Author Topic: loss of oil  (Read 6731 times)

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Royalista

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on: January 12, 2014, 12:43:48 am
Gentlemen, a conundrum.

Rode off one morning to a club meeting, a mere 4 mile ride. On arrival I notice bike is dripping oil. After the meeting, two hours later, no more dripping, beneath the bike an oil spot the size of a table plate.
So I ride home. There is not a speck of oil on the floor there. So it didn't 'leak' before the ride (or ever for that matter).
Pushing the bike inside, back home, it's dripping again. It stops after some time, over which a bit of oil was collected in the dripping pan.

So now I start searching for the source. Oil had been blown into the airbox from which it dripped down, part of it slung around by the chain. There was oil all over the right hand side: chain, sprockets, frame, underside of engine,...
Logic concluded this oil blowing was done solely during both short, 4 mile long, rides.

Oil level sat now at three quarters. I estimate the 'loss' was minimal.
Last oil change was 4 months and 1100 miles ago.
Oil change was done by the book. Remember: no dripping over 1100 miles and 4 months!

This happened over a week and 200 miles ago and hasn't repeated since.
The riddle for me now: how could oil be blown into the airbox, if the level is well below maximum?

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ace.cafe

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Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 01:00:34 am
It's coming from the engine breather hose.
Clean that hose out, and blow out the breather baffle as best you can.
Make sure that the breather valve is working. I don't know where it is on the UCE, but there is probably one on there somewhere. Might look like a PCV valve.

Stuff like this typically happens when the weather conditions generate condensation inside the engine, and the condensed water mixes with the oil to form "mayo" looking stuff in there. This tends to clog the breather and build up crankcase pressure. Then the crankcase pressure blows the whole mess out the breather hose into the catch can, and then overflows into the air filter. It happens on the Iron Barrel and AVL bikes too.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 01:04:23 am by ace.cafe »
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 01:56:23 am
Gentlemen, a conundrum.

Rode off one morning to a club meeting, a mere 4 mile ride. On arrival I notice bike is dripping oil. After the meeting, two hours later, no more dripping, beneath the bike an oil spot the size of a table plate.
So I ride home. There is not a speck of oil on the floor there. So it didn't 'leak' before the ride (or ever for that matter).
Pushing the bike inside, back home, it's dripping again. It stops after some time, over which a bit of oil was collected in the dripping pan.

So now I start searching for the source. Oil had been blown into the airbox from which it dripped down, part of it slung around by the chain. There was oil all over the right hand side: chain, sprockets, frame, underside of engine,...
Logic concluded this oil blowing was done solely during both short, 4 mile long, rides.

Oil level sat now at three quarters. I estimate the 'loss' was minimal.
Last oil change was 4 months and 1100 miles ago.
Oil change was done by the book. Remember: no dripping over 1100 miles and 4 months!

This happened over a week and 200 miles ago and hasn't repeated since.
The riddle for me now: how could oil be blown into the airbox, if the level is well below maximum?


  If you STILL show 3/4 full oil level now ?..... It sounds like you over filled 1100 miles ago. Since then, what may have been happening is, you have slowly been building oil up in the air filter , until it got completely fouled.  There is no check valve or PCV valve on the crank breather.   With the air filter fouled with oil  and the air flow greatly restricted by the oil build up, you started sucking more oil up through the crank vent....   The intake needs air , and if it can't get it through the filter, it gets it from where ever it can....That would be my bet.

  The UCE engine has a labyrinth type set up, behind the right side cover which leads to the crank vent.  From the crank vent pub, or connection, a rubber hose goes to the air box, so the crank case gases and pressure ... Acidic and filled with moisture... can get pulled into the in-take and get burned off again . The Labyrinth is supposed to prevent oil blow- by into the air box.  But it seems like it doesn't work so well ,when the crank case is over filled.
 
 BTW, when I fill the crankcase with oil. I only fill to the bottom third of the glass.  Winds up being a little less then 2 quarts.

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 02:20:20 am by gashousegorilla »
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Royalista

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Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 02:33:17 am
Aha. Yes it had been raining a lot the days prior and the spill did look watery. It was one of my wild guesses, but what do I know?

The breather chamber is on the righthandside of the cover. A deflector redirects oil back to engine; fumes can go up through the pipe to the airbox.
While cleaning I found a piece of the gasket, just there. Probably moisture used this breach to get into the chamber.
I can't find a reference to breather valve. Looks like oil returns to the chamber through the push rod tunnel? It appears that this function is included in the roller hydraulic valve lifter?

Thanks for the explanation.  8)
Riddle solved.  ;D
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ace.cafe

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Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 02:51:28 am
So , how come it has no check valve in the engine breather line?

Are they banking on the extra crankcase volume of the wet sump and integrated gearbox volume to  be enough to prevent pumping losses thru that vent?
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Ducati Scotty

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Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 02:52:49 am
Yup, no valve in there that I've ever seen.  Just the labyrinth and line to the air cleaner.

Scott


Royalista

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Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 03:00:01 am
Gashousegorilla.
Sorry for the mess: my reply above was to ace. I hit post at the moment yours got in.
I've been ruminating on your theory too.
My engine uses very little oil. Less then a litre per 6000 kms. So, yes, I intend to reduce the fill up on future changes.

Oh well, by this the bullet confirmed still partaking in the tradition of the great british singles.  ;)
Here is the first drip:
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ace.cafe

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Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 03:21:29 am
Yup, no valve in there that I've ever seen.  Just the labyrinth and line to the air cleaner.

Scott
Well that's something that we'll be adding with our kit.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 03:23:17 am
Gashousegorilla.
Sorry for the mess: my reply above was to ace. I hit post at the moment yours got in.
I've been ruminating on your theory too.
My engine uses very little oil. Less then a litre per 6000 kms. So, yes, I intend to reduce the fill up on future changes.

Oh well, by this the bullet confirmed still partaking in the tradition of the great british singles.  ;)
Here is the first drip:


  No worries.... just a theory of what might cause an on again, off again oil leak on the right side, only when the bike is running  :-\ .  If you find no oil in the air box, and a clean clear filter.... never mind  ;D     Another source could be the O ring under the temp sensor.... only when the bike is running. THATS on the right side as well. Although when that one leaks, you usually see most of the oil on the left side of the cylinder..... mostly from leaning the bike over on the side stand after you park it.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 03:31:28 am by gashousegorilla »
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Craig McClure

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Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 04:05:47 am
When I bought my used G5 Deluxe, I found an oiled air filter, & sticky old oil in my air filter box. Breathers tubes are routed that way since the late 70's, in order to conform to DOT anti pollution guidelines.
  The DOT has never apprehended, or spanked me for re-routing every breather hose, on every bike I've owned since then, OUT TO THE REAR OF THE BIKE (old school fashion).  There is no PCV valve on the Enfields, & my G5 thanked me by running much better without the oil fouled filter, & constipated feeling. It will blow any over filled oil out its hose to the rear. You other desperados can do this too.
Best Wishes, Craig McClure


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Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 04:27:29 am
GHG is right.  There is a fitting on the right side of the engine that looks like a one way valve but it is only a straight thru fitting.  The rubber vent hose that runs to the air cleaner box connects to it.
The engine relies on a complex labyrinth to serve as a air/oil separator and this fitting sits right on top of it.
This labyrinth has worked very well on my motorcycle and it has kept any oil from being blown into the air filter box for almost 13,000 miles.  I should add that I usually fill my engines oil level to the top line on the sight window.

Speaking of that hose, the one on my G5 is developing a kink on it right above the vent fitting.
I suppose it is possible for the hose to get kinked to the point that what little oil gets thru the labyrinth starts to collect and build up above the kink rather than draining back into the engine.

If this were to happen, the oil buildup could be blown out of the hose into the air cleaner box as the engine warms up on a ride.  After belching out the accumulated oil, the remaining oil in the hose could be low enough that it wouldn't do this belching thing again for a few rides.

If this idea has any merit, it would be worth checking the condition of the rubber vent hose to see if it was kinked or if there was any oil in it.

Someday, before too long, I plan on changing my vent hose to a length of clear hose.
Jim
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 06:25:40 am

This labyrinth has worked very well on my motorcycle and it has kept any oil from being blown into the air filter box for almost 13,000 miles.  I should add that I usually fill my engines oil level to the top line on the sight window.



  This is interesting... And I agree, the labyrinth has worked well for me too.   The C-5 and G-5 have different right side covers.  And this may or may not effect the oil level as seen through the glass... depending on how much open area is behind, and inside the cover. They're may be  some slight difference ? 

  Also, they have different air box designs... though I would image they would have the same volume.....  BUT on the C-5's, They came out with a plastic insert to fit into the air box to seal the openings around the hinges, which would reduce the volume.  So I'm thinking..... with these little differences between the two, you may see a slightly different oil level. And a difference in, at what point the oil level would be too high as to defeat the effect of the labyrinth.... and suck oil into the air box.  MAYBE ?    Also hard riding and a dirty filter could do it as well.
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Royalista

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Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 12:17:32 pm
Well, odometer stands at 15600 miles. So, long time no fuss.
The hose is still in good shape and no kink; the way it runs it may well develop one when worn out.
The week prior to the 'incident' the air filter got a routine check and was found clean.
Still a valid theory and an incentive to give tender care, as in thorough cleaning, like on a dirtbike -getting behind every cover and corner-, even when you're tired, outtimed, and the garage floor is cold and hard. (Craig, I should know better but no HF around here).
After I had cleaned all traces, I ran the engine without airfilter and airbox open. All fine, no oil blowing. Likely, if the level had been a tat lower it wouldn't have occurred, I guess?

So, a freak event after a week of extensive riding, with lots of rain on dirty roads.
These observations may be of interest to keep in mind when people report 'leaks'. Mostly it is just excess lube kicked off by the chain behind the front sprocket. But those who find proper engine oil could benefit from the explanations here.

Made a composite picture.
Top row is the underside before and after cleaning. A large stain might have confused somebody it came from a drain plug.
Bottom row is the oil stained airfilter and the part of the gasket that sits on top of the breather chamber.

Thanks for all advice.
By the way, I think this labyrint is a cool idea. Beware of minotaurs though.  ;D
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mattsz

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Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 01:18:45 pm
Royalista - That gasket looks like a stray piece of the engine side-cover gasket - did you find it outside the engine, or inside?

Blocked oil passages have been on my mind this winter:  Is it possible that after 15k miles, some little something, like maybe a tiny piece of that broken gasket (though I'm not sure where it broke off from), took a little ride through your oil-ways and temporarily (hopefully) blocked some passage or other, enough to cause pressure to build in the wrong place and force some oil out the vent?

I ask this blissfully unencumbered by the thought process, as the boys say, or at least unencumbered by any useful experience...  ;)


gashousegorilla

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Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 04:42:59 pm
Royalista - That gasket looks like a stray piece of the engine side-cover gasket - did you find it outside the engine, or inside?

Blocked oil passages have been on my mind this winter:  Is it possible that after 15k miles, some little something, like maybe a tiny piece of that broken gasket (though I'm not sure where it broke off from), took a little ride through your oil-ways and temporarily (hopefully) blocked some passage or other, enough to cause pressure to build in the wrong place and force some oil out the vent?

I ask this blissfully unencumbered by the thought process, as the boys say, or at least unencumbered by any useful experience...  ;)


 The rear section of the right side cover gasket seals nothing..... at least on the C-5. It's the area of the gasket near the sprocket, near the screw posts.  I usually remove it when replacing the gasket.  I realized this ,after seeing a similar piece to Royalista's gasket sticking out on my bike early on.   I'll see if I can find and old one and a new one , and post a pic.   

  If a piece of gasket THAT size, that royalista posted where missing on a sealing surface of the cover.  Your could not mistake where the leak would be.  If on the bottom..... oil would run right out.  If on the top or side...... oil would blow out as soon as he started the bike.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 07:05:28 pm
    In the picture, the area to the top of the ruler is the sealing area of the gasket/ruler.  The area to the bottom of the gasket doesn't seal...... it just goes around the open area , behind the cover where the sprocket is.  The is even an area where the gasket is unsupported, and sort of flaps in the breeze...... And this is where it breaks. Usually at the screw connection at the post.  My knife, in the pic is pointing to that area where it breaks.   And that area looks very similar to what Royalista has in his pic. 

  I suppose, that if one was to have a peak behind the cover..... in the area of the sprocket.  You may see or feel that piece of gasket sticking out.  But I wouldn't sweat it.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 07:21:55 pm by gashousegorilla »
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mattsz

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Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 07:28:15 pm
Yeah, the C5 and B5 share the same cover.  My bike had the extra pieces of gasket loose and flapping in the proverbial breeze when I bought it - it was alarming to see at first!

The gaskets I got from Hitchcocks actually had little depressions at the appropriate "cuttoff" points - the one thing I did do was install the little bit of gasket which goes aft of the drive sprocket, inside the circle of the drive chain (near the point of your knife, GHG).  It doesn't seal anything, but I thought it would be wise to keep as a spacer - maybe not necessary...


gashousegorilla

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Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 07:35:03 pm
  Yup Matt, It wouldn't hurt to leave that little piece there....  And the G-5 might have a little different arrangement under there.  But they look the same.... Like in the pic you posted of Singh5's bike, with the cover removed.
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mattsz

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Reply #18 on: January 12, 2014, 07:51:15 pm
I guess it's the same gasket for all the UCE bikes, so they must be close...


gashousegorilla

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Reply #19 on: January 12, 2014, 07:57:15 pm
I guess it's the same gasket for all the UCE bikes, so they must be close...

  Yes, I would think.  And if they're are any differences ?... They could make just one gasket to suit both.
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Royalista

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Reply #20 on: January 12, 2014, 09:22:41 pm
Picture by gashousegorilla (two posts above) shows correctly part of gasket that went missing: top rear. It is part of the section covering the breather chamber, just in front of the front sprocket.
While cleaning I found it there, just hanging out.  ;)
Couldn't be the cause of the loss, as that would have giving quite other symptoms. Yikes, hot. But might it have contributed I wonder, as in facilitating moisture build up?
Rather freaky weather it was too: wet, 'hot' (averaging 50°F) but gusty northerly winds.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #21 on: January 12, 2014, 09:40:34 pm
Picture by gashousegorilla (two posts above) shows correctly part of gasket that went missing: top rear. It is part of the section covering the breather chamber, just in front of the front sprocket.
While cleaning I found it there, just hanging out.  ;)
Couldn't be the cause of the loss, as that would have giving quite other symptoms. Yikes, hot. But might it have contributed I wonder, as in facilitating moisture build up?
Rather freaky weather it was too: wet, 'hot' (averaging 50°F) but gusty northerly winds.

 
  No.... I don't think that section of the right side cover gasket could be a contributing factor. BUT.... There is a separate gasket under the cover for the Labyrinth.  MAYBE however,pressure built up in that Labyrinth and blew the gasket from the clogged filter ?  That would depend on where you see the oil coming out.  The milky oil, COULD be coming from there.  You would be getting some condensation in the case with those temps and rain..... And moisture from the byproducts of combustion that normally blow by the rings.
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barenekd

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Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 12:36:53 am
No one had has indicated any use of a gasket sealer. I use red Permatex on my case gaskets and have no problems, For one thing it holds the gasket in place while you are assembling the case, then stops leaks after the sealer has set up. It's still easy to get the parts apart. Be careful not to get the sealer into the oil galleries.
Mine was set up with a long breather tube going from the case up under the seat and back to the rear seat frame/ It worked very well with no chance of clogging the air filter with oil and I never found any oil of the back of the bike by the outlet.
Bare
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 05:43:18 pm by barenekd »
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Royalista

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Reply #23 on: January 13, 2014, 01:23:52 am
A tube all the way to the rear seat frame is indeed really long.
And leaves the airfilter unspoiled. That's truly a good thing.
Yet, I suspect this is nothing but a freak, rare, incident. And avoidable (I may assume) by adapting the volume of the oil change to the environmental conditions to be expected.
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mattsz

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Reply #24 on: January 13, 2014, 02:54:21 am
This may be a question for another thread, but while we're here - to satisfy my curiosity...

I've heard here about pumping losses, and I'm wondering about whether there would be a functional difference in engine operation between the stock air box connection, which I assume applies a suction to the vent pipe and therefore applies a negative pressure to the engine case, and running the vent pipe out the back, where there is no suction on the pipe, and no negative pressure applied to the case (excepting, perhaps, from a miniscule venturi effect of air moving past the pipe's open end).


singhg5

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Reply #25 on: January 13, 2014, 06:03:23 am
 
  No.... I don't think that section of the right side cover gasket could be a contributing factor. BUT.... There is a separate gasket under the cover for the Labyrinth.  MAYBE however,pressure built up in that Labyrinth and blew the gasket from the clogged filter ?  That would depend on where you see the oil coming out.  The milky oil, COULD be coming from there.  You would be getting some condensation in the case with those temps and rain..... And moisture from the byproducts of combustion that normally blow by the rings.

I think GHG is talking about this small compartment on the inside of right crank cover, that uses a small gasket.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:07:25 am by singhg5 »
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #26 on: January 13, 2014, 04:14:10 pm
  Yes, that's a good shot of the Labyrinth or Breather chamber cover... thanks ;)   And you can see the inlet of the chamber... down and to the left of it , in the next section of the cover... to the left.  And it's relation to the oil sight glass slot .....
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 08:19:55 pm by gashousegorilla »
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barenekd

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Reply #27 on: January 13, 2014, 05:49:45 pm
I would guess that the gasket may have been improperly installed. It's easy to get a gasket misaligned when you're putting the cases together. That's why I like to use a little gasket sealer. It keeps them in place. It's all part of "pieces of gasket sticking out."
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Ducati Scotty

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Reply #28 on: January 13, 2014, 05:55:20 pm
Funny, every time I've had the cover off I've never bothered to remove the labyrinth cover and replace that gasket, mostly because I'm too lazy to clean all the sprocket gook off the thing so I can get it off in the first place.  I figure if I ever do I'm going to seal it with permatex.  I'd be too worried about getting a leak and having to redo the whole thing.

Scott


Royalista

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Reply #29 on: January 13, 2014, 10:36:22 pm
That's what I'm going to do too. It is a bit messy in there.
I've just checked. The sealant that is most commonly used here has an upper temperature limit of 330°C, which is a tat lower than Permatex Red (343°C).
Permatex can be found here too; gonna give it a try.  :)
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #30 on: January 13, 2014, 11:21:26 pm
That's what I'm going to do too. It is a bit messy in there.
I've just checked. The sealant that is most commonly used here has an upper temperature limit of 330°C, which is a tat lower than Permatex Red (343°C).
Permatex can be found here too; gonna give it a try.  :)

   If you must use the Goop.... And I never do. I just coat the gaskets with motor oil or grease and my gaskets have never leaked on these bikes..... be judicious with it and let it cure. You don't want bits and pieces of silicon from over squeeze, circulating in the oil, passages or plugging up your breather.  I would use a new gasket as well.... But in a pinch, and if you don't have a new gasket ?   You gotta do what you have to do......
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Reply #31 on: January 14, 2014, 04:14:10 am
For what it's worth, the only area of the engine I can think of that would get over 330 degrees C (626 degrees F) is the exhaust valve, the exhaust header and the silencer and then, only under a sustained high speed full load condition.

The engine oil will have turned into smoke long before this temperature is reached.
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Reply #32 on: January 14, 2014, 02:55:18 pm
If there is concern about using silicone sealer because of bits of cured excess silicone breaking off and clogging somthing, and I do agree there IS a reasonable basis for that, then using blue Hylomar will solve that. The Hylomar doesn't cure hard, and won't clog stuff up.
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