[boggy]

Hey,
I've never had a chance to spend much time on dirt bikes.  Now I'm spending a lot of time on my DRZ which at it's core is a dirt bike, but mine is the supermoto version with street tires, brakes and suspension as well as a gearing change.  There are a ton of dirt roads that I cut through around here and I must admit I feel a bit like a deer on an ice pond when I'm riding on them.

I know these tires are not going to grip the dirt like dual-sport or moto-x tires would, but do you guys have some basic, dirt riding advice?  My gut tells me to lay off the front brake for fear of a front end wash out but I also slide like a mother if I'm solely on the rear pedal.  I'm not used to rear-wheel slide so my instincts aren't great.  The bike is a bit tall, and I don't feel like my foots doing much good anywhere except on the pegs.  These are just basic dirt roads.

I'll definitely get into some 705's or Disntanzias when I wear these suckers out, but for now I'm $tuck with them.  Scottie J, I know you like those Shinkos quite a bit.

Any advice?  Any ADV riders out there with road-bike experience on fire-roads?  Let me know.  Thanks.  Boggy

[High On Octane]

Dirt is a different ball game, and in a sense, you have to do everything backwards compared to on dirt.  The biggest thing to keep in mind, and to keep yourself upright, is body positioning in cornering.  On pavement when cornering, you want to keep your weight as close to the inside of the bike as possible, many times, leaning and shifting your body weight to the inside of the bike, this will cause you to slide out very quickly on dirt.  When riding on dirt, in the corners you want to keep your body weight on the TOP SIDE of the seat.  Meaning, if you are making a left turn, you want your ass on the top ride side of the saddle.  This keeps your body weight pushing DOWN on the rear wheel keeping traction.  You will also notice experienced guys sticking their inside leg out on sharp hard turns.  The key to this trick is to keep your inside foot as close to the front axle as possible.  This helps keep weight on the front wheel and helps prevent wash outs.  The last important key to riding dirt?  "When in doubt, throttle out."  If you are riding (usually at slower paces) turn or straight, if you feel your front wheel wanting to wash out, goose the throttle and push the front wheel forward again.  Hard to explain with words, but trust me, it works.   

Scottie J

[gizzo]

What Scottie said, + when you're sitting up on the high edge of the seat, put your weight on the outside footpeg. Helps to mash the back tyre into the ground and increase tyre grip.

[Vince]

     The front brake is for slowing down. The rear brake is mostly for controlling the suspension and rear wheel. Proper use in conjunction with the throttle can minimize wheel hop over whoops (repetitive bumps) or control front end height in jumps or wheelies.
     Throttle and brakes can be applied quickly, but they must also be applied progressively. That means no jerky or abrupt movements.
     There are some dirt bike courses offered by the MSF. I would take one. Don't wait until your tires wear out to replace them. Change them NOW and save them for when you sell the bike.
     In the mean time SLOW DOWN. What are you trying to prove? Dirt riding is fun! Tense and panicky is not fun. So slow down as you hone your skills. Watch some motocross or flat track.  Find a book and/or video to study. And find a riding buddy! Someone with more experience can help you through the learning curve and can help you when you fall. Riding in the dirt alone is insanely dangerous. A broken leg may mean no one will find you.
     I crashed about 10 yards off the course in a desert race. I was found only because someone else had a minor crash near enough to see my front wheel sticking up out of the hole I was in. One of my customers crashed in the woods. He was found three days later by a mushroom picker. Another day and he would have died. He spent 3 weeks in the hospital, mostly due to the delay in getting care.
     Dirt riding is a blast. I wouldn't trade my years of racing for anything. But as with any sport you have a serious learning curve. Do it smart and you will kick yourself for waiting so long to dirt ride.

[boggy]

"When in doubt, throttle out."  That, is a great motto... for many applications. 

Interesting about the weight distribution.  So, is standing better?  Or less critical on regular, dirt roads than it would be for say, single-track riding?

Vince, I'm travelling at such a slow rate that I'd be embarrassed if a car pulled up behind me.  "Tense and panicky" is exactly how I feel.  It's an odd feeling to go from being confident on pavement to feeling like it's my first time on two wheels when on the dirt.  The MSF course sounds like a good idea.  I think you are right about the tires too. 

OK cool - thanks guys.

[High On Octane]

I stand when on rough terrain, some people stand the whole time, I personally just remember to keep my body upright and my shoulders and elbows square.

Scottie J

[Vince]

     Standing up puts all your weight on the foot pegs. This effectively lowers your center of gravity, making the bike much more stable. Sitting puts your weight on the seat, making the bike more tippy.
     Generally you would stand for fast straight(ish) riding. Sit for corners, but slide forward to load the front wheel for better traction. Standing or sitting you would slide back to lighten the front end to go over bumps. Handling is better when bumps are mostly handled by the rear end.
     Using the brakes shortens front suspension travel as the act of braking causes the bike to dive. The diving front end twists out of your hand easier. Under power the front end lightens and the rear end rises. This gives you maximum suspension travel. Most bumps are more easily handled under power, not braking.
     Slow is relative. Go at your comfort speed. Let anyone in a hurry pass you. What do you care? Let them go. You have nothing to prove. How embarrassed  would you be if they had to pull you out of a ditch or call an ambulance for you?

[boggy]

Ok. Thanks and thanks, guys.

[barenekd]

K70s work quite well in the dirt. Do you still have the Skidmasters on your bike? They don't work well anywhere.
Bare

[boggy]

I have the K70's on my AVL, but it's still on the disabled list until I get some new clutch plates (and a California plate).  The day I put those K70s on back East, I did some dirt roads in horse-country and the Bullet felt really good and sturdy.  It was part of the reason why I switched form clubman bars to a moto-x set-up.  I wanted to do some scrambln'. 

Thought it was going to be a great way to explore out here... That is until I caught a case of supermoto-fever.  On the DRZ are the stock, Dunlop 208SM tires and they aren't very good off, or even on road.

[High On Octane]

I love the 705s!  I have not one single bad thing to say about them other they are a little slick in actual mud, clay mud anyways.  I believe they are labeled as a supermoto tire to be honest with you.  The same tires are on my foster bike, the '01 BMW F650GS, and I've had that bike over the Ton a few different times and they always felt very stable.  If I remember correctly they are rated up to 118mph.  You can get a full set with tubes and rim strips for about $150.  You can't beat them for how much performance they pack into such an affordable price.

Scottie J

[olhogrider]

Boggy, where is that? I like dirt roads and I'm kind of new to SoCal.

[boggy]

Looking at the map... I think it's Pankey Rd?  It's actually a road that leads to an RC air-field.  I'm basically exploring any dirt I see - some roads pan out some don't.  This is just the driveway for the air-field, but I wanted a pic there.

Bare has tipped me to some primo riding spots around Temecula/Fallbrook/Rainbow/Pala.  Killer, killer roads.  De Luz Cayon is simply amazing.  There's some dirt to be had there.  I've been up and down it a few times and it's a dream.  A bunch of stuff near the 76 + 15.  W.Lilac, Couser Canyon, Rice Canyon.

I'm in North County, near the coast so I just head into Fallbrook and the fun begins. 

[olhogrider]

Aha! I am in San Pedro. I've been up in the Rohr Flats area between Santa Clarita and Mojave with my Yamaha but the dirt roads are nothing the RE can't handle.

[barenekd]

You guys need to go over to Palomar and ride up the Nate Harrison Grade. It's the west road that goes up to Palomar. It's fairly steep, tight and kinda rough. Perfect for dirt bikes! It's not terrible, I made it on my Goose. I ran off the road into a little ditch and had to use the "When in doubt, throttle out" technique. I kinda pointed the bike at a little gap and nailed the throttle. It blasted right out of there! It is good advice, been using it for years, but never heard it called that.
Bare

[cyrusb]

I don't know your age, but if you are just beginning, you should get a small beater and make all your mistakes on that.

[Philatawgrapher]

My first bike was a KLR 650. Probably ill-advisedly, I rode it for 500 miles, did the first service, then promptly rode another 300 miles out to State College where I met up with 30 other KLR riders who spent a couple of days carving up the state forest trails. I fell a half dozen times, squished an ankle on a river crossing, and learned more about riding dirt trails than I could have on my own in five years.

The biggest lessons I learned were: 1) low tire pressure; 2) stand on the pegs; 3) second gear is your friend because it's fast enough to stay up, but slow enough to let you avoid something bad; 4) a dirt helmet is far better than an Arai street helmet; 5) you can manage a hell of a lot more than you're likely to give yourself credit for.

The classic book is Riding the Dirt, which has some great tips. It's not in print anymore, but can be found. (http://amzn.to/UumhrB)

Have fun!

[boggy]

You guys need to go over to Palomar and ride up the Nate Harrison Grade.

Yeah, I haven't had a chance to ride up Palomar Mountain either, but everyone who talks to me about bikes here in North County mentions it.  From what I hear about how many riders go there, I imagine there has to be cops from top to bottom?  DeLuz, on the other hand, is a ghost town.

I don't know your age, but if you are just beginning, you should get a small beater and make all your mistakes on that.

Young enough to still try stupid things and old enough where it takes way too long to heal.  I'm with you though... I really want a TW200 as a "guest" bike.  You know... for, um, guests.

... dirt helmet is far better than an Arai street helmet.

The classic book is Riding the Dirt, which has some great tips. It's not in print anymore, but can be found. (http://amzn.to/UumhrB)

I've heard of that book... Saw it was out of print.  Seems like a shame.  Has to be a .pdf floating around somewhere.  Why do you mention the helmet?  Just the right gear for the right circumstance?  More visibility in a dirt lid?  Goggles option better?  I'll take any reason you can give me to shop for a new lid. 

[High On Octane]

Why do you mention the helmet?  Just the right gear for the right circumstance?  More visibility in a dirt lid?  Goggles option better?  I'll take any reason you can give me to shop for a new lid. 

I've ridden with several types of different helmets in the dirt, but I think what Philatawgrapher is trying to say is that a dirt helmet is little less intrusive than a full face street helmet.  Tho, these days they now make hybrid full face "dual sport" helmets that are the best of both worlds.  Full face protection with the style, comfort and weight of a dirt helmet.  Very popular in the adventure rider scene.  I've been torn between one of these or a vintage style 3/4 helmet.

http://www.bikebandit.com/shoei-hornet-ds-dual-sport-motorcycle-helmet

Scottie J

[cyrusb]

+1 Octane, also the dirt specific helmets have the extended visor that is very handy keeping branches out of your face. Just quick nod does it.

[Philatawgrapher]

Why do you mention the helmet? 

I didn't have an off road gear when I went, so I rode with what I had. Riding the dirt is filthy, hot, sweaty work. Companions kick up all kinds of muck, mud, and debris, and nearly all of it goes in your face at some point. If you have a street shield down, you can't breathe. If you have it up, you can't see. Either way, it's going to be soaked in sweat and dust and the last thing you want to put in your dishwasher for a cleaning is a $500 Arai. (Oddly enough, the glue on the pads isn't very durable when you add a flood of water!)

For me, an off road helmet can be cheap. The speeds on the trail are slow enough that any knock on my head, even against a rock, will be addressed by it. What it gives me is room for goggles, room for air, and a clear conscience not to run it through the dishwasher because it has an assigned place in my life.

I opted for separate road and dirt helmets. I just don't enjoy sticking my head in a sweat and dust encrusted lid unless I know it's just going to get sweatier and dustier, so the dual-purpose ones seem pointless to me.

[olhogrider]

I was going to ride up Palomar today but on the way I got sidetracked. Decided to ride out to the Salton Sea via Anza Borego. I posted in the UCE section but here's the link to a shot video I took. http://vimeo.com/user4872598

[Arizoni]

Somehow, going up a mountain to cooler air sounds like a lot more fun than going down into the low desert with all of its heat right now.

[olhogrider]

Yeah, the heat was bad but the blowing, drifting sand was the worst. At least this time I was wearing my full face. Only exposed skin was my neck. Not like Angeles Crest last week. Open face helmet when I encountered a swarm of bees. Probably hit 100 of them.

[barenekd]

Yeah, I haven't had a chance to ride up Palomar Mountain either, but everyone who talks to me about bikes here in North County mentions it.  From what I hear about how many riders go there, I imagine there has to be cops from top to bottom?  DeLuz, on the other hand, is a ghost town.

There are three roads from the 76 that go up to Palomar, or at least to Mother's, a kinda of Vegan restaurant where the three roads intersect. There is one road past that that goes up to the Observatory
The aforementioned Nat Harrison Grade is the western dirt one. can be steep and fairly tight. It's about 7 miles in the dirt and about 3 of not great pavement. The South grade is the middle one, fairly short, about 7 miles, fairly steep and is very tight, the East Grade is the longest one and made up of medium to fast sweepers in about 12 miles. Not as steep as the South Grade. The South and East grades are nicely paved and maintained. All of them are great fun. It's about 5000' at Mothers.
The cops do run there on weekends. They have a lot of squids to pick up. Usually, during the week, traffic is very light. It's about 5000' at Mothers.
Back in the '90s there were several San Diego groups that essentially lived there racing, literally,up and down the mountain. The traffic was really heavy, but cops, and a dwindling interest in sportbikes have cut the crowds, but it still draws a lot of people on weekends.
DiLuz is totally different riding. Deluz itself is about 17 miles from Fallbrook to Carancho, where I usually turn off. DeLuz goes for a couple of more miles up to Rancho California. It's generally well maintained, with a few rough spots when you get into Riverside County. From Fallbrook, it climbs up some foot hills on a medium twisty open road then starts back down into a nicely wooded section the tightens up as it follows a creek bed in the bottom of the valley. It's a beautiful ride down there and there are a few spots where if it's been raining, the water passes over the road and can get mossy in a wet year. It's been fairly clean the last few years. Then it climbs up out of the valley and trees onto the end. the valley is a big farming area for oranges and avocados and there are some beautiful houses down there on the other roads  that twist down among the orchards. It's easy to do 50-100 miles down there without repeating your tracks if you familiar with the area. There are some dead ends and there are some dirt roads to throw in the mix. It's a great place to ride and even on weekends the traffic isn't too bad. It's one of those spots that if you don't know about it, you're not likely to accidentally stumble into it. It's generally not even particularly well mapped.
Bare

[boggy]

10-4 on the dirt riding gear.  I didn't even think of following another rider kicking up dust.

We went up South Grade and down Nate Harrison this weekend in the 4Runner.  I'm impressed you took the Guzzi up Harrison, Bare!  Hiked some trails up there - beautiful.  Felt good to be in a forest again, after all this desert scenery.  I'll be getting some tires on the DRZ before I try going up Nate Harrison.

We went up the South Grade and saw a few guys scream by with their knees down.  Not too much room for error there unless you are packing a parachute.

I have so much fun riding DeLuz.  Like you said, even on weekends I'll only see a few other humans on that entire road.  Starting to get the idea of where the sandy bits are, as the canyon wall erodes.  Can't wait to try the Enfield out there. 

[barenekd]

Not too much room for error there unless you are packing a parachute.

There have been quite a few who wished they had one! Fortunately I haven't been one of them!
Bare

[REpozer]

I feel more at home on dirt and gravel roads. Asphalt does hurt... I have learned. Asphalt has many dangerous drivers . I say all this , because I consider real street riders as bad a$$es..so dirt should be easy.

A good way to learn to ride in dirt, is to follow a dirt you trust, .... Monkey see , monkey do.