[LJRead]

Yeah, I know you are right, Mike, but it is like a new baby to me.  I have these visions of the head and upper cylinder carbonizing up and having to tear it all down to get the carbon out.  Pete Snidal said an interesting thing, that if it is a soot and not a wet carbon deposit on the plug, it is likely that the spark pug isn't firing strongly enough at idle.  But since it is CDI electronic ignition, there is no adjustment.  I can, however, check the contacts and make sure they are good.Already, gas mileage seems to be improving and today I was looking at the smoke and it isn't much.  My manifold opening is 28 mm by the way and not 26 which is the opening of the 350 Bullets.  I take it you're still cranking on the mileage Mike  Way to go!

LJ

[clamp]

I hear exessive oil in the crank case when starting up will cause the smoke?

    How does it get up into the combustion chamber? isnt a cars wet sump crank case full of oil too.

   You are assuming that parking the engine at TDC will stop any syphon effect of oil into the crank case from the timing case, but  the main bearings are oil fed too!!  dont you think that oil will more likely seep down the timing  gears into the crank shaft bearing and into the crank case.

        Any way the problem is none of that because the smoke is black. I would have thought that running that rich would mean a fowled plug every 10miles if you lucky.

   How come you got a Dellorto carb on anyway.

[baird4444]

Yeah, I know you are right, Mike, but it is like a new baby to me.Already, gas mileage seems to be improving and today I was looking at the smoke and it isn't much.  My manifold opening is 28 mm by the way and not 26 which is the opening of the 350 Bullets.  I take it you're still cranking on the mileage Mike  Way to go!

LJ

I haven't been on for 10 days...   maybe by the end of the week.
I had one of those hernia things fixed with a screen on the 18th. There is
NO WAY I'm going to stay off for 8 weeks... I'm thinking 2 or 3 but I'll just
have to see how it feels the first time I put it on the center stand.
I've got a list of things that I'm doing to it, it's not as good as riding
but the daily contact is good for BOTH of us!!
              - Mike

[LJRead]

West sumping is something I can never quite get a handle on either, but has something to do with the way the oil is channeled when it leaves the main oil chamber, running down through the crank at its low position and into the sump.  It causes a cloud of smoke on starting.  Mine has a slight smoke even after a ride, so it isn't wet sumping.  And it is so slight that when I accelerate I guess most of the soot burns off.  The plug has only fouled once. The Del'Orto was manufactured under license to the Italian company by and Indian one called Spaco.  It was only used on my year model of Machismo, then discontinued for the CV, which is more fuel efficient.

Mike, sorry to hear of your reduced riding, but I think those things heal up real well.  My next door neighbor growing up had a screen put in and I think it was a done issue once it was put right.  He got it pushing my old hot rod trying to get it started.  Always felt a little guilty about that.

[clamp]

I think this is something to do with the rings and the way they bed in. I have nursed mine through 1000Kms as told to do buy RE and by many web sites.

  However I found a web site that says do not do this , the rings must be bedded in and this means thrashing it from day one. Now as a mechanic all my life till retirment I know from experience that an engine that has been used hard from day one is better than one run about by an old lady.

       I am riding mine hard now and purposely heading for the hills to give it 1-2 minutes of hard pull.  It does nt smoke at all,--ever.

    I have also used a whole tin of Wynns friction crap. Half in the engine 1/4 in the  chain case and 1/4 in the gearbox.   I got a real nice bike.

   PS  I do not mean racing 1500rpm to 2500 RPM give it some.  Ille try to find that web site.

[clamp]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080407130440AAYP4fO

   A lot of different opinions , but this is the one I wanted to show you.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[LJRead]

Couple of things about this, Clamp.  First, the last article you cite is distinguishing between old technology bikes and new ones, and says the window of opportunity to use the honing lines is in the first twenty miles when you use hard riding tactics.  I'm not sure what technology was used in creating ours. Well, my bike came with 19 km on it, so the window was already pretty well closed.  Then you have to remove the cylinder, rehone, and hard ride for twenty miles.  Second, mine doesn't use any oil and the plug soot is just that, a light soot which Pete Snidal says may be due to not hot enough spark at the low RPMs, or a too rich idle circuit.  However, because it is dry like this, it may be the former, not hot enough spark at low RPMs

Pete also says, and has said for years, not to hone an engine on rebuild, that it isn't necessary and may not be good.  I think, now that I have 850 km on it, I will open it up a little and see how it goes.  I can't go very fast, but I can get the revs up by staying in a lower gear.

We have had one forum member, Dewey, who advocated hard break in and seems to have had good luck with breaking his in like that, so he would be in your circle of agreement.

I still have more reading to do in what you have presented ...

Thanks,

LJ

[clamp]

Honing on a rebuild is very important, I cant believe someone would say that it was'nt.

     Even if you don't call it honing which is actually taking it right down to size to the thou.  Glaze busting  is very necessary to get the worn cylinder ready for new rings.

[LJRead]

It is sort of like the break in hard or soft controversy.  I'll see what I can find on the honing controversy, but those who say don't do it have their reasons and are pretty adamant about it.  I think they are saying it makes the cylinder worse instead of better.  I was a bit surprised too, but their arguments seem clear enough, and on the practical side, many, including Pete Snidal, have been rebuilding without honing for years with no problem.  I think what they say is like your reference says about honing, the honing is to smooth off the ridges but the rings will do that better themselves., but it has been a while since I read their ideas, so maybe there are other reasons as well.

Anyway, when I find something for you to read I will let you know.

[LJRead]

Yeah clamp, I found it in his manual (it was also on some websites but I don't have links to them). Here is what Pete says:

"When fitting new rings to a used bore, ALWAYS be careful to use only cast iron rings.  Chrome-Moly rings, although often used in new installations, will not seat on a used bore, unless the bore is throughly scratched up with a hone, or, as it is often mistakenly called, a "de-glazer". 
The rapid wear associated with the practice, as the scratches in the cylinder wear down and the cylinder wears to a large size, obviate most of the good done by re-ringing.For this reason, honing a used bore should not be considered, and only cast iron rings, which will seat on a worn bore, should be used in a re-ring. ."

He goes on to call the idea of the need for honing n "old wives tale" and concludes by saying:

"Those who trust this advice will be repaid by considerably less break in wear, and subsequent tighter clearances once the new rings have worn in."

He says, in effect, that there will be enough friction causing wear to allow the rings to seat without tending to make the clearances excessive by honing, and that excessive clearances will cause oil burning.

There was something said in the links about glazing, but apparently it isn't the problem it is made out to be.

I tend to rely on Pete because he has the experience and I know so little.

LJ

[PhilJ]

When they talk about honing, LJ, their not taking any metal off to speak of. It is just like lightly rubbing with steel wool, only controlled so that every thing is uniform. Over the years my friend and I, mostly him, rebuilt many engines and always used  a hone with no problems. I really think Clamp is talking about what I just described. The roughing up of the cylinder allows a little oil to remain, thereby reducing the friction (read that heat) which is what you want. I think Pete Snidal is wrong, at least if that is a direct quote from Snidal.

[PhilJ]

On my AVL 500 I took it easy for a little over a hundred miles, then started running it up to 50 mph and back down, then to 60 and back, then once to 70 and back. All this through the course of a 100 mile day. Never a hard run up, just medium. I didn't hold at those speeds either, just backed off to 45 or so. I did stop throughout the course of the day. I never discerned any oil usage, the bike runs very well and has given no problems. Now the AVL is CNC manufactured, I'm not sure I would have done the same thing to an iron barreled bike that was brand new. But I don't think I would have babied it like the book say either. There would have been lot more rest/cool down stops.

[LJRead]

I haven't done a lot of honing, just on an old Volvo marine engine I have, and in that case, I rented a honing system from a machine shop (in the U.S.) and it scratched it up pretty well, and I think this sort of thing is what Pete refers to (yes it is a direct quote from his manual).  And, when you read the link clamp refers to they are talking about actually grooving the cylinder to provide ridges to wear the rings in.  It is controversial however, with strong supporters of both sides. Pete feels there is enough friction in installing the iron rings to allow them to seat in.  And he is definitely referring to the iron cylindered engine.

I hope I never have to do a rebuild so much of this is just talk with me, but I enjoy that too!

My bike is running so well and not burning oil so I will take Mike Baird's advice  and just ride.

[PhilJ]

Yes I understood the bit about the friction. That was my point friction = heat, but no grooves or the like would I do. However, with fine or very fine honing pushed back and forth for just a little you get the gentle scuff that will hold the oil and prevent excessive friction. I doesn't take log for rings to seat if it did there would be a lot of complaining about oil consumption. Rings are by their very nature are springy, their gaps overlap preventing oil usage and expand as the cylinder hones in to a mirror finish. The increased size of the bore is almost immeasurable.

[LJRead]

I'm sure that what Pete is talking of is a far more abrasive system than you use, Phil.  The honing system I rented was used with an electric drill and consisted of abrasive balls, as I recall, on the end of wires or string and they would spin around and do the abrading.  I too doubt that they went that deep, and your system seems fine, and, like you say, would hold a bit of oil for the process.  Some of these controversies do seem like a lot of hot air (from friction?) and honing is tried and true. 

I think roughing it up just a bit would be a good idea.