[donkey]

That's the question...
'Cause Enfields have independent oils for engine, clutch and gear box, Can we use car oil in engine without any risk? There's no risk for clutch slipagge in engine carter  and the anti friction additives of car oils maybe benefits our engines...
Isn't it?

[erob123]

Any info I can get on recommended oil would be good.  I pickup my new 08 Military next weekend.  I will be riding HOT! Houston Texas.   Its the last of the iron heads.  Thanks, Eric

[Vince]

     Modern car oils are made for modern cars with very tight tolerances and very high oil pressure. At best car oils are barely adequate in a bike like the Enfield.   Use a motorcycle specific 20W50.  Search my previous posts for more details.

[Vince]

     See 4-12, 3-3,1-19 ,08 and 11-27-o7

[StL_Stadtroller]

Hooray an oil thread!

For what the iron engine RE's were designed to run on, I would bet money that the cheapest, nastiest, bottom-barrel bargian oil you can find at your FLAPS is about 1-billion-times superior than what it would have had in it "in the day".

I just grab whatever 20-50ish weight oil is on sale. 16,xxx-odd miles on my '01, rolling up on 2,xxx on the new '07.
No lubrications issues, ever.

[Vince]

     Brian, you are right as far as you go. Modern oils are certainly better than ever. Does this mean you should settle for the minimum available today? I'm not saying to get the most expensive racing oil you can find. The motorcycle specific oils I recommend simply do a better job than can believe. You can double your engine life by   up grading  your oil.

[Blue Ridge Wheeltor]

Just to offer a different perspective, this has been debated ad infinitum on the Ural boards. The Ural is similarly old tech, and the factory suggests regular Castrol GTX 20-50. The maintenance CD's show Chevron 20W-50 being used.
The consensus is that because of the frequent oil changes (2500 km, 1500 mile OCI) a good quality auto dino oil is fine.

Now, if we want a good debate, let's chat about K&N air filters.

[t120rbullet]

Now, if we want a good debate, let's chat about K&N air filters.

Is it OK to use synthetic automotive oil on your K&N?
I was under the understanding that being slippery the dirt would just slip right by the filter.
 

[mikail gransee]

20w 50 is recommended for my '95 in the manual. Always buy mineral type not synthetic because I once heard that the synthetic will hold the heat and on an air cooled bike that is not a wise thing. Motorcycle oil is not really required since the clutch is separate. Do use ATF for the Primary Case though and have never had any trouble of slipage after 8K.

[donkey]

i'm talking about to use a 20W50-API SG-JASO MB (MA is the recomended oil for motorcycles with wet clutch for no slipagge) in engien carter.

[LJRead]

Now, if we want a good debate, let's chat about K&N air filters.

Would very much like to hear what you have to say, Ridge Wheeltor, as I just ordered one for mine.  I have a Dell'Orto carb which was standard issue for a Machismo A350 (2002) and it was running with black smoke at idle, no matter what I'd do.  So finally I remove the OEM air filter and now it is in a range where I can at least fine tune (very rich running carb).  Can you comment here or would you be more comfortable starting a separate thread?  I will run without an air filter until the new K & N arrives - air not too bad here now that most main roads are sealed.

With regard to motorcycle oil, I'm using BP 20-50 and it seems fine.  Double life of engine, Vince? I would if I could get what I knew to be a better oil, but this is what we have here and what I am forced to use.  My oil goes by the moniker "something 3000".  There is also a 2000 sold here, which says it is also good for motorcycles, but I sort of think they are very similar, the 2000 and 3000, and the 2000 is only sold by one store at about 15% more cost.  As it is, I pay about $6 U.S. per litre.

[Blue Ridge Wheeltor]

LJ,
The K&N discussion elicits some of the passionate debate similar to the dino vs. synthetic debate.
One can argue the worth of having a permanent filter, needing oiling (time involved) vs the ease of a throwaway paper element, or the problems encountered when over oiling, but that is aside from the main debate.
The main reason many give for the K&N is that it "gives more power". It does this by allowing more air in (and subsequently you re jet to prevent a lean condition). Now think about that. It lets more air in because it filters less. The holes are bigger and if you hold a K&N up to the light, you can see right through many of them. This allows more dirt in. Test have been done where the silicate matter in the oil increases considerably using a K&N. Many on car forums complain about map sensors failing because of the dust let in.
One of the best forums for all questions regarding oil is www.bobistheoilguy.com
These guys are oil nuts and actually test their oil by sending off samples to labs. They have a motorcycle section and an air cleaner section. Do a search on there for K&N and you will find some interesting discussions. To me, the price of a K&N, plus the maintenance does not win out over a disposeable filter. Then add in the possibility of it not filtering sufficiently, and I don't see the disadvantages outweighing the supposed small increase in power. Just my opinion, others may vary.

[LJRead]

Thanks for the post, Ridge.  Funny thing is that last night I ordered a K & N on Amazon, then just moments ago it was canceled by the vendor, no reason given, though they may have seen I was overseas and not wanted to deal with me. I have things shipped to my wife there, but pay for it from here.  S--- happens.

I had read about seeing light through the filter, but assumed that maybe small vortices of whirling air might be internally set up that would fling the particles onto the oil in the filter, but your info on actual tests done on the oil itself seems pretty conclusive to me.  It isn't silicates I would worry here about but the very fine dust that running over coral can raise.  And I can't use the OEM filter (of which I have four) because it restricts my carb to the point that it definitely isn't getting enough air., and I found I can't compensate without maybe ordering in smaller jets.

So what to do?

Damn thing is that when I ordered the air filter i also ordered a kit to renew the filter and they came from two different places, and the kit has already been sent.   I'll only be out maybe $15 with the shipping, but it isn't good.

Think I'll do a little more digging and see what I can come up with.

Any other air filtering suggestions you've read about?  The air is generally clean here, so maybe just run without.  We should be back in the old biking days when they never worried about filtering the air!

Anyway, many thanks,

LJ

[Blue Ridge Wheeltor]

The newer Urals come with a JR (or is it J&R?) filter that is a permanant filter, gauze, and supposedly goes almost a lifetime without oiling. They are French, and have a good reputation, not as porous as the K&N. Read their website and maybe pick one of them up and still use the K&N treatment kit you have. I have one in my Ural, and while I blow it off with compressed air, have yet to service it. Should be readily available in Europe.

[oldsalt]

I'm with Vince.  For sure don't use oil for a liquid cooled engine in an air cooled engine when the motorcycle spec. stuff is available.  Absolutely nothing less than 50 weight.  In my youth I had a Gold Star that was used for brush bashing.  Used 60 weight.  If my Bullet was going to be rode hard in the summer heat I'd again be thinking about 60 weight.     

[baird4444]

as for the oils...  my memory says that you need the SJ  additive for anti wear.
(zinc added)  I know that the honda brand has it as well as castrol 20/50 in the white bottle with the red cap.

Larry- I think our brothers across the pond use a SB brand air filter. I think it has a foam wrap that gets oiled.
               - Mike

[LJRead]

Thanks Mike - yeah - S & B are sold in the U.S. too and actually by CMW.  Actually, In thinking about this, I should think it might be possible to sandwich some cotton between some bronze screen (of which I have some scraps) and rig something up which might even take up less room in the side box..  It could be tested by keeping and eye on carb tuning to get a feel for how well it was filtering air - too lean- too much cotton - too rich, maybe not enough,

I sometimes wrap an old cotton t-shirt around my nose and mouth when sanding epoxy, bandit style, and very little dust seems to get through and that is very fine dust and I breath very well (scientific testing hey?)

You wouldn't want to trade you stock carb for my Dell'orto would you Mike?

[baird4444]

now that you mention it; I may be changing carbs in a matter of months...
if I do you will get first option on it. Your 350 carb 26mm i think, has mounting flanges
while mine, 28mm mounts using the rubber manifold to a flange mounted as the
intake. I guess the question is will my 500 flange mount to your 350 barrel?
            - Mike

[donkey]

The API must be SG or lower. The JASO, for wet clutch, must be MA to prevent slipagge. 'Cause engine carter  is separated from clutch we could use JASO MB (dry clutch or no cluth like Enfield case) without problems. Teorically. So, only for engine:
20W50 API SG JASO MA = 20W50 API SG JASO MB

[LJRead]

Well, Mike, I like the Dell'Orto, but it is running too rich with the standard OEM filter.  This is good because It means I can open it up (more porous air filter) without having to rejet.  The lady (or man?) who refused my K & N order may have done me a favor because now I've learned that maybe something else might be better.  I have a four inch scrap of PVC pipe and can devise a plywood lid, and put gauze between some scraps I have of bronze wire window screen.  I have old T-shirts, actual first aid gauze, some green felt, even some foam, so it is just a matter of figuring what  will work the best through experimentation.  It is said you can see air spaces through the K & N and it is just made of cotton fibers, so I think I can do just as well with cotton items that can easily be replaced or washed out, air can pass through, and will trap the dust.  We'll see - I'll get to it this weekend.

[Rockdodger]

I'm with grease monkey on using motorcycle oil in an Enfield. There has been a lot of discussion on classic car sites about the reduction of zinc and other wear-reducing compounds in modern motor oil. The new oils are leading to a lot of camshaft failures in older pushrod engines. Some tuners are recommending morcycle oil for their classic Fords, Chevies and Mopars.

[frankdog]

For the discussion, I am referring ONLY to engine crankcase oil in this tossing in of my two.

I have done a bit of personal testing into this "little" matter of oil and I have come to the conclusion that modern motor automotive oils are terrific motorcycle oils as well as terrific marine oils. IMHO, the debate shouldn't really be about car oil vs. motorcycle oil. There has been plenty of debate about the issue, and the general consensus is that the makers of motorcycle oils have made some pretty amazing claims to "prove" that bikes require special oils because of their increased shear forces, fluctuating temps and so on. This has not been proven to me in my own tests, and I encourage anyone who is really curious to perform their own tests. I am happy to provide instructions on how to go about this. My tests have shown that there is not a substantial viscosity advantage in motorcycles oils over automotive oils. Yes, it is true that certain brands of automotive oils have additives to address specific concerns in today's higher compression vehicles, and that there is a concern that those additives break down "old technology" engine components, but you'll also notice that those additives are usually only put into oils that are designed for use in those vehicles, such as 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils.

No, the debate should be whether Castrol will protect as good Red Line will protect as good as Valvoline will protect as good as Amsoil will protect as good as...you get it. It has already been shown that even a moderate to decent quality automotive oil will protect your bike's beating heart just as well as an overpriced motorcycle "specialty" oil. That means that if you're paying $2.49/qt for your oil, it's probably not doing as good a job as one costing just a little more. There's a reason it's $2.49/qt.

If you really want to geek hard on oil, I have found that using a good quality 50W (such as Aeroshell 100), which can be obtained quite easily at any airport service shop, is the way to go. The other option is to go with Aeroshell Plus, which has the Lycoming LW-16702 additive that specifically addresses the camshaft lobe galling issues that were brought up by Rockdodger. Consider this: airplanes' engines are required to be maintained at fairly strict tolerances, and those tolerances cannot be cost-effectively maintained by using inferior oils. Oils designed for aircraft use are, by that requirement, usually of higher quality than what you might get from Manny, Moe and Jack (bless their hearts).  But, look at the names: Mobil 1 and Shell (Aeroshell)  and BP (Halvoline). This is the stuff of the big boys. The oil of men and their machines. Even though our Bullets are close to our hearts, there's nothing mechanically different happening in that crankcase than any other internal combustion engine (begin rants and flames now). So, either go to the Big Top and buy the best, or simply remember that your engine is an engine, and wants a good quality 20W-50 engine oil. Period. Remember, there are terrific bikes out there that have run tens of thousands of miles on what we now consider inferior oil. The best thing you can do for your engine is change that oil regularly, and keep it topped up.

Personally, I use Mobil 1 50W, which I get at my local airport by the case. It is an excellent product. If I cannot get that, then I use Amsoil 20W-50, and failing the locating of that, I'll use Castrol GTX 20W-50. Frankly, I really like the Amsoil, but the Mobil 1 seems to retain its viscosity through oil changes just as well and is less expensive. During colder months, I'll go down to 10W-40, the cold (aka winter, hence "W") viscosity is more important than the hot. I use this recipe in each of my three bikes, including my beloved Bullet 500.

I will not publicly divulge my secret formula for my trans case and clutch without adequate libations pre-delivered by a very cute single woman. 

happy motorin'!

[baird4444]

     Just a little more fuel for the fire......

http://www.xlrator.com/personal/oil/Oil%20and%20the%20Harley%20Davidson%20Motorcycle.pdf

[Blue Ridge Wheeltor]

FYI, on www.bobistheoilguy.com several members have had their oil analyzed by a lab. Any idea which oil has consistently come out on top (this is for dino oil)?












Havoline and it's twin, Chevron.

[PhilJ]

     Just a little more fuel for the fire......

Avery interesting read. I wish he'd gone a little deeper into the primary oils, or maybe I just didn't get it. I was trying to figure out if using ATF as I do, is good or bad. Interesting about the 50 weight crankcase oil in the gear box.

[baird4444]

I've used the ATF all along at the suggest of my dealer. I haven't heard of any miracle changes; I think it is just a preference. The best reason I can think of to use it would be it's easier to sort out the oil spots on the floor when they are differant colors!!
                  - Mike

[LJRead]

After reading the paper that Mike referred to, I think it is clear that just a decent grade of 20-50w is all that is required.  I have here two types of BP, one says Visco 2000 and one Visco 3000, the 2000 says it can be used for motorcycles, the 3000 doesn't mention them.  The 2000 is rated SF, the 3000 Sm.  So according to the article of Mike's, the 3000 at SM would include all the protection of the lower graded oils series, i.e., SF.  As long as one is using SF and above, it looks ok.  So Frankdog seems to give a good explanation - just use a good grade of 20-50 w and you'll be fine.  The SM grade and my bottle of the Visco 3000 which is SM and Mike's article,, both say that SM is particularly good for high heat situations.

Today I went back to my old OEM air filter.  Again Mike's article says to use a good air filter as that is where a lot of the wear comes in, particles or substances getting into the engine and crank case.  The K & M filters are less restrictive, so the must do a poorer job of filtering.  My bike seemed happy with the OEM filter, but I started to read all the fancy, performance stuff about the K & M - "open it up it will run better and cooler".  Well, I opened her up by discarding the air filter, then ran into all sorts of other effects like smoke coming back into the air box, backfiring, and still the problem of idle smoking.  Opening her up just seemed to add to my problems.  Probably could have been adjusted out, by rejeting , but why bother - says me. The bike is responsive enough with the OEM, runs very well, and I certainly have no need of performance.

While all this investigative reading is enjoyable, when put into operation it seems to contain surprises and costs money to boot.