can figure out these little issues I may get to put the engine back together next week. I'm still looking for a good way to check crank clearance and my manuals aren't much help there. I am learning a lot on this build which always is a great thing but wished it would go a little easier.

ace.cafe · **Reply #42 on:** May 14, 2015, 08:36:52 pm

I should have noticed that it was on the timing side. I mistakenly presumed it was the drive side, since the bearing was so large.
However, at least with the timing side, you don't have the issue with the distance pieces to deal with.

We do the wider 2205 bearing conversion here for some people who request it.
We can also weld up that case and re-machine it for the correct bearing, or for the 2205, or we can make a spacer for it. We'd need the case half shipped here to do any of that.
We could also machine it for the oil seal too, if that was desired.

As far as I know, it was the 350 cases that had the bronze bushing in there, instead of the oil seal. It is possible that these cases were converted from a 350 in its past history.
Was this bike imported from India as a used "restored" bike with old serial number? This is the kind of thing that is often seen with India "restorations".

Arizoni · **Reply #43 on:** May 15, 2015, 12:33:06 am

It all goes to show, don't believe everything that's written on the web.

I was thinking of a single row angular contact bearing when I said the 5205 bearing only takes axial loads in one direction.

The double row bearing can take axial loads in both directions so it should be fine in this application.

As a side note, the 2205 bearing Ace mentioned is also a double row ball bearing but it is a self aligning design.
That allows the housing bore (and outer race) to be pointed in a different direction than the direction of the crankshaft's journal.

Both bearings are rated to operate at 9000 rpm so the RE thumpers shouldn't cause a problem with engine speed.

ace.cafe · **Reply #44 on:** May 15, 2015, 12:54:53 am

The depth of the nu205 bearing on the timing side is 15mm.
The 2205 would be 18mm deep.

capt.logs · **Reply #45 on:** May 15, 2015, 04:37:47 am

The 2205 I have in my hand is 20.7mm. I think I'm going to stick with that for the time being since it will work just as well as the stock bearing. My concern now is the differences with the crank shaft between what I have and what was provided from Hitchcock. Will that extra step be a problem? I'm waiting on a response from Hitchcock but I'm hoping it will be ok. If not I'm sure I can get it machined here for the oil seal since it seems like an easy job. This hitchcock crank also has strange clearances. The timing is is .15 mm wider which doesn't allow the bearing to slip on like it does on the drive side. Hoping this won't be an issue when it's time to put things back together.

=Jason-

cafeman · **Reply #46 on:** May 15, 2015, 06:10:00 am

Jason, I'm confused as you mentioned in an earlier post having a 5205 but now you mention you have a 2205 and are going with that? Typo? Anyway, not to confuse things further but I mentioned double row "max" ball bearings and their use in Husky dirtbikes, 3205-E/C3 is what they are ( by SKF, INA etc) the "E" designates the maximum capacity version. Turns out the dimensions are the same as the 5205 bearing. Picture below. These have 14 balls each row vs. 8-9 in the standard version. How many balls per row do you have in the ones you have? Using a ball bearing will require heating the case and freezing the bearing to install, then heating things again and installing the chilled (stickin the freezer for a while) crank assembly. Should slip right home. No different than other engines. Measuring for clearance as mentioned in my other post and having required shims in place before assembly obviously. To remove you press the crank out with a tool that bolts to the case and you screw down the center bolt to push the shaft out. Some go together easy, some take more effort. Done all the time on all kinds of engines. The left case has a ball bearing and you already have to press out the crank as well as draw it into position to assemble the cases. Same issue here. Not as easy as some but it is what it is. If you have the 5205 and are adamant on using that sizef bearing I would strongly suggest you instead get the 3205-E/C3. If you have the 2205 then never mind

ace.cafe · **Reply #47 on:** May 15, 2015, 07:33:18 am

The inner race is supposed to be a "shrink fit" on to the shaft. The race is heated up until it can slip into its place on the shaft, and it shrink fits very tight in place. This prevents the shaft from moving inside the inner race, and still allows the cases to be split easily for service. The inner race stays on the crank, and the rest of the bearing stays in the engine case. This doesn't happen with a ball bearing which has an integral inner race. If you have a tight fit of that ball bearing on the shaft, you will have to press the case half with the bearing in it on to the shaft, and good luck ever getting it apart again. If the bearing easily slip fits on to the shaft, it can turn inside the race. This is why they use these 205 and 305 type roller bearings with the separate inner races.. The races can come out with the crank , and it allows the cases to be split easily, and go back together easily.

capt.logs · **Reply #48 on:** May 15, 2015, 03:00:21 pm

Quote from: cafeman on May 15, 2015, 06:10:00 am

Jason, I'm confused as you mentioned in an earlier post having a 5205 but now you mention you have a 2205 and are going with that? Typo? Anyway, not to confuse things further but I mentioned double row "max" ball bearings and their use in Husky dirtbikes, 3205-E/C3 is what they are ( by SKF, INA etc) the "E" designates the maximum capacity version. Turns out the dimensions are the same as the 5205 bearing. Picture below. These have 14 balls each row vs. 8-9 in the standard version. How many balls per row do you have in the ones you have? Using a ball bearing will require heating the case and freezing the bearing to install, then heating things again and installing the chilled (stickin the freezer for a while) crank assembly. Should slip right home. No different than other engines. Measuring for clearance as mentioned in my other post and having required shims in place before assembly obviously. To remove you press the crank out with a tool that bolts to the case and you screw down the center bolt to push the shaft out. Some go together easy, some take more effort. Done all the time on all kinds of engines. The left case has a ball bearing and you already have to press out the crank as well as draw it into position to assemble the cases. Same issue here. Not as easy as some but it is what it is. If you have the 5205 and are adamant on using that sizef bearing I would strongly suggest you instead get the 3205-E/C3. If you have the 2205 then never mind

Sorry yea typo, meant 5205. Looking online now for specs on the 3205 but can't seem to find a sealed E/C3. I would like to go sealed with metal shields just because the oil passage is blocked due to the wider bearing.

ace.cafe · **Reply #49 on:** May 15, 2015, 04:02:41 pm

Good luck.

capt.logs · **Reply #50 on:** May 26, 2015, 09:27:15 pm

Well have the crankcase back together and slowly starting to put everything back on. I'm not so happy with the gasket set that came with hitchcocks kit. They seem cheap and are really thin. Because of this, it looks like I'm either going to have to double up the gaskets on the oil pumps or get the weaker springs because currently the spindle is too tight for my liking.

Another issue is I think due to the thin timing cover gasket. After tightening everything up, the crank is a lot stiffer, it won't move as freely. I already took off one of the two shims on both of the cams and think I'll need to take off the other and run no shims. Since this is a brand new build is the tightness expected and will work itself looser after a little running or something I should be concerned with? Should I leave the last shims there or take them off and run without? I can move the crank by hand but it's taking some effort so it definitely is tighter than before I put the timing cover on. Thanks

ace.cafe · **Reply #51 on:** May 26, 2015, 09:42:42 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on May 26, 2015, 09:27:15 pm

Well have the crankcase back together and slowly starting to put everything back on. I'm not so happy with the gasket set that came with hitchcocks kit. They seem cheap and are really thin. Because of this, it looks like I'm either going to have to double up the gaskets on the oil pumps or get the weaker springs because currently the spindle is too tight for my liking.

Another issue is I think due to the thin timing cover gasket. After tightening everything up, the crank is a lot stiffer, it won't move as freely. I already took off one of the two shims on both of the cams and think I'll need to take off the other and run no shims. Since this is a brand new build is the tightness expected and will work itself looser after a little running or something I should be concerned with? Should I leave the last shims there or take them off and run without? I can move the crank by hand but it's taking some effort so it definitely is tighter than before I put the timing cover on. Thanks

Do the cam shimming with the oil pumps out. You want to just feel what effects that the cam shims have. You can double up on the timing cover gasket if you have to. There are two kinds, black rubber, and a paper one. The black rubber is thick, and the paper is thin.
Basically, you want to tighten up the timing cover and see if the crank movement is tight. If it is, then remove shims one at a time, and re-tighten the timing cover each time, until you have removed enough shims to get it to move freely. This gives enough shim to set end float properly, but not bind. Don't be expecting anything to "loosen up" in this area from running. You need to get it to move freely by hand, or it will have way too much friction when it is running. If it needs to have no shims, that's okay, but you need to be sure that one shim is too tight first, or you will have excess end float and the cams will move away from the lifters toward the outside because of the cam face bias.

Very common to have to use 2 oil pump cover gaskets with the hi-cap oil pumps. Just make sure that they can turn all the way thru their full rotations without binding on anything. That's 12 rotations of the crank to get one full rotation of the pump.

capt.logs · **Reply #52 on:** May 26, 2015, 09:55:55 pm

How free should the crank move. I can barely move it by hand using the drive side shaft but it's easier using the rod. It won't "coast" though after I put pressure on it. Should it move easily by hand using the drive side shaft?

ace.cafe · **Reply #53 on:** May 26, 2015, 10:19:59 pm

Should turn easily from either side shaft when just the crankshaft is being turned. Should really wheel freely if pumping the con rod up and down. Should feel like it's gliding. You should feel no "hitches" or binding spots. It should feel the same way all the way around.
It gets a little more resistance when trying to turn the cams and oil pumps, but it should still turn pretty easy with that "gliding" feel still present.
Everything should be pre-lubed.

Also, when you have the engine sitting vertical on the bench, when you lay the con rod against the engine case, the center of the con rod should be centered on the case gasket split. If it is off-set in either direction, there is a problem.

capt.logs · **Reply #54 on:** May 27, 2015, 05:50:32 pm

Well the engine is back together, ended up using no cam shims. What spark plug are people using in the 612 kit? Is the BR9EIX a good plug for this type of setup? I might be waiting a couple days because the decompressor I got(from india go figure) isn't threading correctly so I might need to find a replacement.

ace.cafe · **Reply #55 on:** May 27, 2015, 06:06:48 pm

I'd use the regular BR8ES.

If you used the correct 7mm thickness of spacers under the barrel, you should be in a normal compression range. No need for colder plug. I don't think the colder plug would hurt anything, but it might foul more easily and give darker plug readings. 8 is fine.

capt.logs · **Reply #56 on:** May 27, 2015, 06:48:02 pm

I ended up using 3 spacers to start just because Ive read that compression is an issue with these 612 kits. Another great question for you is what size banjo bolts go into the head. They're the larger one since my oil feed lines are the larger diameter. I have the smaller adapters on my old head but then I would need to get a new oil rocker line.

ace.cafe · **Reply #57 on:** May 27, 2015, 07:51:33 pm

Not sure. Something like 10mm, IIRC.
Go ahead and get the oil lines that fit it, with the right banjos. It's the lowest cost.

capt.logs · **Reply #58 on:** May 28, 2015, 09:16:05 pm

I would rather use the larger banjo bolts if i could though. Picked up some 12mm's but those are just a little too small. Broke two bones in my hand yesterday kiteboarding so I guess the project is on hold again. Anyone know what size chain I'll need with a 21T front sprocket?

ace.cafe · **Reply #59 on:** May 28, 2015, 09:23:09 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on May 28, 2015, 09:16:05 pm

I would rather use the larger banjo bolts if i could though. Picked up some 12mm's but those are just a little too small. Broke two bones in my hand yesterday kiteboarding so I guess the project is on hold again. Anyone know what size chain I'll need with a 21T front sprocket?

Sorry, don't know.
Sorry about the broken bones too.

High On Octane · **Reply #60 on:** May 28, 2015, 09:29:38 pm

IIRC I have 109 links for the 21 tooth front. I have an older twin tho. Get a 110 and cut it to what you need.

Mr.Mazza · **Reply #61 on:** May 28, 2015, 09:39:14 pm

Quote from: capt.logs on May 28, 2015, 09:16:05 pm

I would rather use the larger banjo bolts if i could though. Picked up some 12mm's but those are just a little too small. Broke two bones in my hand yesterday kiteboarding so I guess the project is on hold again. Anyone know what size chain I'll need with a 21T front sprocket?

Hitchcocks list pitch with sprocket size

97 pitch with a 21-22T sprocket for a 5 speed box.

capt.logs · **Reply #62 on:** June 24, 2015, 04:26:54 am

Engines back on the bike and now doing the little stuff. Good question...where does this go? Been going through diagrams and can't find it anywhere but it's in my parts tray.