[mattsz]

Ok, guys, I'm trying to get edumacated here - in a discussion about my UCE's random pinging problem, I've been told to make sure I'm not lugging the engine.

So, in regards to this, what exactly is lugging?  Is it simply trying to power the bike with engine rpms too low?  If so, what rpm are we talking about for my engine?  Is it that simple?

Or, can one lug the engine at any rpm?  For example, if I'm in high gear and spinning at 4000 rpms, but giving it more and more throttle and it won't accelerate, is this lugging?

I'd like to speak the same language as everyone here trying to help me...

[High On Octane]

Lugging the motor is when you are riding in too high of a gear at too low of an RPM.  To best describe it, it is when you are riding along and encounter a hill.  As you ascend up the hill and you are losing speed regardless of how much throttle you give it, this is lugging.  A jerking chugging feeling from the motor and/or pinging is generally associated with this.  As a general rule, if you are putting the motor under load do not let the RPM drop below 3000.  This is what we mean by don't lug the motor.     

Scottie J

[krimp]

mattsz, because the REs don't have a tach, it can be difficult to know when to shift. As I have recently figured out, when I think the engine is revving high enough and I think I should shift, what I really need to do is gain a little bit more speed before I shift. This quote shows a good shift speed vs. RPM. I've highlighted the shift speeds you should be using to prevent lugging.

I made this chart for mine. It is valid for E5, B5, G5 with stock front sprocket (17T) and stock rear wheel (Avon Roadrider AM26 100/90-19").
For a given RPM speed in mph for each gear:

RPM/gear I     II        III       IV        V
1050    5.54    8.43  11.14  14.00  16.96  idle default
2625   13.84  21.06  27.86  34.98  42.40  50% maxpower
3000   15.82  24.08  31.84  39.99  48.46  75% maxtorque
4000   21.09  32.10  42.45  53.31  64.61  100% maxtorque
4200   22.15  33.70  44.57  55.98  67.84  80% maxpower
5250   27.69  42.13  55.72  69.97  84.80  100% maxpower
6000   31.64  48.15  63.68  79.97  96.92  114% maxpower

6000 rpm (114% maxpower) is pure theoretical. Rev-limiter will kick in at 5500 rpm.

[ace.cafe]

As a broad generalization, it is very common for RE owners to lug the engine.
There seems to be a pervasive impression that running at low rpms is somehow conducive to better engine life or something, which is not really true, and sometimes it is destructive if it is lugging.
Lack of a tachometer also exacerbates the situation, since many people have no ability to determine approximate rpms by the sound of the engine.

I agree with Scottie J. that it is best practice to keep the rpms over 3000 rpm to avoid lugging. There are 5 speeds in that gearbox, and it is wise to use them. One of the worst habits possible is getting it up into 5th gear and staying there, regardless of speed changes or conditions. Don't be afraid to drop down a gear when necessary. That's what the gears are there for.

[Arizoni]

krimp:
So your suggesting that the transmission shouldn't be shifted until a speed of 4200 rpm is reached?

I'm afraid I can't agree.  Using this as a guide I would never get out of 3rd gear on most city streets around here.

Lugging is the result of trying to accelerate rapidly with the transmission in too high of a gear.
It is dependent on speed, gear ratios and throttle position so no one answer applies to all situations.
As an example, a person can cruise along at 30 mph in 4th gear without lugging if he isn't trying to accelerate.  Many times I will be riding at 40 mph in 5th gear without lugging the engine if I'm just keeping up with the traffic around me.  Even then, if I just want to slowly pick up a little speed, there is no reason to downshift.

Now, riding in this situation (5th gear) and then wanting to accelerate rapidly does require downshifting but that seldom happens here.

Actually, the 2625 to 3000 rpm line is a lot closer to what I use when I'm just riding easy.  I'm not racing anyone so I don't see any need to use lower gears to accelerate faster.  Might I add that my engine never sounds like I'm lugging it while I'm riding (and I do know what a lugging engine sounds like).

Based on this I would say to Mattsz,  if you use the speeds and shift points for the 2625 shift points without using over 50-60 percent of the throttle you will never have to worry about lugging.

If you are using 75-80 percent of the throttle to accelerate, use the 3000 rpm shift points.

If you are using 100 percent of the throttle to accelerate use the 4000 to 5250 rpm shift points.

[singhg5]

Why does lugging make the characteristic 'lugging sound' it makes ? 

[decker]

Define lugging? In very basic terms an internal combustion engine fires prior to top dead center on the compression stroke. The inertia of the crankshaft and pistons normally overcome this if revved properly. If the engine is under revved, the piston and connecting rod are driven against the crank journal, that puts undue pressure on the crank and rod bearings, and can also squeeze the film of oil covering said bearings. That can create metal on metal contact and the noise that you hear when the engine "lugs".

[krimp]

Arizoni, in your situation, you can probably get away with running in a higher gear without lugging. Where I live, in Colorado, that just isn't possible. If I'm not going up a hill, I'm going down a hill. Just my trip to work brings me a 250ft plus drop in altitude. And that's in the city. With a few exceptions, I think almost everyone can use the chart posted by Royalista and if you stick to the higher shift points, you will ensure that you almost never lug.

I didn't think about it at the time, but I could have put in a note stating to use the shift speed that best matches the conditions you ride in. For hilly areas, use a higher shift speed. For flatter areas, use a lower shift speed unless you begin lugging.

[REpozer]

Lugging= engine load high, rpm low.

[retrolynn]

This is an excellent topic! When riding over the pass,about 2miles, after the first 100 miles should i run in 2nd gear,at about 30mph? Thanks,Lynn.

[Arizoni]

That depends on how steep the road over the pass is.
I know it's hard to explain in writing over the internet but if the engine sounds like it's just purring along happily, it isn't lugging.   It can even sound like its working a bit and still be happy.

If it sounds like it's straining hard to do its job, it's lugging.

[mattsz]

I had a feeling that this might be an interesting thread - and I had a feeling that it wouldn't be a simple, cut-and-dried answer.

By the way... based on this discussion, I pushed my bike a little harder on the way home from work tonight.  Running up a gentle grade, I worked my way to third gear and gently accelerated to 5000 rpms, which I've never gotten anywhere near before.      I didn't leave it there long: the engine vibrated so much, I wasn't sure I could keep my feet on the pegs.

It sounds like retrolynn is working on breaking in his new engine - perhaps for the benefit of the newbies here, we could refine the "spin it, don't lug it" break-in advice to suggest some rpm readings.

I see now that during my break-in, I favored the low end of the rev range.  I don't know if that affected my engine's current high-rev performance, but the vibrations approaching 5000 rpms, even after almost 6000 miles, are quite shocking.

[wildbill]

for example driving a car 20 mph in 5th gear.....now that would be what i'd call lugging. as soon as you plant your foot jump, jump sputter ...stall!
much the same on a bike - you should know does this gear feel right to me? if not up or down change will cure the problem

[mattsz]

for example driving a car 20 mph in 5th gear.....now that would be what i'd call lugging. as soon as you plant your foot jump, jump sputter ...stall!
much the same on a bike - you should know does this gear feel right to me? if not up or down change will cure the problem

Wildbill - a rhetorical question: why should I know this?  I have absolutely no low-power, big single motorcycle experience, and I don't know anyone around me who does.  I don't think car-to-Enfield is an easy comparison.  We don't generally drive our cars around pushing the rev limiter just to maintain highway speeds (I know, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my drift).

I'm sure that any of us would recognize a problem if we were doing 20 mph in 5th gear.  But I'm talking about 60 mph in 5th gear - where it's been suggested that I'm lugging the engine.  If I try to keep a steady 60 mph ascending a gentle hill in my Honda Civic, and 5th gear isn't cutting it, I can shift to 4th gear and carry on without feeling like my car is going to shake itself apart.  Not so my Enfield.  Now, maybe - and dare I say, likely - my Enfield isn't going to shake itself apart, but it seems that way, and I've got no other experience to go on.  Hence my inquiry about how low is too low - seeing as my impression of too high is apparently incorrect!

I hope this doesn't sound bitchy - it's not meant to... I welcome any and all input! 

[wildbill]

maybe it's just something you get used too the more your around cars and bikes. i know a loose chain slapping about can also give you the same feeling.
no harm intended as i too have had my drama with these bikes. look at it this way - i'm about to have another hit at one now - that will be 5 it total.
if i was new to the forum and read a few of the new threads and problems mentioned - a smart person would back out of the idea of a purchase pretty quick. unfortunately i can't help myself.
tell you what though. you could buy one of those cheap $20 rev counters and fit it to your bike. I did that to one of my previous model C5's but unfortunately - couldn't bloody see the numbers LOL
Like i said no harm intended and like all us old bustardos - once we hit the 60 plus mark we think we know everything or most answers LOL

[ace.cafe]

You can downshift to 4th at 60mph to take a hill on the Enfield if you need to. That is probably not likely to occur, but it might happen on a really steep hill. In top gear at 55-60mph, you are right at the torque peak of the engine, which is a perfect place to ride, from the view of the engine performance.
If you listen to the engine and how it sounds at that speed in top gear, that is exactly how you want the engine to sound all the time, regardless of what gear you are in.


You would be 1000% better off to "shake the Enfield apart", than lug it.
It will not really shake apart, that is just your impression.
This is likely why you have reported hearing pinging in your engine. If you are hearing pinging under load, you are riding at too low rpms for the gear you are in.
You can get out of pinging in these cases by downshifting and getting the engine up into a higher rpm. However, if you don't downshift, the only other way to get out of pinging is to back off the throttle.
Pinging and lugging often come together.

If you want to ride at lower rpms, then do so ONLY of flat ground, and downshift if you need to accelerate to a faster speed, or if you need to deal with a load such as a hill.

[ROVERMAN]

Good advice ACE, i can and do, ride in 5th at and indicated 35mph without an issue. But as you said this is on flat ground and i am not asking the engine to do any work, it is basically idling along. As soon as any acceleration is needed there is a swift downshift. As someone else mentioned cars are more suited to this,my Suzuki Sx4 (manual) will run happily at 1,200 Rpm all day long without a load and will still pull easily because of 4 cylinders with oversquare dimensions, very torquey little motor that. . My advice for lugging is, if it doesn't feel happy it isn't happy,downshift already.
Roverman.

[Bullet Whisperer]

If you want to 'lug', get some Red Power and buy an International Harvester  No longer with us, though, sadly.
 B.W.

[singhg5]

From dyno test on my G5, it seems that RE has fairly steady torque at 3000 to 3500 rpm, with a very slight increasing slope to it. Perhaps the maximum torque was around 3500 rpm. 

Torque starts to falls gradually and then more rapidly as rpms are raised further. Torque is a little less than max at 4000 rpm and significantly less at 4500 rpm.

As ACE pointed out, in my actual tests with tachometer on G5 in the top gear max torque is at 60 mph.

NB - These values are with 1 tooth larger front sprocket in my G5.

[barenekd]

If the engine won't maintain 60 mph in fifth gear then it's time to gear down. Any time the engine won't maintain speed in any gear, it's time to gear down. If it will maintain a speed at full throttle, your aren't lugging it. If the speed starts to drop, gear down.
If you're puttering along at 25 mph in fifth gear and you grab a big handful of throttle and the engine is pinging, you're lugging the engine. Throttle position is the harder part to explain in the lugging condition, because you can easily putter along at low engine speed and an essentially closed throttle and not be lugging the engine. However when you open the throttle that increases the air flow into the cylinder and increases the cylinder pressure. At higher RPM this is not a issue because the piston speed is high enough to to get past the point the ignition occurs, but at low engine speed the extra pressure causes pinging and heavy loads on the engine because the timing will advance as the throttle opens and then the piston isn't rising fast enough to got over the advanced combustion and the combustion is trying to push the piston back down when it need to still be coming up. So, if you are running at 25 mph in fifth gear you need to shift down a couple of gears so the engine is revving high enough to get over top dead center when the mixture fires.
Bare

[mattsz]

You can downshift to 4th at 60mph to take a hill on the Enfield if you need to. That is probably not likely to occur, but it might happen on a really steep hill. In top gear at 55-60mph, you are right at the torque peak of the engine, which is a perfect place to ride, from the view of the engine performance.
If you listen to the engine and how it sounds at that speed in top gear, that is exactly how you want the engine to sound all the time, regardless of what gear you are in.

It does happen - on a road I consider to be a gentle slope.  The only way to maintain 60 mph in 5th gear is to lay down on the tank, which allows me to ease up on the throttle just enough so that it won't ping along that stretch.

Keep in mind, too, Ace, that I have re-geared the final drive (up from 17T to 18T) to accommodate a wider o-ring chain, so this is contributing to the mix.

You would be 1000% better off to "shake the Enfield apart", than lug it.
It will not really shake apart, that is just your impression.

You are probably correct - just my impression.  But it's not an enjoyable ride...

This is likely why you have reported hearing pinging in your engine. If you are hearing pinging under load, you are riding at too low rpms for the gear you are in.
You can get out of pinging in these cases by downshifting and getting the engine up into a higher rpm. However, if you don't downshift, the only other way to get out of pinging is to back off the throttle.

Hence my reducing the pinging on the gentle hill by reducing my wind resistance, allowing me to back off the throttle.

Just so y'all know, I'm not riding with the bike pinging all the time - I have known all along I can stop it by reducing the throttle and/or shifting down to raise the rpms.  And since I don't generally ride anywhere in a hurry, it's been fine.  Obviously I have to re-think, again, my concept of how to run this engine...

[ace.cafe]

Definitely yes, that taller gearing up to the 18 tooth sprocket is exacerbating the issue. That will absolutely weaken the torque output that drives the wheel.

I would say this.
If your engine is vibrating so intensely that you can't ride the bike at the higher speeds(or even 60mph) without it being so intolerable that you feel that you must avoid it by lugging and pinging, then I would take it to the dealer for a warranty claim on a new engine before the warranty expires.
There is absolutely zero reason for that engine to have anything more than a barely noticeable vibration at ANY rpm that is within the operating range.
I can tell you for certain that there is NO technical reason that this engine should vibrate any more than any other normal engine without counterbalancers. If it does, it is faulty, and requires replacement. Pure and simple. That kind of vibration is NOT "inherent" in a single, or in this design of engine. Don't let anybody tell you that it is.

[High On Octane]

I completely agree Ace with the vibrations.  If you have that many miles on the motor and it is vibrating that bad something is definitely wrong.  There should be no reason that you feel like you are about to vibrate off of the bike under COMPLETELY normal riding conditions.  If you are certain that your head steady is completely tight and there are no other loose motor mounts, then something is wrong internally.  If this has always been the case since you bought the bike, it is possible that your motor has a crankshaft that was not properly balanced at the factory.  I honestly can't say if that is the case or not but that's what it sounds like to me.     

As Ace just said, take it to the dealer and explain to them what you are experiencing and make sure they take it for a test drive at HIGHWAY SPEEDS and have them recreate what is going on.  Don't leave that place with them saying "Oh, that's normal." because it is not.  I can run my old twin to 6000 RPMs and it doesn't vibrate that bad.

Scottie J

[Blairio]

I fitted a cheap 'n cheerful TTO tacho to my Electra, to help understand what e.g. 2000rpm, 3000rpm or 4000rpm sounds like. The tacho is intended for outboard motors and other utility engines.  It has a second or so lag so doesn't track the engine rpm in real time, but is responsive enough for its intended purpose. Good for setting tickover / idle too.



The tacho also records the number of hours the engine has been running, which is how marine engine service schedules are calculated.  So the figure to 87.5 in the photo is not the world's lowest Enfield engine tickover reading! The unit is self powered, and the only wiring is the single wire you wrap round the HT lead to pick up the ignition pulses.

[DanB]

I have the same tach.  Works great and tells me what I'm doing. Very easy install.

[barenekd]

 I never could understand why cars and motorcycles use mileage instead of hours. Hours makes a lot more since, since it keeps all operators on an level playing field.
If you have a thousand hours on something, you know it's a thousand hours. Your mileage may very,...tremendously.
It's just wrong!
Bare

[Portland Bullet]

As I have recently figured out, when I think the engine is revving high enough and I think I should shift, what I really need to do is gain a little bit more speed before I shift.

A rule to live by. Easy to remember, and a good guide, imho, for when to shift on an RE. You'll avoid lugging, flooding, etc.

[suitcasejefferson]

Lugging is the worst thing you can do to an engine. It will literally pound the bearings to pieces in short order. It would be nice if the Enfield had a tach. Having ridden mostly Japanese bikes with short stroke engines, it took a little while to get used to the Enfields long stroke. But after I got a feel for it it was easy to keep it spinning in the powerband. If it feels like the engine is lugging, pull in the clutch, rev the engine a little a couple of times, downshift one gear, and open the throttle. Once an engine is lugging, the first thing to do is pull in the clutch. Don't slow down or speed up, as that puts even more stress on the engine. Downshift and get the engine rpms up.

[mattsz]

I would say this.
If your engine is vibrating so intensely that you can't ride the bike at the higher speeds(or even 60mph) without it being so intolerable that you feel that you must avoid it by lugging and pinging, then I would take it to the dealer for a warranty claim on a new engine before the warranty expires.
There is absolutely zero reason for that engine to have anything more than a barely noticeable vibration at ANY rpm that is within the operating range.
I can tell you for certain that there is NO technical reason that this engine should vibrate any more than any other normal engine without counterbalancers. If it does, it is faulty, and requires replacement. Pure and simple. That kind of vibration is NOT "inherent" in a single, or in this design of engine. Don't let anybody tell you that it is.

Ace - That's a strong statement!

Again, my problem may be perception.  But I rode it home from work again today, and worked my way from a stop up a hill, reaching 3rd gear and accelerating through about 4500 rpms or a little more.  And it's not "barely noticeable".  I can only keep it there for a few seconds - the vibes are just too uncomfortable.  If I had to run it there as a matter of course, I'd park it and walk instead.    My bike has 5600 miles, BTW.  The engine mounts are tight.

A dealer mechanic fixed my clattery decomp, and test-rode it a few miles, but I don't know if he had the engine spinning.  He's the only other person who has ridden my bike.  Same old problem - I haven't ridden any other broken-in UCE's, and nobody around here has any experience with them.  I guess I have to try to get with some of my New England brethren and compare notes.

I know we've touched on this concept already, ACE, but I'll put it out there again: is it possible the engine has broken in so it's smooth and comfy below 3500 rpm, but because I've only just now run it up to 4000 and above, it's still rough there and could smooth out?

Also, I do have one of those digital tachs that gets its signal from the spark plug wire - that's how I know my rpm readings.  It has a bit of a refresh delay, but it puts me in the ballpark...

[ace.cafe]

There is something to the idea that if you haven't run the bike at higher rpms much, that it really isn't broken-in up in that range.
But I have trouble believing that it would be such a large difference from the rest of the rpm range, unless there was some balancing issue.

So, if I were you, I would seek out someone with another UCE that you could get an opinion from about the vibration level in your bike.
There are differences in factory bikes which could influence vibration levels, and so it might be a good idea to do this.
Even if it is a different dealer than the one you bought the bike at. Somebody with some UCE riding experience should get on your bike and tell you what he thinks about vibrations at those rpms/speeds.
It just doesn't seem right to me.
Bikes aren't really supposed to be comfortable, but they shouldn't be so unbearable that you can't ride them in the normal operating range.

[barenekd]

Checking out another RE is a good idea. But vibration is a very personal thing. Some people can't handle it. You could be one of those people who are very sensitive to it. I have ridden some motorcycles that I could only hang on to for a couple of miles then couldn't ride it any farther. They weren't Enfields, I thought mine was quite comfortable, but I do know how it can affect some people. The bikes were 360 Maicos and a 250 MZ Six Days. Other people rode them quite successfully and didn't complain about the vibes, but I couldn't.
Bare