Author Topic: Black vs Green Transistor Control Unit  (Read 12021 times)

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tooseevee

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on: October 11, 2014, 09:11:10 pm
      Can some of you electronics wizards out there answer me two questions?

       1.  What does the TCI DO?

       2.  What is the difference between the Black TCI (OEM on my '08) & the Green (Upgrade) TCI relative to how it actually effects the engine? 

       PS: Yes. I've had the green one on for a long time.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


ace.cafe

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Reply #1 on: October 11, 2014, 09:39:42 pm
The black one is affected by sagging voltage during e-starting, and it over-advances the timing during this voltage sag, thus causing kickbacks.
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DanB

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Reply #2 on: October 11, 2014, 10:11:50 pm
Sprag killer aside, I seem to recall Bill Harris stating the original TCI 'pulled harder' and gave better performance. At least with the s cams. Does the green unit retard the advance at start up? 

Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
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tooseevee

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Reply #3 on: October 12, 2014, 12:27:14 am
The black one is affected by sagging voltage during e-starting, and it over-advances the timing during this voltage sag, thus causing kickbacks.

           OK. So the TCIs actually do adjust timing? That was my hidden question.

            So let's take this another step: If the black one OVERadvanced the timing when it detected a voltage decrease does it follow that the green one reTARDs it?

             And the next question: What does the green one do during kick starting? AND

                                                What does the black one do during kick starting?

             I'm going to go to DanB's post & post some more because this whole Subject Thread is his fault  :) :)
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


ace.cafe

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Reply #4 on: October 12, 2014, 12:58:48 am
I don't know what it does, beyond what I wrote above.
As far as I know,  the timing changes were not intentional, it was a flaw. I am not aware that there are any intentional timing changes being done by these units.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 01:08:43 am by ace.cafe »
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tooseevee

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Reply #5 on: October 12, 2014, 01:15:00 am
Sprag killer aside, I seem to recall Bill Harris stating the original TCI 'pulled harder' and gave better performance. At least with the s cams. Does the green unit retard the advance at start up?

          This past week I've played around with a lot of plugs (I have a lot of plugs) while I've tried to kick start this old girl & after it's been running for various amounts of time when I DID get it running (or not) & nothing makes any sense. It still will not kick start first thing in the morning. Sometimes the plug is wet, sometimes dry, sometimes wet & black, sometimes not wet & black. It's been very frustrating because when it's running it runs poifect.

      I've pretty much resigned myself to not being to kick start it cold, but today I thought I'd try what you suggested a while back & switch TCIs back to the black one. One kick & it was running.

       So over the day I've kick started it maybe 6 times all with different lengths of time in between from 30 minutes to three hours. Every time - one or kicks - running.

        The real test will be tomorrow morning. I'll try it with no choke first then wait a while if it doesn't start & try it with choke. I'll know right away if it's going to kick start or not. Godknows I've kicked it enough.

         To be continued.... 
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


tooseevee

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Reply #6 on: October 12, 2014, 01:24:40 am
I don't know what it does, beyond what I wrote above.
As far as I know,  the timing changes were not intentional, it was a flaw. I am not aware that there are any intentional timing changes being done by these units.

            Then I REEly reely don't understand...

             What do they DO? They must DO something.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Adrian II

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Reply #7 on: October 12, 2014, 02:12:01 am
I think this was the clearest explanation I could find after a quick search:

http://fzronline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2398.

Not using the electric start does of course solve the problem of temporary voltage drop causing over-advancing the ignition, and it's not just the Electra-X/AVL Classics that have had this problem. See the comments here about the Mk3 Commando from a Norton fan! http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffypazon.htm

As Bill Harris has dumped his electric starter this would be a permanent solution. Your green TCI box might just be faulty.

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A.
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DanB

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Reply #8 on: October 12, 2014, 03:53:14 am
I think this was the clearest explanation I could find after a quick search:

http://fzronline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2398.

Not using the electric start does of course solve the problem of temporary voltage drop causing over-advancing the ignition, and it's not just the Electra-X/AVL Classics that have had this problem. See the comments here about the Mk3 Commando from a Norton fan! http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffypazon.htm

As Bill Harris has dumped his electric starter this would be a permanent solution. Your green TCI box might just be faulty.

Regards,

A.

Thanks for that Adrian. I don't think 2CVs green box (nothing personal) is faulty. I have a similar issue at start up. I think it has to do with the characteristics of: timing, airflow / mixture when cold, the Mikuni carb. A few folks have looked at my plug chops and have suggested a bit of advance. So I was thinking the old box or performance TCI may tinker ever so slightly with timing at startup.

Have you ever put a timing light on the AVL with TCI?
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
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ace.cafe

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Reply #9 on: October 12, 2014, 04:14:09 am
            Then I REEly reely don't understand...

             What do they DO? They must DO something.
TCI stands for Transistor Controlled Ignition.
They basically substitute a transistor as the ignition trigger, instead of points.
Apparently, they use a Hall Effect sensor to determine when the crank magnet comes around at a specific crank angle, and triggers off that.
What kind of advance system they use inside that box is unknown to me.
What I meant to say, regarding the intentional timing changes, was that I don't know if there is anything done to the timing at the kickstarting rpm condition. I assume that they do have some sort of advance curve built into them at running rpms.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 04:18:17 am by ace.cafe »
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Kevin Mahoney

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Reply #10 on: October 12, 2014, 04:38:27 am
The green unit delays the spark for a revolution or two to help protect the sprag clutch. I suppose that in theory it could make a KS more difficult
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Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 10:29:41 am
This might be relevant, so I will add this - when I was experimenting with the Electra X a few years back, I asked an expert in electronic ignitions if he could give me a CDI [TCI] box with more overall range than the standard one. What he gave me to try formed the basis of the 'Performance TCI' package available in the U.K and the U.S.
 I modified the primary case cover and made relevant marks, so that I could check the timing by strobe. What I found was the new, replacement TCI box gave an extra 8 degrees overall timing range with 4 degrees more retard and 4 degrees more advance compared with the standard one. Any kickback on this machine was eliminated, the tickover was slower and more steady and a slight edge was noticed in performance at higher RPM's.
 The machine I worked on belonged to Hitchcocks and at first, they didn't take the TCI box on as part of a performance kit I was helping them to develop. I had so much faith in these TCI units, I began selling them myself, but when Hitchcocks took them on, I stopped, as they had paid me to help develop their kit and I felt it would be unfair if I continued selling them. I think these TCI boxes are available from CMW as well as Hitchcocks, they are well worth having and I have no financial gains when any are sold.
 B.W.


Kevin Mahoney

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Reply #12 on: October 12, 2014, 02:46:42 pm
I sincerely appreciate your respect for Alan's intellectual property. That speaks volumes about you as a person. This is not a large market proposition and we both invest a lot of money in development. More than we will ever get back sometimes to further the brand.

Most of our customers are like minded and it is another reason this is such a great community.

Are you speaking about the "green" box? The factory told me one time that the 350 box gave you more advance but I never tried it.
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tooseevee

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Reply #13 on: October 12, 2014, 02:50:11 pm
The green unit delays the spark for a revolution or two to help protect the sprag clutch. I suppose that in theory it could make a KS more difficult

          I thought the spark delay was a separate small black box that was plugged INTO the TCI unit. Isn't that why the third plug was added to the original black TCI box, which originally had only two plugs, to plug the delay box into?

           I didn't think the delay was internal to the TCI box. On my '08 it was a small black box in the left side case that I unplugged from the TCI unit & removed from the bike very early on. Removing it made no difference at all to the kick starting or electric starting in the early days of my life with this bike. And the Green box still retains the third plug for the delay box. If the delay was internal to the TCI unit, why does the green unit still have the third plug (for the delay box to plug into)?

            I believe most of my kick start problems now are carb & timing related & maybe a little also from the Ace head mods which have kicked my comp ratio up to 9.8:1 & changed the way the bike sucks & flows air.

             It just might be that my kick stroke is just not powerful enough now (I'm very much weaker now than even 5 years ago & I only weigh 140 pounds) to fire this sucker off when cold. When warm it's a one or two kick starter.

         Yesterday (as I've said) I kicked it to life 6 or 7 times after various cooling times (up to 3 hours) with no problem after changing back to the old black box. It "seemed" to start more easily with just one smooth kick than before, but that might all be in my head. It was VERY hard to avoid kickback with the green box. Not so with the black.

             I know it's because of all the mods that I'm having this kick start problem (& I accept this all, it's what I wanted) because previously with the CV carb, stock head, stock intake, black OR green TCI, it kick started any time, anywhere, hot or cold without a moment's hesitation or drama.

        I just need more time to work it out. We'll see later  this morning how the black box works out when the bike is cold. I have NOT been able to kick start it cold with ANY combination of tuning since the mods so if it kick starts today cold with the black TCI what are we to think????
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 03:03:34 pm by tooseevee »
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Kevin Mahoney

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Reply #14 on: October 12, 2014, 03:07:39 pm
One tip for starting any of the RE's from the iron barrel to the UCE is follow through. I tell people to kick until your shoe (sandal if you live in India) hits the underside of the foot peg. They almost always start in the last 25% of the kick and not before
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