Author Topic: 535 (?) Build  (Read 6477 times)

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JamesJoeyKing

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on: December 20, 2014, 07:02:22 pm
Hello all,

    After buying this bike over 10 years ago, having problems getting it titled (we lived in Japan at the time), and watching it slowly rust and fall apart in front of my eyes, I'm ready to start restoring it. I took it apart years ago, labeled everything, and put the parts in boxes, and have now found the time/inclination to finally start stripping paint/rust/goop off of things, repairing them, and putting them back together, I just have a few questions:
     
    The dealer that this bike was bought from is called "Madaan Motors", and is one of those bikes that was slapped together after being found in an old factory.  When we bought it, we were told that it was a "1966" model bike.  We learned a few years ago that 500cc models were not made in 1966, so maybe it's a 1966 frame, but definitely not a '66 motor (we've measured the displacement, it's definitely a 500cc).  We were also told when we bought it that it had been bored to 535cc.  Does this mean that it is *technically* a lightning? Or were there 535cc bikes sold as-is without the rest of the lightning mods? I know that the cylinder is an Iron Barrel as well, not alloy.  It seems to also have up-rated rocker boxes, from what I've seen in the catalogues, comparing parts and what-not.  I'm not sure if it has any other performance parts, because our knowledge of this bike is not what it should be.

     Before I start building this bike again, I want to know if there is any way to marginally improve the top-speed of these bikes.  I've seen people say multiple times not to go over 55-60 mph to prevent the piston from seizing.  I've seen the alloy barrels, as well as the up-rated oil pumps (but people say the new pump doesn't actually do much to cool the top end?).  Will the alloy barrel cool it down enough to comfortable improve top speeds?  I'm not looking for much, maybe 10 more mph, but just to the point that I don't have to worry about *accidentally* not minding my speed, especially on the roads around here.  I know these bikes are mostly air-cooled, so I guess the oil isn't meant to cool it down significantly.

Any help is appreciated! Including any other information that will help me in the future, what to watch for, etc.  Thanks!

-James 


ace.cafe

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Reply #1 on: December 20, 2014, 10:54:31 pm
This is a common situation, with questions that I see all the time.
You are not alone. :)

535 does not mean Lightning 535, but you may have the piston from one, maybe. The Lightning was really not much different anyway.

The answers to your other questions are a bit more complicated.
The short answer is that if you intend to keep the bike near stock, there will be no increases in cruising speeds, period.  The only way to increase cruising speeds at all is to do some level of performance modification, which realistically entails a full engine rebuild with better quality internal parts. There are various ways to approach this, and it can be done at various budget levels, but it is not going to fall into the "inexpensive" category as usually defined by Bullet owners. So, there will need to be some level of desire to sink a bit of money into the bike, and the desire to keep it when it is done. It's going to be in the thousands, not in the hundreds, even if you do the labor yourself.

So, if you want more detail about how to get there, making performance Bullets is what we do, and we know all the tricks and budget methods to do it. If you want to go further with this idea, we can talk.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:22:27 pm by ace.cafe »
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Blltrdr

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Reply #2 on: December 21, 2014, 12:59:02 am
Where do you live now? If you live in the US have you tried registering the bike. Have you registered this bike or looked into it. Many people bring these bikes back just to find out that they can't be registered. Many of these mutant Bullets show up on ebay with no way to title. If you find yourself a US model frame w/VIN and use that to build the bike you can probably get it registered. So before you start spending money make sure you have this taken care of.
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JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #3 on: December 21, 2014, 11:12:36 pm
I live in the U.S, in VA.  There wouldn't be any way to title it as an "Antique" or a specialty vehicle that only gets so many miles/year put on it? 

Ace, my thinking for the rebuild is that we would get the 535cc alloy barrel and the uprated oil pump and go from there.  We could re-use the piston and most of the internal components that we have, because the motor has virtually zero miles.  I've seen some talk about the big end roller bearings, is that what you mean about the "better quality internal parts"? I'm sure there's much more than that, but that would be a start, I'm sure. 

We're definitely on a budget, because my father is the one bankrolling this, and it's been hard to get him financially interested in the project.  Although it is his bike, and would be one of the coolest things we've built thus far, I've had to basically drag him to be able to get this far.  He says he wants to do it "at minimum cost", which is why I spent 5 or 6 hours today stripping the paint off of various parts.  However, if we were to simply rebuild the motor stock, we would not be able to use half the roads around here (We live in Northern VA), because most of the highways have speed limits of 50 or above, and that's too close to piston-seizure for comfort or safety.

Worst case scenario, I graduate from college this May, and if I get a decent job right off, I'll just buy the thing from him so I can finish it myself. Any suggestions for a bare-bones budget rebuild?


rvcycleguy

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Reply #4 on: December 21, 2014, 11:50:46 pm
My 2 cents...  I've got a 56 Bullet 500.  I ride my bike at a steady 55mph for miles and miles.  One of the best pieces of advice I received is to not run it that fast for too long a stretch.  I make sure I slow the bike to 30-35 every 20-30 minutes or so.  By alternating the speed, you'll cool it down and make sure the oil pump is not starving.  I've pushed it as fast as 65+ a number of times for a short stretch and not had any issues.  It should run 45-50 all day.  I also have some fast roads near me and I certainly cannot utilize the freeway at all.  The boulevards, parkways, frontage roads are all safe for me and also give me that alternating speed I require with intermittent signal lights and an occasional stop for a rest break.  Generally the bike will tell you where is best for speed with a nice groove or vibration will decrease and you'll know it and feel it.  Enjoy.  Remember what roads this bike had in its day and available when it was produced. 

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ace.cafe

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Reply #5 on: December 22, 2014, 01:38:21 pm
Okay,first we need to understand that "zero miles" doesn't mean that certain parts don't need to be replaced for adding performance to the machine.  They were borderline insufficient for the stock machine when they were put in at the factory. So, if we need to up the performance of the machine to do higher cruising speeds, then these things also must be uprated, or unreliability will occur.

Unfortunately, the weakest points in the Bullet engine are in the bottom end of the engine, where a full tear-down is needed to get at them. But, this is the reality of it. The connecting rod, the big end bearing, and the main bearings all need to be replaced with better parts, and the crankshaft re-assembled and trued properly. This is the very first step to getting the engine able to withstand even a little more power. There are various places that offer this service, ourselves included, and our hosts, and it will generally cost between $900-$1200 for the crank rebuilt with steel Carrillo rod and Alpha bearing, and a set of good main bearings, anywhere you go. That's the start.

Then, we have a bottom end built that can take whatever level of power we want to dish out. We add the alloy barrel to assist cooling, as you previously mentioned. The standard stock piston is no good. If you really do have a 535, it may have a better piston, or it may not. I would like to see a photo of that piston you have, so it can be determined what one it is. In most cases, they are not very good, when coming from India. But, we'll see. The piston is a very important item in these engines, because the weight of it, and the ability of it to resist seizing are critical to engine reliability, and the piston is one of the most vulnerable parts in this engine. When you decide whether to use your existing piston, or get another one, the choice will be made about how much compression that your engine is going to make. This will have a lot to do with the performance, and what other parts will be suitable for the build.

Then we come to the cylinder head, and induction and exhaust systems. This is where power is made. There are a variety of ways to go with heads, carbs, exhausts, and cams. Too complicated to get into in this post, but it can get costly, or it can be relatively affordable, depending on what you want out of  it. If you want to increase your cruising speeds, you will need to do some of this, because you will need to produce enough power to overcome the wind drag at the higher road speeds, and wind drag increases as an exponential function of the speed, so it creates quite an additional load on the engine. The problem is not so much getting bursts of speed for passing, but for the long term cruising speeds where heat can build up. We aim to improve the efficiency so that more heat from the fuel is used to make power, and less heat is wasted into the castings where it can build up and cause overheating.

We have made dozens of Bullets which are capable of cruising speeds as high as 80mph, and top speeds over 100mph. So, we know what it takes to do it. And we know how to get a significant improvement at somewhat reduced budget costs, as long as you realize that cutting corners may/will have a reliability reduction or performance reduction, or both.

You may contact me by PM or email if you would like further details and costs that we might suggest for your desired budget.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 01:46:18 pm by ace.cafe »
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JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 04:24:54 pm
Here is a picture of the piston. It says "NUSA" on the top, and i'm assuming the 8700 refers to the bore.  Good news that it's made in the U.S.? I also looked at our carburetor, and it's a 28mm Micarb. Is that any better than stock? 28 seems small compared to the 32 and 34mm carbs i've seen in the catalogue. 

We have the motor torn down right now.  Can these new main/big-end bearings be installed by a home mechanic? We've done our fair share of engine work.

Any other pics of components you need, i can get you, i live right above the garage, haha.

-James


JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #7 on: December 22, 2014, 04:25:42 pm
Here's another, better pic of the piston:


ace.cafe

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Reply #8 on: December 22, 2014, 04:39:09 pm
Well, I'm not able to accurately identify that piston.
But, it seems to be better than the stock Enfield piston. It looks like it has a 3-piece oil ring, which is a plus. I don't know who makes replacement rings for it, but I'm sure that they could be made. Also looks like a compression increase.
I wouldn't bet on "NUSA" meaning it is from the US.

Regarding changing the big end bearing, people have done it. It would help if you have experience taking apart 5-piece pressed-up cranks and pressing them back together and truing them.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 04:41:25 pm by ace.cafe »
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JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #9 on: December 22, 2014, 05:08:27 pm
Is there any way to tell what kind of bearings the bottom end already has without having to tear the crank completely apart? To me, with an increase in compression, it would follow that other work has been done to strengthen the motor, if the bottom end is as weak as they say.


High On Octane

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Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 05:11:05 pm
Is the conrod aluminum or steel?
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ace.cafe

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Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 05:33:16 pm
Is the conrod aluminum or steel?

+1.

If there is a steel rod in there, I will fall over from shock. :o
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JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #12 on: December 22, 2014, 07:22:58 pm
I attached a picture of my conrod. I'm not exactly sure, but it looks to be aluminum. I also attached a picture of one of the rocker boxes, i think they were listed as the "performance rockers" in one of the catalogues i was flipping through, how much do those typically help performance?


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Reply #13 on: December 22, 2014, 07:49:52 pm
Here's another, better pic of the piston:

That looks to me like a 'high compression piston' sold alongside the '535 big bore kit' by our hosts.  They have used different configurations of pistons in this kit over the years but since you have the numbers off the piston, can probably supply rings. 

This is probably way better than the stock piston.  At least it won't fly apart with a crown separation like the stock items are prone to do.  However it is increased compression so I wouldn't use it with stock deck height unless you change the intake cam timing to drop the dynamic compression a bit.  It is also very heavy compared to some of the alternative choices, so if was me I would not use it on a stock alu rod, which is what you appear to have. 

The rocker arms are aftermarket.  This engine has been modified pretty substantially.


JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #14 on: December 22, 2014, 07:59:29 pm
That's why i'm trying to figure out what parts are actually on this motor. I don't want to slap it all back together and then have the whole thing come apart due to the wrong parts being used, or due to the motor being set up wrong.

It's good to know that it has been modified to a decent extent, because hopefully the parts i've got, plus a bottom end rebuild with better parts) would set me over the edge to truly have something special on my hands. 


Hoosier Bullet

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Reply #15 on: December 22, 2014, 08:09:20 pm
That's why i'm trying to figure out what parts are actually on this motor. I don't want to slap it all back together and then have the whole thing come apart due to the wrong parts being used, or due to the motor being set up wrong.

It's good to know that it has been modified to a decent extent, because hopefully the parts i've got, plus a bottom end rebuild with better parts) would set me over the edge to truly have something special on my hands.


You are on the right track.  Steel rod, better bearings, alloy 535 cylinder, clubman head, 32 mm carb will get you what you are looking for in a reasonable budget. 


ace.cafe

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Reply #16 on: December 22, 2014, 08:14:48 pm
The con rod is stock aluminum, which also means that the big end bearing is the stock floating bush, and probably the main bearings are the stock ones, if not worse.

The rockers are aftermarket, appearing to be Samrat, which would be a good rocker to have, but they don't give any more performance than stock. They are a little lighter, which could help with higher rpms, but they, in and of themselves, do not increase power.

The "Mikarb 28" which you described your bike having earlier is the stock carb.

We understand that you have a basket case on your hands there, and you want to put it together in a good way that serves your needs for the performance level you have in mind.
This can be done.
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JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #17 on: December 22, 2014, 08:27:54 pm
I'll do some thinking on it, and will try to persuade my father to build this thing the right way. I've been after him to start on this thing for years...

Ace, I'll send you an email once I figure out what we want to do with it. We're working on getting the frame in order right now, the motor will come later, and i'll begin cataloguing parts so I know exactly what we've got.


JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #18 on: December 22, 2014, 09:09:34 pm
Final question, however.

I want to know if the heads have been modified. Is there anything obvious to look for?


JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #19 on: December 22, 2014, 09:13:18 pm
Here's a pic of the head.


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Reply #20 on: December 22, 2014, 09:14:54 pm
And the underside...


ace.cafe

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Reply #21 on: December 22, 2014, 10:19:21 pm
Looks like it has been run hot, with burned-on black oil in the rocker wells.
Appears to have a threaded insert in the spark plug hole.
Stock valves and valve springs/retainers. Chamber looks pretty clean. I presume you cleaned it.
Lash cap looks pretty beat up.
 Valves look seated a bit deep.
Lots of crud/dirt/mud around the outside of the decompressor.
Seen many like this. It has been around the block a few times.

Can't see the ports. If there is a 28 Mikarb on it, it probably isn't ported. They don't usually do much porting in India.
So, probably not modded, but repaired a few times.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 10:26:02 pm by ace.cafe »
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JamesJoeyKing

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Reply #22 on: December 22, 2014, 10:25:24 pm
I glanced inside the exhaust port, it's pretty nasty in there. Maybe I'll be able to convince my old man to get them re-done "the right way".


cafeman

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Reply #23 on: December 27, 2014, 12:46:25 am
     Before I start building this bike again, I want to know if there is any way to marginally improve the top-speed of these bikes.  I've seen people say multiple times not to go over 55-60 mph to prevent the piston from seizing.  I've seen the alloy barrels, as well as the up-rated oil pumps (but people say the new pump doesn't actually do much to cool the top end?).  Will the alloy barrel cool it down enough to comfortable improve top speeds?  I'm not looking for much, maybe 10 more mph, but just to the point that I don't have to worry about *accidentally* not minding my speed, especially on the roads around here. 

Any help is appreciated! Including any other information that will help me in the future, what to watch for, etc.  Thanks!

-James

I think it really depends on the amount of money you have to "play" with, and how you intend on using/abusing it. While many of us would love to just go "all in" ( simply put, there's "bare bones" all the way up to "nothing but the best", and then the vast waste land in between) how much money you have to play with, common sense, skill set, and time available, etc all play an important role in determining how one approaches a rebuild. You could simply at a minimum source an alloy barrel and have a quality piston fitted to it, do the usual simple bolt-on enhancements along with proper tuning, ride it responsibly (which would be about what you are describing as your intentions) and have a nice enjoyable bike with minimal cash invested, or time, but that would have to be ridden with respect and restraint. If you want to run up to and over 100mph, do 1/4 mile blasts, run down the interstate at 80mph all day, flog it good and rotten, then there is "all in"  But along with that comes the price one has to pay, and work required to get there. You can't have "that" going bare bones, take short cuts, or build on a low-budget only to fall victim to flogging it because the bike can do it. It can do it but odds are it won't do "it" for long. :-[  There's forged pistons, cast pistons, alloy rods, steel rods, floating bush mains, roller mains, big cams, stock re-phased cams, alloy pushrods......on and on. Anything US/Euro aftermarket will be a quality piece in most cases.  Don't build overkill and drain your wallet and bank account thinking it's the only way to go lest the motor will grenade first twist of the wrist.  If you race, ride hard and are abusive then your only option is top shelf. Intentions and cash flow are the key. IMO  ;)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 12:51:35 am by cafeman »


ace.cafe

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Reply #24 on: December 27, 2014, 02:20:08 pm
Okay, there is another thread started in the Iron Barrel Engine section, by a guy who has this same NUSA piston.
So, I did a little digging because I became curious about this thing.

NUSA is a Swiss company. It is possible that this was the company which made the 87mm pistons for Fritz Egli and his "Super Bullets". And it follows that is also possible that this company then supplied those pistons to RE for their Lightning 535 models. So yes, it is plausible that this piston might be from a Lightning, or indeed the entire engine may be a Lightning 535 engine. I don't know.

However, I did find the NUSA website, and they have a piston ring page which I linked below. It is in French, and I can't read French, but a translator program might work for you. There are other pages for pistons and other stuff that they make. You could presumably find out more about that piston, and also about getting parts such as rings pins and clips.

http://www.nusa.ch/pistons.php

If it is the Lightning piston, then it should be a 7.25:1 compression dome, which is not really enough for the current crop of performance building products available today. However, it would work okay with standard cams and standard cam timing, for moderate power upgrade like the Lightning had. This stuff has all been surpassed a long time ago, but it is not bad stuff, and it will always do what it did back then.

So, mystery solved!
Personally, I would look at a more modern piston with some more compression(such as the ACE 535 piston 8)) when contemplating a performance rebuild with the products available today.  But if you HAD to put that back in, presuming that it has no damage or bad wear or defect, it would be better than using a stock RE 500 piston by a long shot.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 02:26:43 pm by ace.cafe »
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