Author Topic: Short to Ground !  (Read 3513 times)

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neil

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on: October 06, 2014, 02:03:43 am
Hi Everyone:
My bike wound up dead on the road recently and I discovered "No Juice" as the root cause. Some investigating showed the alternator had a short to ground. I removed the primary and sure enough, the stator and the armature had rubbed and caused a lot of grinding damage. Got a new alternator with rectifier and regulator from our hosts and installed them. To my surprise, I found out that when I turned on the key, the ammeter again went to full discharge. To save another 20 amp fuse, I turned it off right away. When I reconnect the old Rec. / Reg. and turn on the key - - - no full discharge. Am I to believe the new parts are no good ? ? ?

I ran out of time late this afternoon, so I'll remount the original parts to see if the system works  OK again tomorrow. Yes, I made sure the alternator parts were not rubbing and chaffing against each other. I'm beginning to think the rec/reg. parts are not interchangeable to the ones on my bike.

Strange, remove the new parts and no short; reconnect and ammeter needle goes to full discharge when I turn the ignition switch on.

Neil and Buzzy the Bullet

ps. because this doesn't happen with my old rec./reg. I'm assuming the bike wiring harness is not the cause.   


motorman2whel

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Reply #1 on: October 06, 2014, 03:54:15 pm
In a prior post I saw someone said you need to switch a couple of wires around in the plug of the new regulator wiring. Check the colors in the reg plug vs the bikes wiring plug to see  if they match up.


Chasfield

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Reply #2 on: October 06, 2014, 04:39:03 pm
Don't yet disregard the possibility of a dead short in the harness.

Favourite places are the mushy bundle of wires at the bottom of the casquette and any wires that crunch against the steering head when you turn the bars.

To sniff out shorts, remove the battery. Then see if a short circuit exists in the harness by putting a resistance meter across the vacated battery connectors of the harness. The meter is telling you what the battery is going to 'see' load wise. A low Ohms reading would indicate a problem. 12 Ohms would mean a load of 1 amp. Not a problem. 1 Ohm would mean a load of 12 amps - definitely looking like a problem. Try this again with the various reg/rec and alternator combinations.

B.T.W. 1, if your old reg rec had blown to an open circuit condition then it could look good (no short). The unblown one would look bad because it hasn't melted yet and still gives continuity to the short.

B.T.W. 2, Physical graunching of the alternator rotor against the stator, though mechanically, serious, wouldn't actually cause an immediate electrical problem unless it was so severe as to to have eaten into the alternator windings. You would need a severely shot crank for that to happen.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 04:42:06 pm by Chasfield »
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 04:09:31 am
I can only tell you of my experience with ground shorts, and open circuits, my first was in the wire harness where the bundle rubs on the headset near the front of the tank, it was a black ground that was open when I turned to the left.  The next short was where the pos wire to the battery rubbing on the battery box (that one melted the insulation off the pos wire, lots of smoke, thought my pants were on fire). One short was the rectifier intermittently shorting to ground through the heat sink (replaced that one with a Radio shack rectifier and have not had a problem since).  The fourth short was a hot wire in the nacelle would rub when I went over a bump and turned left.
The message I have is to look very closely at any red wire where  it could rub on the frame, nacelle, engine etc.


Phlakaton

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Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 10:36:23 pm
My short was under the tank over the frame behind the steering headlight cluster.  The whole bundle was wrapped in electrical tape and had fallen down onto the small metal vent pipe -  coming up from the main cylinder head exhaust pipe.  Burned a hole through the tape and into the bundle - which had fallen down onto the frame and killed my fuses and motor from running.
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neil

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Reply #5 on: October 09, 2014, 09:11:32 pm
Following-up to my post about a short, I checked the color coding between the new alternator wiring and the bikes wiring loom. They match. I've also checked for continuity through the old rec/reg and they have continuity and match the readings of the brand new Rec/reg. When I was riding Buzzy, and the failure occurred, no smoke, - - - 20 amp fuse did not blow - - - bike began to mis-fire and then stopped. Battery was dead. After I charged it, lights and horn worked again. With the bullet connectors apart reading on the alternator side of the circuit showed continuity to ground. I did not read the loom side, but I will now.

I ordered a new alternator and rec/reg combination. It was then I learned when installing the rec/reg. that the 20 amp fuse died. Every combination following installation of the new rec/reg pegs the ammeter needle on full discharge which I switch off immediately before I kill another fuse. Very strange indeed.

A week before the failure, I rode buzzy to the New England Enfield riders gathering at National Power Sports dealership in nearby Pembroke NH. Another Enfield rider said he could smell a curious smell when I rode in and he thought my primary was too hot after stopping. I didn't think much of it at the time, but that may have been an indication of trouble.   

Neil and sick Buzzy   


ace.cafe

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Reply #6 on: October 09, 2014, 10:58:11 pm
Make sure that the wires insulation is not worn away at the grommet where they go thru the top of the primary case.
That is a trouble spot.
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azcatfan

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Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 01:57:34 am
Check the blade connectors in the new R/R unit to see if they all go to the same alt leads as the old ones.  When I got a new R/R for my bike and hooked it up, it did exactly what you're saying.  I had to switch a few of the blade connectors around in the pig tail to make it jive with the alternator.
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motorman2whel

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Reply #8 on: October 11, 2014, 03:10:54 am
It doesn't make sense that both regulator/rectifiers test out the same but one is a dead short and one isn't. Did you do a diode check? . If the old reg/rect isn't a dead short, did you try running the bike with it and the new stator to see if its charging? .


neil

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Reply #9 on: October 11, 2014, 08:12:36 pm
Hi all and Ascatfan especially:

It's nice to hear of someone else who has had the same difficulty as I have. I began to think I was crazy, - - - maybe not. I did not know you could change the positioning of the blades in the 4 wire connector between the alt. pigtail and the rec / reg. I'll check to see if they match. If they don't, how do I go about getting them out of the connector to change them?

Neil

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Blltrdr

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Reply #10 on: October 11, 2014, 09:01:05 pm
Hi all and Ascatfan especially:

It's nice to hear of someone else who has had the same difficulty as I have. I began to think I was crazy, - - - maybe not. I did not know you could change the positioning of the blades in the 4 wire connector between the alt. pigtail and the rec / reg. I'll check to see if they match. If they don't, how do I go about getting them out of the connector to change them?

Neil

 and Buzzy the Bullet.

Most have a little tang on top of the terminal that catches when it slides into it's slot in the plastic connector. I think they sell a tool that will depress it so you can pull it out. A small thin screwdriver or something similar can also work. It doesn't take much to get it to release.
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azcatfan

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Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 04:08:37 am
Hi all and Ascatfan especially:

It's nice to hear of someone else who has had the same difficulty as I have. I began to think I was crazy, - - - maybe not. I did not know you could change the positioning of the blades in the 4 wire connector between the alt. pigtail and the rec / reg. I'll check to see if they match. If they don't, how do I go about getting them out of the connector to change them?

Neil

 and Buzzy the Bullet.

Small flat head screw driver will do the trick...

Most have a little tang on top of the terminal that catches when it slides into it's slot in the plastic connector. I think they sell a tool that will depress it so you can pull it out. A small thin screwdriver or something similar can also work. It doesn't take much to get it to release.

What he said   8)

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neil

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Reply #12 on: October 29, 2014, 02:25:58 pm
Hi All:
More news on my shorted bullet, Buzzy. All electrical circuits work ! Headlight, tiny indicators, directionals, tail light, stop lights and horn. This all when the battery is supplying power, and I'm on my old Rec. / Reg. When I hookup the new R / R and turn on the ignition, ammeter pegs to full discharge and 20 amp fuse blows unless I immediately shut off the ignition.

The leads from the new alternator are color coded correctly to the bikes wiring loom. Yesterday, I pulled the leads apart at the junction between the alternator and the loom and consulted the super service factory manual I have and did some checking with my ohm meter and discovered the new alternator windings that surround the magnetic armature are where the short exists. There should not be continuity to ground from the yellow lead or either of the violet leads. When I check with my ohm meter continuity became evident. Bummer ! ! ! The alternator is brand new from Enfield Gear.

I've done a visual inspection and can't see where any of the windings are touching the frame they are mounted in. I'll take it to the dealer to see if they can isolate where the short is and fix it. Otherwise I'll be buying another one. I don't need the magnet part, just the field windings. If I can get this resolved, I should be back in business. Not much riding season left, but I'll be ready to go this spring.

Neil and Buzzy the Bullet.


ace.cafe

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Reply #13 on: October 29, 2014, 03:10:57 pm
Glad you found it. It is disappointing to find a brand new part that is defective, but it does happen.
Just be very careful when you put that new one in, that the leads are well protected where they go thru that grommet in the top of the inner primary case, and also that you get a good gap between the rotor and stator before tightening the nuts.
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neil

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Reply #14 on: October 29, 2014, 04:11:50 pm
Thanks Tom and of course good advice. I did make sure of proper gap when I installed the new alternator. I had a local machine shop turn a few thousands off the rotor in order to make sure there was clearance between the two. Magnetism is strong on the rotor and it would probably be generating plenty of power if the stator wasn't compromised. I'm hoping to have the stator checked to see if there is something I'm missing.
Otherwise I'll return the stator to see about a refund of the price toward another one. I'm hoping this will do the trick. It's been a long battle with Electrickery !

Neil and Buzzy.