Author Topic: Broken gear teeth found in primary  (Read 5425 times)

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Buckeroo

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on: September 01, 2013, 04:28:44 pm
I may have found what went clang during a kick start.  There are two broken teeth that look like they came from the gears that connect the crank shaft to the sprag clutch.  I have not located which gear yet, as that means removing the inner primary case to get at the back cover at the es motor.  I have read many threads on the sprag and it appears that it is very easy to break either the sprag or one of the transfer gears.

My questions are:
1)If I do nothing, will the more teeth bust off like dominoes falling due to the constant connection to the crank shaft?
2) will the use of the electric start break off more teeth?  I have not used the es in a while because of electrical issues.  That is on the list to repair.
3) Is there an AVL inner primary replacement available with out the es riser?  I don't want to do tapping and machining to adopt an older style Inner primary.  My machine skills are not that good.
4) If I have to keep the inner primary as is, and the gears have to be replaced, then will an air rachet remove the torqued inner nuts without special tools?
5) I read somewhere about a replacement Ignition module for lean burn engines.  I'm still unclear if this is a lean burn or not.  Can any body tell me?  And, if so, what do I order to replace the module to a green one?  If not a LB, will the green module help?

I am not looking forward to pulling out the clutch.  The thing that bothers me about all this possible replacement is that it can happen again very easily. 
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb


tooseevee

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Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 06:54:56 pm
I may have found what went clang during a kick start.  There are two broken teeth that look like they came from the gears that connect the crank shaft to the sprag clutch.  I have not located which gear yet, as that means removing the inner primary case to get at the back cover at the es motor.  I have read many threads on the sprag and it appears that it is very easy to break either the sprag or one of the transfer gears.

My questions are:
1)If I do nothing, will the more teeth bust off like dominoes falling due to the constant connection to the crank shaft?
2) will the use of the electric start break off more teeth?  I have not used the es in a while because of electrical issues.  That is on the list to repair.
3) Is there an AVL inner primary replacement available with out the es riser?  I don't want to do tapping and machining to adopt an older style Inner primary.  My machine skills are not that good.
4) If I have to keep the inner primary as is, and the gears have to be replaced, then will an air rachet remove the torqued inner nuts without special tools?
5) I read somewhere about a replacement Ignition module for lean burn engines.  I'm still unclear if this is a lean burn or not.  Can any body tell me?  And, if so, what do I order to replace the module to a green one?  If not a LB, will the green module help?

I am not looking forward to pulling out the clutch.  The thing that bothers me about all this possible replacement is that it can happen again very easily.

           Those are pieces of the sprag clutch.

            #1.  Yes. It'll just get worse if you don't have the whole thing repaired/replaced.

             #2  Yes. Same as #1 above.

             #3   I doubt it very much.

              #4  I don't believe an air ratchet is necessary if you properly lock the engine from turning over.

               #5  Yes. All AVLs are Lean Burns. AVL is the Austrian engineering Firm that developed the Lean Burn engine for RE. Their whole name is Anstalt fur Verbrennung skraftmaschinen List.

                Call CMW customer assistance to talk about the green module. They will ask for your VIN & will send you one for free.           

                 Here's a blown up sprag clutch:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cgYRI4BD_yo/Tc1m7LxHmEI/AAAAAAAAAC8/6zzfB70w4nM/s320/14%2Bwhat%252527s%2Bleft%2Bof%2Bsprag%2Bclutch.JPG&imgrefurl=http://handysnaks.blogspot.com/2011/05/slight-diversion-whilst-waiting-for.html&h=1200&w=1600&sz=141&tbnid=hGbqaC46VN4V6M:&tbnh=91&tbnw=121&zoom=1&usg=__0BLflksQCJZajxFJbO5RSgGcp_0=&docid=1A63V7qgAQ_Z9M&sa=X&ei=334jUunGLtXQsASMsYCgAw&ved=0CEwQ9QEwBQ&dur=578#imgdii=hGbqaC46VN4V6M%3A%3B0iS4bdV6HiqgGM%3BhGbqaC46VN4V6M%3A

            This is why I never use my electric start.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Buckeroo

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Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 07:42:20 pm
Thanks tooseevee.  I kind of knew the answer already, but was hoping some experienced people here could shed some light on just how critical this could be.  I have not used the electric start in a long time.  But I like to have it just in case.  The two broken teeth are from one of those gears, but I will discover when I pull it all apart.  I'm suffering from the "can of worms" syndrome.  This bike is full of them.  I believe this broke when I was attempting to kick start the bike, and there was a loud clank.  I thought I had bent a valve, but they appear okay.  Those two teeth are the first evidence of something gone bad.
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb


tooseevee

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Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 08:14:03 pm
Thanks tooseevee.  I kind of knew the answer already, but was hoping some experienced people here could shed some light on just how critical this could be.  I have not used the electric start in a long time.  But I like to have it just in case.  The two broken teeth are from one of those gears, but I will discover when I pull it all apart.  I'm suffering from the "can of worms" syndrome.  This bike is full of them.  I believe this broke when I was attempting to kick start the bike, and there was a loud clank.  I thought I had bent a valve, but they appear okay.  Those two teeth are the first evidence of something gone bad.

           They're not teeth from a gear. They're the little "things" that are held captive in the sprag clutch basket. Picture below:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Royal-Enfield-Sprag-Clutch-500cc-Classic-or-Electra-/10/!B4pwUDQCWk~%24%28KGrHqMOKjUEyKdE3iQkBMqp2kcm3w~~_35.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Royal-Enfield-Sprag-Clutch-500cc-Classic-Electra-/160995951012?pt%3DAU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories%26hash%3Ditem257c1b41a4&h=200&w=300&sz=7&tbnid=Dp1J0OzeA9upSM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__naYGQppMVCgnsyX9Wtx0cO1D3yM=&docid=X1qW2dydc3xnYM&sa=X&ei=5pAjUqvCFbKMigKY_oCYBA&ved=0CDYQ9QEwAw&dur=3843#imgdii=Dp1J0OzeA9upSM%3A%3BsdDW6ZKwMUzFxM%3BDp1J0OzeA9upSM%3A

         You have to face the fact that your sprag clutch is blown & will not get any better. (Sorry about this HUGE link).
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Arizoni

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Reply #4 on: September 01, 2013, 11:25:01 pm
Each one is called a sprag. :)
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


tooseevee

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Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 12:15:05 am
Each one is called a sprag. :)

           I KNEW I shoulda looked that up. Thanks.

            Here I am trying to advise a guy on his sprag clutch & I didn't look up sprag. I thought it was the noise they make when they self-destruct  :-[
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 12:18:23 am by tooseevee »
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


D the D

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Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 01:30:06 am
Makes me wonder why most motorcycles don't use a Bendix.  I don't think weight is a good argument when you look at all the gears in the sprag clutch setup.  Even Briggs, Honda, and Tecumseh use spiral gear engagement on mowers.
I just ordered a sprag clutch to replace my nonworking one before it comes apart.  I'll only use electric start if I kill it at a light.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 01:38:43 am by D the D »
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2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
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tooseevee

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Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 01:37:13 am
Makes me wonder why most motorcycles don't use a Bendix.  I don't think weight is a good argument when you look at all the gears in the sprag clutch setup.  Even Briggs, Honda, and Tecumseh use spiral gear engagement on mowers.
I just ordered a sprag to replace mine nonworking one before it comes apart.  I'll only use electric start if I kill it at a light.

            Could it be the amperage a Bendix solenoid requires?

             And, yes, that's what I save my ES for, too.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


D the D

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Reply #8 on: September 02, 2013, 01:41:26 am
            Could it be the amperage a Bendix solenoid requires?

             And, yes, that's what I save my ES for, too.

Amperage shouldn't be a problem with modern batteries.  I just added a picture of a Yamaha starter with Bendix clutch.  Bigger engines with higher compression manage without more gears in the starter gear train and the same output batteries.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH


Buckeroo

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Reply #9 on: September 02, 2013, 03:16:05 am
Opening a can of worms here.  I wonder what it would take to modify this pos with a bendix type engagement.  Not a machinist here, but I can do some things.  Seeing the Yamaha item above makes the juices flow.
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb


D the D

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Reply #10 on: September 02, 2013, 03:46:34 am
Opening a can of worms here.  I wonder what it would take to modify this pos with a bendix type engagement.  Not a machinist here, but I can do some things.  Seeing the Yamaha item above makes the juices flow.

Yep!  I've been picturing things in my head.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH


Ice

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Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 03:48:23 am
Makes me wonder why most motorcycles don't use a Bendix.  I don't think weight is a good argument when you look at all the gears in the sprag clutch setup.  Even Briggs, Honda, and Tecumseh use spiral gear engagement on mowers.
I just ordered a sprag clutch to replace my nonworking one before it comes apart.  I'll only use electric start if I kill it at a light.






 You thinking what I'm thinking ?
No matter where you go, there, you are.


D the D

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Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 03:56:11 am
You thinking what I'm thinking ?

Probably.  I wish I was a machinist with a shop to work in.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH


Ice

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Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 04:13:00 am
 Form Sprag in the US and Stieber of Germany are the worlds leaders in sprag technology and manufacture. Maybe they might have a type a sprag that decouples on kick back.
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Ice

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Reply #14 on: September 02, 2013, 04:13:28 am
Probably.  I wish I was a machinist with a shop to work in.

 I know a few.
No matter where you go, there, you are.