Author Topic: Ignition problem?  (Read 17447 times)

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Blltrdr

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Reply #30 on: March 05, 2015, 05:32:03 am
Yes tested but can't remember the readings. No problems with mine. Double check your MM setting for that secondary reading. Hopefully it's OK.
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High On Octane

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Reply #31 on: March 05, 2015, 11:08:45 am
Yes tested but can't remember the readings. No problems with mine. Double check your MM setting for that secondary reading. Hopefully it's OK.

Good point.  Was the multimeter on 20K ohms for the secondary reading?
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Dave1

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Reply #32 on: March 05, 2015, 11:20:50 pm
Yes it was on 20K setting, a triple checked it then I triple checked it again. Couldn't believe my luck. Retailer I brought it from was really good. No quibble, send it back and they will check and exchange and they paid for the return postage.


Dave1

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Reply #33 on: March 12, 2015, 05:07:06 pm
Well guys in the end the company I ordered the coil from, had to send it back to Pertronix, because it is unusual for a coil to have a problem and Pertronix wanted to investigate, which is good. It would take 3 weeks, the company I brought the Pertronix coil from wanted me to wait 3 weeks until the out come was decided( a new coil or not ). Which is bad customer service really. As they could of just sent me another replacement coil, if Pertronix decided the coil was bad, Pertronix could of just sent another coil free or refunded the company money. If they decided there was nothing wrong, the company I brought the product from could of just sent the coil to someone else! ( which obviously there was something wrong )

Anyway as I was in the 14 day cool off period, I just asked for a refund and ordered another Pertronix coil from a rival company. The coil arrived today, and tested fine.

So now I am going to order some normal copper core ht lead, and also a racing ht lead with 40 copper strands, which is suppose to have a even lower resistance. Going to order a meter of both and then test the resistance of both, the ht lead with the least resistance will be used. The spark plug I am using is the NGK Iridium plug with a resistor. Should make for one strong set up.


Blltrdr

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Reply #34 on: March 13, 2015, 12:04:37 am
No need to order that wire. Go to your nearest O'Reilley Auto Parts and buy it by the foot. Bought 5' for my ZG1200 last year. Great stuff.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
2009 HD FLHT Police 103 6 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII


Dave1

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Reply #35 on: March 13, 2015, 10:32:17 am
That would be a fine thing, if I lived in the states. I live in the Uk. Most auto parts stores on the high streets here only really cater to cars. 


High On Octane

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Reply #36 on: March 13, 2015, 11:10:43 am
I'm sure you can find an auto parts store locally that sells HT cable in bulk.  Not sure what you have for stores there, but anyone that sells parts for older cars should have HT cable on bulk rolls.
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Dave1

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Reply #37 on: March 13, 2015, 01:02:28 pm
I may of been able to buy normal copper core ht lead in a store but I wouldn't hold my breath. The main auto store now in the UK is Halfords. They hardly keep and spare parts for new cars let aloan old cars. Last time I went it, to get even a spark plug for my enfield( which I have done before ) I was told they hardly keep any parts anymore prefering to order them in for customers. The whole point of a vonvient store is you go in find and buy what your looking for and leave. If I have to wait for the store to order it in, I just as well order it through the internet! Plus I don't live close to a auto store anyway with free parking. So I am really better off ordering online like I have already done. Id be very surprised if you found racing ht lead in the shops anyway.


Blown265

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Reply #38 on: March 29, 2015, 04:55:08 am
G'day guys

Did a quick resistance and voltage comparison on a few Bullet coils today- the factory Lucas, PVL, and Pertronix 'Flame Thrower'. The measured results were interesting:

Lucas 3.2 ohm , 7500 ohm, giving 28100v (at 12v)
PVL 4.1 ohm, 6300 ohm, giving 18400v (at 12v)
Pertronix 3.4 ohm, 10300 ohm, giving 36400v (at 12v)

Assuming each of the coils were in factory spec, it makes the factory coil a better choice than the aftermarket PVL, and not surprisingly, explains why the spark with the Pertronix is so much stronger than the other two.

Regards
Paul

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shaji

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Reply #39 on: March 29, 2015, 08:31:58 pm
Friends: I've a 2008 Bullet 500cc. It has both kick-start and electric start. This week, I tried to electric start and it keeps making a "Wheee" sound. Looks like it trying to start, but goes in vain.
 I checked the battery it has above 12v. When I try to kick start, it feels heavy as if the kicker doesn't want to go. After getting the ammeter to middle (by releasing compression switch), I was able to do one kick, but immediately, I feel the kicker tight.
I followed all typical starting steps mentioned above and still it doesn't start not I feel the kicker goes freely. With help of my friend I was able to push start. Now I am able to push start every time, but not kickstart or electric start. Any ideas?


gremlin

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Reply #40 on: April 06, 2015, 06:26:00 pm
Secondary resistance of 5300 ohms divided by primary resistance of 3.9 ohms gives 1358.97 effective turns ratio........

Please don't confuse Ohms and Turns .....  You are doing a dis-service to your "customers".

Another pet peeve .....  People who actually believe higher turns ratio = more voltage at the plug.

The voltage at the plug will be what is required to jump the gap.  If you keep the same electrode spacing, your plug voltage will stay the same.  More turns = more gap in the plug.  A valid argument can be made that  adding a higher turns ratio coil without opening up the plug electrodes can actually reduce the reliability of ignition (owing to impedance mis-match and reflected energy).

 
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gremlin

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Reply #41 on: April 06, 2015, 06:35:51 pm

.......So now I am going to order some normal copper core ht lead, and also a racing ht lead with 40 copper strands, ....... and then test the resistance of both, the ht lead with the least resistance will be used........


Use the higher strand count wire, even if it has a higher DC resistance.  The "risetime" of your ignition pulse has some high frequency components to it.  High frequency currents "rise-up" and are propagated on the surface of electric wire (also known as the "skin effect"). 

By using the higher strand-count wire you have more surface area for the skin effect to utilize, and therefore better pulse propagation with less delay.

summary --> use the higher strand count cable.
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singhg5

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Reply #42 on: April 06, 2015, 07:27:46 pm
Please don't confuse Ohms and Turns .....  You are doing a dis-service to your "customers".

Another pet peeve .....  People who actually believe higher turns ratio = more voltage at the plug.

The voltage at the plug will be what is required to jump the gap.  If you keep the same electrode spacing, your plug voltage will stay the same. More turns = more gap in the plug. 

A valid argument can be made that  adding a higher turns ratio coil without opening up the plug electrodes can actually reduce the reliability of ignition (owing to impedance mis-match and reflected energy).

Three questions -

i) If voltage of spark plug depends on electrode spacing, what is the numerical value (Volts) of a typical spark plug of say 0.9 mm electrode gap ?

ii) Does the electrode material or design affect voltage, for same spacing - say nickel alloy eletrodes vs platinum or iridum electrodes of 0.9 mm gap, would they have different volts during spark ? 

Or is it mostly determined by the environment around them - atmospheric pressure in the combustion chamber, temperature, gaseous composition around the electrodes ? 

iii)  Is there a graph that shows volts on spark plug vs gap in its electrodes ?

iv)  Can you explain what does ignition reliability is reduced mean ? .... 'adding a higher turns ratio coil without opening up the plug electrodes can actually reduce the reliability of ignition'. Does this mean ignition coil does not fire sometimes ?  Should very high energy output ignition coils not be used if spark plug gap is not matched for it ? 

My three questions become four, five,...??? :D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:14:25 pm by singhg5 »
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Arizoni

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Reply #43 on: April 07, 2015, 05:34:05 am
While we're pestering ole' Gremlin, I'll have to ask:

Given the required voltage to jump the spark plug gap is fairly constant at a constant spark plug gap distance and constant cylinder chamber pressure, wouldn't a coil with a larger turn ratio be more likely to successfully create a spark if the combustion chamber pressure increased?

I ask because it is my understanding that an increase in the combustion chamber pressure greatly raises the voltage required to create a spark of a fixed distance.
This change can occur when going from a partially open throttle to a wide open throttle.
Jim
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gremlin

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Reply #44 on: April 07, 2015, 04:04:40 pm
Three questions -

i) If voltage of spark plug depends on electrode spacing, what is the numerical value (Volts) of a typical spark plug of say 0.9 mm electrode gap ?

ii) Does the electrode material or design affect voltage, for same spacing - say nickel alloy eletrodes vs platinum or iridum electrodes of 0.9 mm gap, would they have different volts during spark ? 

Or is it mostly determined by the environment around them - atmospheric pressure in the combustion chamber, temperature, gaseous composition around the electrodes ? 

iii)  Is there a graph that shows volts on spark plug vs gap in its electrodes ?

iv)  Can you explain what does ignition reliability is reduced mean ? .... 'adding a higher turns ratio coil without opening up the plug electrodes can actually reduce the reliability of ignition'. Does this mean ignition coil does not fire sometimes ?  Should very high energy output ignition coils not be used if spark plug gap is not matched for it ? 

My three questions become four, five,...??? :D

ia =>  I cannot confidently quote you a number for this, it will depend on the following additional variables:  humidity, mixture strength, and compression.  http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1925/naca-report-202.pdf

iia =>  It is mostly determined by the environment.

iiia =>  this has some examples .... http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1925/naca-report-202.pdf

IVa =>  A complete discussion of this would involve the "smith chart" and transmission (electrical, not mechanical) theory.  Please understand the difference between a "High Energy" coil and a "High Voltage" (high turns ratio) coil, they are not the same thing.   But, to illustrate .....  the effectiveness (reliability) of ignition is the transfer of energy from the spark to the gaseous environment.  If the spark is INTENSE, but, short lived. it can become ineffective.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 04:07:43 pm by gremlin »
1996 Trophy 1200
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2011 RE B5