Author Topic: Merits Of Longer Rod And A Piston With Wrist Pin Closer To Crown  (Read 2744 times)

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cafeman

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Looking at pistons I've been comparing those for the Bullets, specifically the Hitchcock 8.5:1 piston to an S&S Harley XLCH 74" stroker piston (pistons I had a long time ago on a Sporty and am very well acquainted with) and it's got me thinking that there is a lot of weight way up there far away from the wrist pin of the Bullet pistons. Seems having the bulk of the piston weight as close as possible to the wrist pin may be a better bet than all that weight placed further away as it is with the Enfield. Anybody here tried such a thing on a Bullet? The longer rod might require notches on the bottom of the barrel and cases for clearance as is required on the Sportster stroker setup, but aside from that it should be possible. Not sure of how much longer the rod would need to be for such a setup, but it is intriguing. Certainly it has been pondered by others, even attempted?  Not talking about fitting a ready made piston, rather a custom piston and rod. Pictures are just for an example of wrist pin placement. Here's an S&S piston for a 74" Sportster:


compared to the piston for our Bullets:

« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 04:34:12 am by cafeman »


Nixie

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I'd be interested to see what Ace and others will have to say about this, I wondered the same recently when putting the fireball together.


ace.cafe

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Yes, the pin location on the stock Bullet is fairly low on the piston, and it can benefit from being set higher, near the lbottom of the oil ring, but not intruding into the oil ring groove.

The Harley piston shows the pin intruding into the oil ring groove, and that is a fairly extreme measure which potentially can affect oil ring stability.

Basically, the observation made of the mass being located far away from the pin is correct, and this contributes to piston rocking action. In the stock form, it is not much of a dome, or mass, so it's not much of an issue. In the Hitchcock's piston shown, it is significantly more of an issue, especially in light of the overweight mass of the Hitchcock piston to begin with.

The reason that the "piston kits" offered for sale all have the pin locations the same as stock is for easy installation into the stock engine platform.  However, in a racing engine or specialty build, the pin can be placed anywhere it needs to be. We have produced pistons with several different pin locations for different piston applications, even in standard height barrels, in order to achieve different compression ratings for our piston. We can make our pistons, or custom racing pistons in any configuration, including pin height, and we have. We also have the lightest piston(396 grams) available for the Bullet, and that there isn't such a heavy mass up high with our superior crown design.

Here's a couple pics of our forged ACE 9:1 ultralight piston.


A shot of our under-dome machining for lightening the piston.


Now, the issue of the longer rod is one which we have studied, regarding some of our more high performance applications. A longer rod has some benefits, but also some drawbacks.  In this case, the benefit would be allowing a shorter and lighter piston with less rock to be used. However, the longer rod gains mass in the beam with longer length, and the rod is steel, and the piston is aluminum. The reciprocating mass would be affected in a way we would not want.
So, the way to handle this is to move the pin up to just below the oil ring groove, and cut the barrel down to the proper height to get the compression height needed for this piston. This way you get reduced "dead weight" of the barrel, and you get the advantage of the lighter piston with the higher pin height, without paying any weight penalty in reciprocating mass, and the rod length stays the same.
That, in a nutshell, is the way to do it.
However, we can offer Carrillo rods for the Bullet in any length, and also custom pistons with whatever pin height or crown shape or compression rating that might be wanted. And we also can design chamber modifications for new chamber shapes and crown designs of a more modern "squish" type design, which we have done for others.

Bullet Whisperer has taken this to an even further extent on at least one of his racers, and used a shorter rod length, and cut the barrel down quite a bit, and also used a taller pin height on the piston. This would only be done on a Bullet aiming for very high rpms, and the lightest reciprocating mass possible. When making larger scale changes like this, the big change in rod length does affect the breathing characteristics of the engine, and may require different camming to optimize for the much shorter rod.

If you have interest in the lightest and best pistons for the Bullet, either custom or our normal style, or custom work on your cylinder head porting or valve train, please contact me.



« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 01:03:45 pm by ace.cafe »
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cafeman

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That covers it I'd say! The reason I bring this topic up is (as you may or may not recall) that my bike has been pushing more oil out the breather than usual, and there has been smoke coming out of the breather hose, as well as the exhaust has oil mist coating it, progressively more on the last few rides. After a few other smaller niggles, and one last ride I decided to pull the top end off (something I had been putting off for as long as possible)
I have a few issues: a sunk exhaust valve seat, the need to go oversize on the guides as they were pretty easy to tap out , and a 535 piston (w/iron barrel) that has scoring from too much heat and is pretty loose in the bore. That was the source of the breather/smoke/oil issue, blow-by.....and not to mention some piston slap noise. I've been planning on a full rebuild and am in the process of deciding on how far or extreme I want to go. I'm pretty certain on going to a standard bore alloy barrel, I want the re-bores (and light piston/rod assembly)  vs. taking something all the way out and  just make-up the slight power/torque loss elsewhere a much as possible. Lots to ponder, too wishy-washy at the moment, but have a general idea, just need to narrow it down and decide! Oh and keep costs reasonable. You'll be hearing from me soon ;)


cyrusb

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Thats a lot of wear, how many miles on the build?
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


cafeman

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Thats a lot of wear, how many miles on the build?

Really no idea as I bought the bike with the big bore already done. It has the CMW sourced oil pumps, 34mm Mikuni and Goldstar exhaust. Pretty sure the previous owner changed out the speedometer as the mileage was low (even though the appearance was excellent) I'm sure my riding style helped things along, too much heat build-up, likely lugged it a bit too I reckon. Oh well, I have seen worse

When we talk about triple angle valve jobs I don't believe this is what we're talking about........
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 05:20:17 pm by cafeman »


ace.cafe

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The exhaust seat doesn't look sunk to me. It's just that strange cut that they did, which I guess was some kind of reversion dam or something like that. Anyway, that can be fixed.

I don't know what piston that is, but it has the usual heat damage.
Even though that looks bad, it is no worse than most of the ones that we replace. It's not able to be re-used, but I have seen worse ones than that. Not sure who made that piston. Put it on a scale and see how many grams it weighs with and without pin.
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cafeman

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Pretty certain it came from CMW, it looks the same as whats in their catalogs for the big bore kit which if you look at the kit it is clearly different than the Hitchcocks version.  Barely can make out an NUSA and cyl=87.00 stamped on the top. Weight is approx 417 and 499 w/pin.
The exhaust valve seems fine, not burned up (sunk) The seat cut makes sense now, I agree it is strange, either way it won't be like that when I'm done!