Author Topic: 2012 C5 EFI 500 Military ECU dead?  (Read 8203 times)

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Blinke

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on: January 20, 2014, 05:05:30 pm
Hello,

I´ve got a serious problem with my EFI 500 and I hope you guys can help me.

After 2013 driving season my bike worked fine as it had been since I bought it new. A couple of weeks ago I tried to start it but the battery was dead. I disconnected the battery and re-charged it. Overall the battery was disconnected for about two weeks. When I re-connected it the bike wouldn´t start. In fact the MIL light nor the fuel light wouldn´t light when ignition was turned on. Also the fuel pump remained silent. I even checked the ignition by cranking the motor by kick-starter - but as you could guess I had no spark. I do get the lights on and you can clearly hear that the power relays clicks but all other functions remains dead.

- I checked the battery connection. Everything is fine and connected.
- All the fuses are OK.
- I connected the test-pin to the ground but didn´t get any MIL signal.

It seems that the ECU is totally dead. I haven´t yet managed to check if the ECU gets power but there´s no reason why it wouldn´t. But then again there´s no obvious reason why it would have broken..

Is it possible to test the ECU? I´m running out of ideas.. 

   

 


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Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 05:08:28 pm
That sounds like a dead battery. did you mean UCE?
Best Wishes, Craig McClure


High On Octane

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Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 05:10:07 pm
Your battery is junk buddy, time to replace it. 

Scottie
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azcatfan

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Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 05:17:19 pm
Your battery is junk buddy, time to replace it. 

Scottie

Yup, when you kill one hard enough, they don't come back.  Unless you arced something when you reconnected the battery, I doubt the ECU (engine control unit?  I don't know what the on-board computers on the newer bikes are called officially) just up and died. 
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High On Octane

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Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 05:22:35 pm
Yup, when you kill one hard enough, they don't come back.  Unless you arced something when you reconnected the battery, I doubt the ECU (engine control unit?  I don't know what the on-board computers on the newer bikes are called officially) just up and died.

I thought that at first, but he mentioned that all the fuses were good.  If he had grounded something out there would be at LEAST 1 burnt fuse, so that eliminates that.  And yes, once a battery gets to the point of no return it will act like there's no battery at all, hence why nothing is turning on.

Scottie
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Blinke

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Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 05:50:53 pm
The battery is fine. I just charged it and the headlights are really bright. But everything related to the engine control unit (ECU) is dead. That´s why I believe that this issue is one way or another related to the ECU or its power supply.


High On Octane

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Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 06:02:32 pm
The battery is fine. I just charged it and the headlights are really bright. But everything related to the engine control unit (ECU) is dead. That´s why I believe that this issue is one way or another related to the ECU or its power supply.

What brand battery and how old is it?  How many volts is it at?  Did you take it to a parts store and have it tested?  Just because your lights are doesn't mean you have enough juice for the bike to start.  Only other option is a bad fuse.  I've never heard of these ECUs going bad and it's quite rare on any vehicle.

Scottie
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Blinke

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Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 06:22:40 pm
What brand battery and how old is it?  How many volts is it at?  Did you take it to a parts store and have it tested?  Just because your lights are doesn't mean you have enough juice for the bike to start.  Only other option is a bad fuse.  I've never heard of these ECUs going bad and it's quite rare on any vehicle.

Scottie

Hi Scottie,

I don´t recall the brand but today when I measured it gave 12,8 V even with the ignition turned on. Now if the battery would be dead the voltage should drop when the ignition is turned on, right? I have also the possibility to have the charger connected when battery is hooked up but I haven´t done it because the battery seems good.

When the ignition is turned on the MIL (motor indicator lamp) should light and the fuel pump should start which they don´t. As these don´t require much juice I really think the problem is elsewhere than in the battery. I appreciate the help! 


High On Octane

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Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 06:31:39 pm
Then perhaps you have a problem with your side stand switch.  Unplug it and see if it fires up.

Scottie
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


Blinke

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Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 06:48:45 pm
If everything would work normally the MIL should light for a short while when ignition is turned on. Then if eg. the side stand, neutral indicator, rollover sensor etc. would give signal the MIL would light again. Now the MIL is dead all the time. But yes, I will check the sensors.
 
     


Royalista

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Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 06:55:41 pm
I know of at least one dead ECU in my area. I have no more information but that it died suddenly, for no apparent reason. So it does happen, although rare. I hope yours is still in warranty and can be replaced quickly.
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barenekd

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Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 07:42:24 pm
Turning on the ignition alone doesn't pull much power. Does the headlight work? Connect the headlight to the battery and see what kind power the battery has then. Since the battery appeared to be the initial problem, it probably still is. Sounds like it's sulfated. The standard battery is not exactly a high quality item! The ECU doesn't control the starter. It should work.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 08:26:44 pm
Hello,

I´ve got a serious problem with my EFI 500 and I hope you guys can help me.

After 2013 driving season my bike worked fine as it had been since I bought it new. A couple of weeks ago I tried to start it but the battery was dead. I disconnected the battery and re-charged it. Overall the battery was disconnected for about two weeks. When I re-connected it the bike wouldn´t start. In fact the MIL light nor the fuel light wouldn´t light when ignition was turned on. Also the fuel pump remained silent. I even checked the ignition by cranking the motor by kick-starter - but as you could guess I had no spark. I do get the lights on and you can clearly hear that the power relays clicks but all other functions remains dead.

- I checked the battery connection. Everything is fine and connected.
- All the fuses are OK.
- I connected the test-pin to the ground but didn´t get any MIL signal.

It seems that the ECU is totally dead. I haven´t yet managed to check if the ECU gets power but there´s no reason why it wouldn´t. But then again there´s no obvious reason why it would have broken..

Is it possible to test the ECU? I´m running out of ideas.. 

   

   Sooooo....... The only thing that changed from when the bike last ran to now is the removing and reinstalling of the battery...    Ummmmmmmmm.  ECU's generally don't go bad just sitting there.   And I highly doubt you spiked it installing the battery..... installing the battery Ummmmmmm.    I would bet that your  ECU has power..... But it doesn't have ground.   Check the small black wire, connected to the main ground wire on the negative side of the battery... it has a snap lock connector that may have pulled out when you installed the battery.  Without that MAIN ECU ground NOTHING will happen.  You will have no ground at your starter relay, it ties into your ECU. Your bike wont even crank.......  Check it first.  Even if you find it connected.... probe for continuity from the back side's of the conector to make sure the connector itself is good.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 08:29:18 pm by gashousegorilla »
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Craig McClure

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Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 09:17:48 pm
You could fry an ECU by crossing/shorting battery leads. I had a "Road Service" Goon jump start my 2002 Nissan truck battery, & the guy fried my trucks brain, but wouldn't admit it. Hope tour ECU is cheaper than a Nissans.
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Arizoni

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Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 09:35:08 pm
Blinke

I'm pretty sure this didn't happen but if the battery was connected backwards (positive wire on negative terminal/ negative wire on positive terminal) the lights would work fine but all of  the solid state equipment would fail to work.

I suppose if the battery was totally dead when you recharged it you could have connected the charger backwards so the power the battery is producing is opposite what the terminals indicate.

A volt/ohm multimeter could tell you if this happened.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


gashousegorilla

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Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 09:47:18 pm
You could fry an ECU by crossing/shorting battery leads. I had a "Road Service" Goon jump start my 2002 Nissan truck battery, & the guy fried my trucks brain, but wouldn't admit it. Hope tour ECU is cheaper than a Nissans.


  I suppose reversing the polarity at the battery is possible ... BUT.....  I do not believe his relays would pull in.



 
Blinke

I'm pretty sure this didn't happen but if the battery was connected backwards (positive wire on negative terminal/ negative wire on positive terminal) the lights would work fine but all of  the solid state equipment would fail to work.

I suppose if the battery was totally dead when you recharged it you could have connected the charger backwards so the power the battery is producing is opposite what the terminals indicate.

A volt/ohm multimeter could tell you if this happened.

  Battery charger's usually are reverse polarity protected.... unless it's ancient. but possible....
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #16 on: January 20, 2014, 10:27:28 pm


 I do get the lights on and you can clearly hear that the power relays clicks but all other functions remains dead.
 

   


 If it helps....... IF.... you have a ground issue with the ECU. You will likely hear the power and side stand relay ( if connected and operational) pull in . But not the fuel pump relay.....   And no , BTW, there is no diagnostic tool to test the ECU.
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Blinke

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Reply #17 on: January 21, 2014, 05:45:21 pm
Here´re some answers to the questions that has come up:

- The battery has got plenty of juice. I used a smart charger for charging http://www.ctek.com/fi/en/chargers/MXS%207.0 that even de-sulfates the battery. Anyhow because there´s plenty of power in it so that´s clearly not the problem.

- Ground cable for the ECU is also connected as all other cables.

- Polarity of the battery is correct. Black to "-" and red to "+". As a matter of fact the cables aren´t long enough to mix up the polarity.

I checked the motor indication lamp in case this would have been some kind of a "closed loop" problem but the light was ok.

Next I will check all the cut off sensors (side stand, rollover switch etc.) and relays. After that all that remains is checking the power connection to the ECU and the ECU itself however that can be done. Unfortunately my work interferes with my hobbies so this might take some time...

 


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Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 10:57:29 pm
I know you said the fuses were OK but it would be good to buy some new ones and replace the old ones.

Sometimes a fuse won't really "blow" leaving tell-tail indications.  They can just break internally and look quite normal.
Jim
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #19 on: January 21, 2014, 11:45:52 pm
 
Here´re some answers to the questions that has come up:

- The battery has got plenty of juice. I used a smart charger for charging http://www.ctek.com/fi/en/chargers/MXS%207.0 that even de-sulfates the battery. Anyhow because there´s plenty of power in it so that´s clearly not the problem.

- Ground cable for the ECU is also connected as all other cables.

- Polarity of the battery is correct. Black to "-" and red to "+". As a matter of fact the cables aren´t long enough to mix up the polarity.

I checked the motor indication lamp in case this would have been some kind of a "closed loop" problem but the light was ok.

Next I will check all the cut off sensors (side stand, rollover switch etc.) and relays. After that all that remains is checking the power connection to the ECU and the ECU itself however that can be done. Unfortunately my work interferes with my hobbies so this might take some time...

 


  Here is a thought on your ECU that may save you some leg work..... And I'm not sure if your bike is under warranty or not?  But if it is... why not try contacting your dealer and explaining the situation to him.  He may let you bring in the ECU to him and plug it into another bike..... Short of doing that, I really don't now how one could definitely tell if a ECU is bad or not..... without a diagnostic tool that is.

  Looking at the charger you are using.... and I have no experience with that particular one BTW. And It may mean nothing now.... But it does say it charges at 7 amps ?   If it does...  THAT is far too much for a bike battery .  Usually, you want them to trickle charge at 2 amps or less.   And the one you linked, is not the ones they list for motorcycles...... 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:57:44 pm by gashousegorilla »
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JVS

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Reply #20 on: January 22, 2014, 12:06:37 am
This really may not be the case, but, when the ignition is on, do you see the neutral '(N)' indicator light on? Sometimes even if the bike is in neutral, the light may not be on because of the switch. This also doesn't let you start the bike. Just a thought..

Refer to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_6W7QS5WQc
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Arizoni

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Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 01:08:12 am
Another quicky that has probably been tried once but it is worth trying again:

First, turn the red KILL switch off.  Wait a few seconds.
Then, turn the key on.  Wait a few seconds.
Next, click the red KILL button on. 

If something pissed off your rollover switch, this should reset it.
Jim
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JVS

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Reply #22 on: January 22, 2014, 04:18:28 am
Another suggestion before you do the above is to open the right-hand control cluster and check the contacts of the red 'kill-switch'. Make sure the wires are okay in there.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 04:31:28 am
Here´re some answers to the questions that has come up


I checked the motor indication lamp in case this would have been some kind of a "closed loop" problem but the light was ok.

Next I will check all the cut off sensors (side stand, rollover switch etc.) and relays. After that all that remains is checking the power connection to the ECU and the ECU itself however that can be done. Unfortunately my work interferes with my hobbies so this might take some time...


     It's good to check those sensors ... BUT....  You should have a MIL light even if it was a sensor, BUT you don't.  It almost HAS to be a bad ground... or your ECU is shot.  Here is why.... You said the bulb is good AND the power relay pulls in and your fuses are ok.  The hot side of that bulb gets power when the power relay pulls in.   You can confirm this after the relay pulls in, by checking the hot side of the MIL light socket  with a test light or Meter, if the test light lights or you have 12v's ?  Your good on power there.  You can do the same on pin #1 at the ECU... to confirm if you want... they are tied in.

  The GROUND side of the MIL light is switched on by the ECU, At pin #21.   So, if you find power at the MIL light with the above tests.. You know your not getting ground out of the ECU.  You can confirm that by  grounding out the bulb with a jumper to the frame , and to the case of the bulb.  IF it lights ?  You have just by passed the ECU ground.... and confirmed your not getting ground from where you are supposed to.    This ECU is a ground switcher.... To kill EVERTHING... ALL your sensors.... AND your MIL light.  It almost HAS to be a bad main ground.... somewhere in the line to the ECU.   Or the ECU itself.    You SHOULD have a MIL light.......
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High On Octane

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Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 11:59:42 am
Just a thought......  Perhaps the ground lead on the battery has failed?   ???
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


gashousegorilla

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Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 02:15:21 pm
Just a thought......  Perhaps the ground lead on the battery has failed?   ???


  THAT is exactly what I'm thinking Scottie.  Even though he has checked that it is plugged in.... The integrity of that wire and it's connections, from it's tie in at the ground strap, through the plug, to and through the pin at the ECU plug.....
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Blinke

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Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 03:01:07 pm
And the winner is:

Then perhaps you have a problem with your side stand switch.  Unplug it and see if it fires up.

Scottie

So it was the side stand switch. Apparently the bad side stand switch kills all ECU-functions, even the MIL light. It´s now clear when looking at the wiring diagram that it really does do that but anyhow it´s a stupid circuit in my opinion.

I find it quite interesting that the side stand switch can go bad by just sitting in a dry garage. But I´m truly glad that it wasn´t the ECU.

Thanks for all the help guys and especially you Scottie!


High On Octane

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Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 03:44:07 pm
I can't take all the credit, we're a team/family here!   :D
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 04:18:32 pm
And the winner is:

So it was the side stand switch. Apparently the bad side stand switch kills all ECU-functions, even the MIL light. It´s now clear when looking at the wiring diagram that it really does do that but anyhow it´s a stupid circuit in my opinion.

I find it quite interesting that the side stand switch can go bad by just sitting in a dry garage. But I´m truly glad that it wasn´t the ECU.

Thanks for all the help guys and especially you Scottie!
 

 
   EXCELLENT !  Glad you got it !   Yes it does kill the entire ECU..... and if working correctly , the MIL light should come on with the stand down.... If these schematics are correct. Odd how you heard the power relay Click? ... or the side-stand relay. But, I guess you may have been getting an erratic connection at the switch, and maybe the relay was clicking , but not making contact?.....  Stupid circuit indeed !!. If not the idea.....  I pulled that entire circuit, and it's relay  when I rewired my bike .
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Craig McClure

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Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 05:12:10 pm
I grew up without side stand switches, & never needed one, looks like you didn't need yours either. Its removal makes your bike that much more bullet proof (no pun intended). Good work!
Next consider watching the U-tube video about removing the plug-in 6" pigtail behind the headlight. After doing this YOU can turn YOUR LIGHT on & off. I'm using a 7" reflector with a extra socket for a Pilot light, wired to the running/parking light circuit. Running my LED pilot bulb keeps me legal, while keeping my electric consumption down & my charging capability up.
I also use a red LED Tail/Brake light bulb, to save amps.
I feel all these measures are reliability improvements on U.S. DOT Nanny State foolishness.
Best Wishes, Craig McClure


Blinke

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Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 05:24:01 pm
Quote
EXCELLENT !  Glad you got it !   Yes it does kill the entire ECU..... and if working correctly , the MIL light should come on with the stand down.... If these schematics are correct. Odd how you heard the power relay Click? ... or the side-stand relay. But, I guess you may have been getting an erratic connection at the switch, and maybe the relay was clicking , but not making contact?.....  Stupid circuit indeed !!. If not the idea.....  I pulled that entire circuit, and it's relay  when I rewired my bike .

That´s the stupid thing about the side stand switch - it´s not behind the MIL light. The relays I heard click was the power relays for headlights etc. But there´s another relay to the ECU that is controlled by the side stand switch. My initial assumption was that the MIL light should have lit if the side stand switch was broken. But this wasn´t the case. Truly interesting wiring. 


gashousegorilla

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Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 05:31:58 pm
That´s the stupid thing about the side stand switch - it´s not behind the MIL light. The relays I heard click was the power relays for headlights etc. But there´s another relay to the ECU that is controlled by the side stand switch. My initial assumption was that the MIL light should have lit if the side stand switch was broken. But this wasn´t the case. Truly interesting wiring.


  Yes.... I agree . VERY interesting wiring.   WHY not just wire it inline, between the start button and the starter relay ?!   The only thing I can come up with is.... they want an idiot light on when you forget, and leave the side stand down. And that idiot light would also be the MIL light.  But if the switch is not functioning correctly ?!  WOW !   Make you pull your hair out for sure.....
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Ducati Scotty

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Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 05:54:08 pm
At least it's easy to disable, even on the side of the road.  Just pull the plug.  Kevin has said that you can use a Dremel to elongate the mounting holes.  The problem is the switch is not aligned properly so that it gets tripped by the stand.  If you open up the mounting holes you can get it in the right spot.

That said, I disconnected mine a long time ago and never looked back.  I had one on my Ducati but it was smarter.  If you were in neutral it ran, put it in gear and it died.  Makes it so you can warm it up on the side stand.  The all or nothing style on the RE bugged me, mostly because I'm too lazy to put it on the center stand to warm up ;)

And +1 to enabling the headlight switch by removing the shunt.  It's nice to have a little extra juice to start the bike when you need it.

Scott


gashousegorilla

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Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 07:20:14 pm
At least it's easy to disable, even on the side of the road.  Just pull the plug.  Kevin has said that you can use a Dremel to elongate the mounting holes.  The problem is the switch is not aligned properly so that it gets tripped by the stand.  If you open up the mounting holes you can get it in the right spot.

That said, I disconnected mine a long time ago and never looked back.  I had one on my Ducati but it was smarter.  If you were in neutral it ran, put it in gear and it died.  Makes it so you can warm it up on the side stand.  The all or nothing style on the RE bugged me, mostly because I'm too lazy to put it on the center stand to warm up ;)



Scott


  Or not on level ground where you can't use the center stand......

 
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Sectorsteve

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Reply #34 on: January 24, 2014, 08:10:52 am
Awesome. This forum is just awesome. Who needs manuals when we got each other here aye. Stoked for you its just that dumb switch...Easy remedy


ROVERMAN

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Reply #35 on: January 24, 2014, 05:53:46 pm
Sorry to have not noticed this thread. This same scenario happened to me after my 1st oil change. I had inadvertently left my side stand down when i changed the filter then put the bike on the centre stand. Took me a few minutes to realize what a dumbass i had been!
Roverman.