Author Topic: ES not engaging (somtimes) (Read 6886 times)

REpozer · **on:** July 02, 2008, 06:53:44 am

The electric starter was giving symptoms similar to a stuck solenoid. I did the 300mile service and drained the primary of 420ml of factory ATF. Looks good with some fine particles and a few about as big as black pepper.Poured in 946ml of 20w-50 and the ES has been engaging as it should. I'm a little worried about the sprag clutch.Change gear box to a Sim synthetic 75-90. and moved on to change the engine oil(what an experience) and filter. I'm still not sure if I drained the timing chest, I think it drains though the filter opening(not sure).Took less then 2 quarts. Back on the road.

Foggy_Auggie · **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2008, 05:30:38 pm

If yours is the iron barrel - use the kickstart and place the piston right after TDC before engaging the ES. I do this with my hand to get a finer placement without a lot of overthrow.

This allows engagement and about 200 degrees of crank rotation before the starter meets compression resistance.

After blowing my starter gears early on, the above procedure has worked without problems.

Foggy_Auggie · **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2008, 10:11:12 pm

Oops! - I see you have the AVL. There should be a circuit interrupter that allows a 360 degree rotation before the ignition ignites during ES.

PhilJ · **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2008, 10:56:45 pm

I didn't quit fallow that Foggy, What has the 360 got to do with compression? I thought that was what took out the sprague clutch.

Foggy_Auggie · **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2008, 02:06:04 am

I just remember our host mentioning the AVL has an ignition delay when using the electric starter. I suppose the same after TDC principle would apply, though, to the AVL.

The sprague would engage after TDC and the kinetic inertia of the crank would "cushion" the compression bump of a fully engaged starter drive. This is pre-positioning the piston with the kickstarter.

PhilJ · **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2008, 03:58:32 pm

So does that mean the starter can turn the engine without the sprague engaged? Obviously I don't know a lot about all this. grrr

Foggy_Auggie · **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2008, 08:41:38 pm

Quote from: PhilJ on July 03, 2008, 03:58:32 pm

So does that mean the starter can turn the engine without the sprague engaged? Obviously I don't know a lot about all this. grrr

No. The piston positioning detail is this. When the engine is shut off it normally stops rotation coming right up on compression. It is before TDC. In this position, if the starter is engaged, the whole starter drive (clutch and gears) is initially impacted by the highest resistance to crank rotation.

When the piston is set after TDC, the starter drive gets to "freewheel" the whole reciprocating assembly and build up inertia before it reaches the highest resistance in crank rotation.

This seems to add a lot life to the sprague clutch.

Wrong timing and some backfiring (severe kickback) at shut down can break the teeth on the starter drive.

PhilJ · **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2008, 09:02:21 pm

Gotcha, thanks.

REpozer · **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2008, 09:12:19 pm

This sprag clutch thing really has me shaken in my boots. Thanks Foggy I started to kick her over to find TDC, and after refilling the primary with a quart(946ml) of 20w-50 I have not had any problems with the ES. My concern is if the sprag grenades on me I'll have to do the work , or ship the engine in a box to someone else.

Phil, do you know if a delay has been added to these bikes?

Foggy_Auggie · **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2008, 11:28:19 pm

Quote from: REpozer on July 03, 2008, 09:12:19 pm

This sprag clutch thing really has me shaken in my boots.
Phil, do you know if a delay has been added to these bikes?

Don't be afraid. Just handle her/him gently, simply, logical and go ride!

PhilJ · **Reply #10 on:** July 04, 2008, 01:45:30 pm

Pozer I really can't say with authority. Read the two posts by Foggy above yours. But according to Foggy (inferring) Put the piston over TDC with the kick starter then use the electric. But to me if you've gone that far it's just as easy to go ahead and kick start.
I read a post about kick starting by Kevin and have been using that method since. I've only used the electric start once since.
Briefly, it goes like this: Cold - turn petcock on. Engage compression release - kick through 3 to 10 times (my addition to his method - different per bike). Release compression kick just over TDC - turn on key - with no throttle applied kick firmly through. Mine usually starts on first kick.
Hopefully this will help or answer your questions,
PJ

bob bezin · **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2008, 01:48:41 pm

my electric start only works when the bike is warm. strange. i must kick it over a few times with the compression release on, then use the es while it is turning over then it will kick in ..and as i said once the bike is warmed up it works just fine just an idiosyncracy of my bike i guess. any comments?

PhilJ · **Reply #12 on:** July 05, 2008, 01:54:14 pm

How's your battery? Sounds like there may not be enough juice to turn it over until it's been run.

Vince · **Reply #13 on:** July 05, 2008, 04:03:13 pm

I have much less problems with the starter clutch on frequent use bikes. A fully charged battery combined with the fresher gas really eases sprag problems. If you don't ride regularly you must keep the battery charged. The Deltran Battery Tender works great. Also, Drain your carb before starting to purge the old gas in it.

bob bezin · **Reply #14 on:** July 05, 2008, 07:53:25 pm

new battery. bike run almost every day and i have a battery tender installed and every time i plug it in it says full charge

Leonard · **Reply #15 on:** July 05, 2008, 08:30:28 pm

Bob,
When it doesn't work is the starter running but just not engaging? I wonder if the sprag clutch is sticking when it is cold? Have you tried running more oil in the primary as Vince has suggested?
Leonard

REpozer · **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2008, 02:08:49 am

I agree with Leonard, I would dump a full quart or liter of 20w-50 petroleum base,into the primary (you can water it down with some ATF if stiffness is an issue) try to do the TDC thing ,keep battery charged and leads clean and tight. Sprag be good, off to riding.

bob bezin · **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2008, 03:24:08 am

no motor does not run its like some safety switch is holding it back sometimes i think its the clutch switch but if i turn the bike over with the kickstart a few revs than the starter will kick in

scoTTy · **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2008, 04:37:04 am

sounds like my computer $:-\$

Leonard · **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2008, 12:53:11 pm

Ya got me Bob, some kind of electrical problem that is difficult to figure out on a forum. Guess I'd get my multi meter and start probeing around.

REpozer · **Reply #20 on:** July 25, 2008, 03:49:24 am

I haven't had a recurrence of the starter spinning and not engaging in about 3-weeks.My guess is that filling the primary with a quart of 20w-50 petroleum motor oil has solved the problem of what looked like a sprage clutch operating without enough oil.

Bankerdanny · **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2008, 05:46:11 pm

I replaced my sprag assembly. Do some searching, I posted pics of the sprag clutch.

I had some difficulty getting mine apart because the snap ring that holds the clutch in place didn't have holes for snap ring pliers. No matter what I did (including destroying the original already damaged sprag) I could not get the ring out.

I ended up sending mine to Vince in Washington for dissasembly and to have him modify the shaft that the assembly rides on for better lubrication. It turned out that the surface that the sprag rides on had been scored by the bad sprag and I had to replace the whole assembly and not just the clutch (on the plus side, I have a spare sprag now if the new one goes).

The new assembly came with a proper snap ring and I was able to put it all back together and into the primary case in about 30 minutes.

Once back together, and with a new battery, it works like brand new. I don't do anything special, just turn the key and hit the button and it fires up immediately with no extra noises or drama.

clamp · **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2008, 03:01:57 am

A sprag clutch is a very simple device and looks much like a ball bearing, having two main component races, inner and outer. Some have like small figure of 8 pieces that jam in one direction. Others have balls in a ramp. When the balls go down to the bottom of the ramp encouraged by the rotation it it will jam solid but rotation in the other way the ball are clear of the ramp and it rotates freely.

It can be fitted to rotate either way and the inner or outer can be the driven or the driver.

Kind like the ratchet on the rear wheel of a bicycle.

Although it does need lubrication Its simplicity is such that oil would have no effect on it in so much as inadequate oil would render it inoperative.

As Is a ball bearing, it is not an RE part, a sprag manufacturer should stock the size.

Again its simplicity is such that they can be stripped cleaned with 600 grit and re assembled, unless the manufacturer has made the so they can not be dis assembled.

Foggy_Auggie · **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2008, 04:10:20 pm

The higher oil level is for the starter drive idler gears. The straight cut teeth can take a beating on kickbacks and backfires.

clamp · **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2008, 03:15:38 am

Ahh--so the extra oil will make them stronger?

How do you get the oil to stay in the top of the housing where the gears are overnight?

Just an Idea but maybe you could kick start it first to get the oil splashed up before you use the electric start.