Author Topic: another strange noise/"vibration"  (Read 15558 times)

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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #15 on: July 12, 2014, 03:10:21 am
PJ1 is the world's worst chain lube. It is a sticky gooey mess that gets all over the bike, and is very difficult to get off. I used Maxima chain wax for quite a while, it doesn't fling off, but I also wondered if it was penetrating the chain well. Then I found Belray "clean" chain lube about a year ago, and haven't used anything else since.

I am going to continue using non O-ring chains on the Enfield, as I do not want to regear it higher. But with an O-ring chain, all you need to do is coat the chain. The lube will not get past the O-rings anyway. I also use a non O-ring chain on my dual sport bike, as the AZ sand chews up O-rings in a hurry. I have 2 chains for that. I keep one soaking in oil, and just swap them out, a 10 min job.

I also run my chains slightly loose. A too tight chain can do some serious transmission damage.

I also would check the rear brake. It may have become uncentered while adjusting the chain. Also note that if you are running the bike in gear with the wheel off the ground, there is always going to be some jerking in the chain. That is caused by the engines power pulses, and play in the transmission gears. Even shaft drive bikes do it. With no load on it, the rear wheel will constantly speed up and slow down.

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mattsz

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Reply #16 on: July 12, 2014, 11:08:57 am
As for flinging off when you reoil the chain, the PJ1 has about the least fling of anything I've tried.

PJ1 is the world's worst chain lube. It is a sticky gooey mess that gets all over the bike, and is very difficult to get off.

Ok, so we've had different experiences with the stuff, like most everything else to do with these bikes.  Let's move on.

Quote
I also would check the rear brake. It may have become uncentered while adjusting the chain. Also note that if you are running the bike in gear with the wheel off the ground, there is always going to be some jerking in the chain. That is caused by the engines power pulses, and play in the transmission gears. Even shaft drive bikes do it. With no load on it, the rear wheel will constantly speed up and slow down.

I always center the rear brake when I mess with the back end - it's never given me a problem.  The noise and feel really seem to be coming from the area around my right foot.  As for the jerking chain, I wondered if what I saw was something like that.

I'll start by loosening the chain as much as I can to really examine its condition.  If I don't see anything obvious, I'll remove it and examine it again - check for obvious wear or stretching.  I suppose the smart thing to do would be to put another chain on and see if that solves the problem.

I wonder if I could get my OEM chain back on?  Anybody know if the Tsubaki master link clips would work on the OEM chain?


ROVERMAN

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Reply #17 on: July 12, 2014, 04:35:00 pm
Sorry for the late entry here Mattsz but i had a similar issue with the chain on REnfield. 3 of my links had started to rust and seize and jumped just like yours. This was the stock chain and i managed to get it to function properly after some PB and WD 40 treatment. I was going to replace the chain soon but sold it instead. I would pull it and check each link and see if you can get it freed up, good luck.
Robert.


barenekd

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Reply #18 on: July 12, 2014, 11:16:14 pm
Mine was a Tsubaki too. They're both good chains. As for the brakes, after you set the chain adjusters, you should tighten the brake adjuster down to lock the wheel before you start to tighten the axle and brake nuts. This will ensure your brake shoes are centered and you're getting contact out of both shoes when you apply the brakes. It should take very little brake pedal movement when you adjust the brake adjuster to the point that the shoes aren't dragging to the brake being fully locked. With the long brake pedal arms, they will take longer stroke than my rear sets, but it should be not more a than about 1/2". The rearsets' pedal took about 1/4" to lock the wheel.
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AussieDave

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Reply #19 on: July 13, 2014, 02:43:21 am
I think you just need to ride that sucker more Matt! If ye keep that chain moving in wont get a chance to lock up  :)
 And as far as I can tell with the chains I've replaced , the master links were identical.... I always keep a spare in my tool kit- so you shouldn't have any troubles there. Cheers , Dave.
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mattsz

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Reply #20 on: July 13, 2014, 11:54:54 am
Thanks guys!

The brake feels fine, and works well - I always adjust it as you recommended, Bare.

I know the o-ring chain is wider than the OEM, so I'm just assuming that the master links aren't interchangeable.  Maybe the clips are the same; that's all I would need to put my old chain back on, as a test.  I should have been more careful removing it!

I'll get to all this in the next day or so... I'm away from home, test-driving cars: I think it's finally time to shoot my 2000 Honda Civic in the head.  I hate car shopping...


mattsz

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Reply #21 on: July 13, 2014, 10:26:48 pm
Finally home...

I looked at my chains, but I don't really know the significance of all I've observed - so hopefully you smart guys will chime in:

I checked my chains for stretch by laying them out and pushing all the links together as close as I could, then I held one end still and pulled the other end to measure the overall stretch.  The OEM chain, which has 2000 miles on it, stretched almost exactly 1/4 inch.  The 4000 mile Tsubaki 530 o-ring chain stretched more, 5/16 inch.  I didn't expect the "good" chain to be have more play than the OEM, but I don't know how much there was when it was new, so it doesn't really mean anything to me.

I doubled each chain over and held them sideways to see how much they sagged - they seemed to be about the same, and neither seemed too bad.  I have no idea what's "good", or what the radius of the bend might have been...

Next, I checked for stiff links: I doubled the chains and held them, hanging vertically, by their ends with the ends touching.  Then I slowly lowered one end down, keeping the two parts in contact, and observed as each link descended, took a sharp bend, and remained stationary as the rest continued down.  Repeat with other end.

OEM first: It's dirty, but the links basically straighten by themselves under the weight of the chain.  There is a little resistance in some, but when I examine those closely, all flex freely enough.

Tsubaki:  This is harder, because even when it was new, each link had a certain stiffness, due I guess to the grease and o-rings sealing them.  The links still all have that stiffness, where the weight of the hanging chain slowly pulls the links basically sort of kinda straight.  But there are a couple that were properly stuck, and when I work them individually by hand, I can move them but they really don't want to go.  I can't imagine that it's doing the bike or the chain any good, and I'm willing to bet that these links were the ones that felt hot after my ride.  Multiple WD-40 baths for those links and lots of working between dips doesn't help too much.

So the next thing I think I'll do is put the old chain back on, as a test.  But first, I'd like to clean it well and lube it as best I can: what's the best approach?  Some sort of soak while it's off the bike?  In what, mineral spirits?  kero?  If I do that, is it enough to spray lube it once it's on the bike?

And, what about the o-ring chain?  I sprayed some WD-40 in a cup and tried to dip a few of the end links and get them loosened up.  A lot of black stuff came off, and the links look much cleaner, but they are only marginally looser.  Just how floppy should the o-ring-sealed links be?


Arizoni

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Reply #22 on: July 14, 2014, 01:41:11 am
Sorry to say it but IMO, your aftermarket chain is junk.

There shouldn't be any tight links anywhere.  :(

Jim
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mattsz

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Reply #23 on: July 14, 2014, 01:57:32 am
Arizoni - I have no experience with o-ring chains other than the one in my oil catch pan.  Should a new one be perfectly loose and flexible, or would you expect there to be a bit of friction between the links due to the o-ring seals?

I'm trying to get a sense of whether it's just trashed now, or if it started bad...


Arizoni

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Reply #24 on: July 14, 2014, 02:01:26 am
It will have quite a bit more resistance to bending than a standard chain because the O-rings tend to bind it up a bit.

Although the resistance to bending is easily felt with our fingers, the sprockets won't mind it at all.

The thing of it is, all of the links in the chain should feel about the same.  There should not be any "tight" links.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


mattsz

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Reply #25 on: July 14, 2014, 02:06:56 am
I definitely have a couple of tight links.  They aren't completely stuck, but they take some effort.

Is there any point in trying to clean the chain and see if they loosen up, or is it likely there's damage inside the seals?


Arizoni

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Reply #26 on: July 14, 2014, 02:20:41 am
IMO, if the WD40 bath and bending didn't loosen it up it's probably beyond help.

It's possible it was just made wrong and it always has been tight.

For those interested, the ratio of the rear sprocket and the drive sprocket result in odd numbers.  If we were talking about gears meshing, that is called a "hunting tooth".
Sprockets and chains aren't different in the way they operate so the result of this hunting tooth is the same chain link only rarely engages the same tooth.

That keeps the gear teeth or, in this case the sprocket from developing a fault from engaging with the same damaged link(s) thus, it spreads out the wear.

Even so, it is highly recommended you buy a new chain and re-install the old one until you get it.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


mattsz

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Reply #27 on: July 14, 2014, 02:48:33 am
Even so, it is highly recommended you buy a new chain and re-install the old one until you get it.

This is my plan, but the old chain is really dirty and gritty - it's been sitting in the garage in the "metal to be recycled" pile... glad I saved it!  If I really put the WD to it and get all the gunk out, will it dry so that a simple spray lube will coat everything that needs it?


Arizoni

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Reply #28 on: July 14, 2014, 02:58:15 am
WD40 + toothbrush (not your wife's) + old rag should get off the old dirt.  If you have them, some rubber gloves will keep your hands nice too. :)

You probably won't be able to get all of the WD40 out of the links and rollers and by itself, WD40 is a poor lubricant.
Applying some chain lube (like PJ1 Blue or Black) will protect the chain for a while but the remaining WD40 will keep it from entering the rollers bearing area.
Ride it for a week or two and then reapply the dedicated chain lube.

(Yes, motor oil or gear oil will work and it's better than WD40 but it will get thrown all over the back of the motorcycle too so I don't recommend it.)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


mattsz

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Reply #29 on: July 14, 2014, 11:01:40 am
I'll get a tub of WD-40 today - all I've got is a little left in a spray can.  Since the chain is off the bike, I'll give it a bath and scrub, and dry it off.  I could add a blast with the air compressor to help, too.

I started with one of the PJ1's (blue or black, can't recall as I type); it flung everywhere, and attracted dirt like crazy, hence my dirty OEM chain.  So when I switched chains, I switched to chain wax; stuff still gets flung everywhere, even though the wax seemed to dry.  As I wondered earlier, could it have been the captured grease working its way out of a bad chain?  Seemed like a lot, though.

I guess I apply too much lube.  If you PJ1 guys manage to use it effectively without fling, then I guess I should just try to apply less of it until I get no, or only a little, fling...