Author Topic: Big end gone bad !  (Read 32130 times)

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AussieDave

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on: December 08, 2013, 03:58:42 am
I must report a big end bearing failure hour shy of 20,000. K . I was riding  to New South Wales  for a festival , and a knocking sound began eminating from the crank . It sort of catches up on  itself-  but a very loud knock is apparent with a screwdriver held to the ear . I located by accident a British bike guru in Philip island who has rebuilt several of these and tells me that it is a known fault partially due to crank pin alignment in the pressing process . He has a five ton press and rebuilds the crank . Bummer huh . It's gonna  cost me a bit . Thought ya all should know . Cheers .
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JVS

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Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 04:07:13 am
Oh man, sorry to hear. Just out of curiosity, did you used to rev the bike high between gears often?
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AussieDave

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Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 04:20:25 am
He also tells me he has rebuilt a couple of gearboxes due to issues with the bearings .
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.


AussieDave

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Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 04:22:56 am
Not really . I didn't have a habit of bouncing of the limiter . I did take it out to about 130 -135 briefly just before the knock started . Doh !
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.


AussieDave

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Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 04:56:22 am
This guy tells me that the  crank construction is a bit hit and miss coz they just stamp them out  with out close attention to pin alignment.
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.


Ducati Scotty

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Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 10:59:50 am
Ace told us a while back that crank alignment was key to eliminating excess vibration in the old Fireball.  Here's hoping you're back on the road soon.

Scott


ace.cafe

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Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 02:26:15 pm
There could be a variety of issues at play here, so it would be good to hear what the mechanic says happened to it.

1)There could be an oil starvation problem from some sort of blockage.
2)The big end of the con-rod, which is supposed to be hardened to serve as the outer bearing race, might have not been hardened enough, and eventually wore out.
3) The big end bearing rollers might have had hardness issues too. If not hard enough, they will also wear out.
4) The clearance from race to rollers in the big end bearing assembly may have been set too wide, causing eventual failure. These roller bearings need very tight clearances, that are very precisely set at assembly time.
5) The crankpin itself might have been soft on the surface, causing accelerated wear.
6)The engine may have been assembled with the crank too far out of true, and the resulting vibrations and misalignments may have eventually caused the bearing failures.
7)There may have been some kind of abrasive grit from somewhere that got in the oil and didn't get trapped by the filter, or maybe there was an oil break-down problem from heat or something.

If it is apart for a big end bearing job, you definitely want to put new main bearings in the engine too. Quality ones of known source that are for sure not counterfeits.

The problem with the crank assembly that your mechanic mentioned does seem to have some basis in fact. The varying degrees of "true-ness" of the crank from one Bullet to the next does seem to be evident. These bikes are not inherently bad vibrators. They can be very smooth, if the crank is trued well. So, I hypothesize that if you have a Bullet which is doing a lot of vibrating, and your engine mount bolts and head steady are tight, then you likely have a "less than optimally trued crank", and may expect some future bearing issues at a shorter time than other Bullets might see.

Regarding the big end issues, it has been occasionally seen in the AVL(which shares the same basic crank construction) that some of the con-rod big ends were not hard enough to serve as the bearing race, and they crapped out early.  Sometimes the crankpin showed the lack of hardness problem, instead. Sometimes the race-to-roller clearance was not right. This is a known issue with AVL, so it's possible that it might also occasionally be seen in the UCE as a carry-over of the crank production methods.

Another thing that the UCE crank shares with the AVL crank is the method of construction and truing during production. You can only buy the whole crank/rod/bearing assembly as a complete set. They build them that way. I don't want to get into why they build them that way.

 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 02:29:04 pm by ace.cafe »
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Royalista

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Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 07:53:41 pm
Hope you're back in the saddle soon and without losing an arm and a leg for the repair.  ;)

It would be interesting if you compared your experiences with Ace's post here above. Whether it originated in the construction or through pollution of the oil. Was there a picture of the damage?

Good luck.
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AussieDave

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Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 11:11:45 pm
Thanks for your commiseration fellas .
 Ace   What you say is pretty much in accord with what I'm hearing from this Brit bike bloke . He's not my mechanic yet , but the dad of one of my workmates  and at age 70 odd still does bikes as a hobby coz its been his life ! A good bloke to know! I have only just got the bike home and it will be a little while before I have the time to pull her apart . One question , apparently there is a roller bearing on the cam side but a plain bronze journal on the drive side , which seems kinda weird to me ?
May consider Hitchcock s crank like roaland
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 12:42:45 am
  Sounds like the bike is in good hands Dave..... Let us know.

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AussieDave

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Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 01:47:54 am
Yeah GHG ! I think so too. Might be able to sneak a few mods in while we're at it !  :)
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.


ace.cafe

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Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 02:10:18 am
The main bearings are roller bearings, with the drive side main bearing being a NU305 roller bearing and the drive side output bearing is a 6305 ball bearing, just like the old Iron Barrel engines use on the drive side.
Apparently the timing side roller might be different than the Iron Barrel, because they don't mention the number for it. I don't see any bronze journal in there on the crank.
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Arizoni

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Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 03:48:45 am
AussieDave

This is one of the new (2009 +) UCE engines isn't it?
Jim
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AussieDave

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Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 04:51:36 am
Yes it is mate . A 2010 built g5 with just shy of 20000 k on the clock . He may have been referring to an earlier model - I haven't even Opened the workshop manual
Yet to check what I have to work through .
 Thanks for the link Danny . Much appreciated .
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.


Roeland

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Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 05:35:07 am
We got all the parts and closed the engine block yesterday. We used locally sourced bearings :
1.TAF 354520   (IKO needle roller bearing)
2. 6305 ZZC3E NS7S 304   (NSK ball bearing)
3. NU 305 EWC3   (NSK cylindrical roller bearing)
Please note that the outside diameter of the inner sleeve of the bearing on the crankshaft is smaller than the factory bearing as this bearing has one extra ball bearing. I unfortunately did not see the imported conrod - neither the existing one as the parts went straight to the engineering shop and all we had to do is assemble the lot. Please do not rely solely on the RE workshop manual - this turned out difficult and inaccurate to follow. We took many reference pictures along the way. Hopefully next weekend we can finalise the engine.