[Rolling Rat]

Okay.  I've enjoyed reading your posts & comments for the past year or so.  It's time I waded into the deep end.

Parked scooter last year because of VERY NOISY TOP-END.  Hammering type sound.  Cracked banjo bolts at head but no oil dribbles while idling. Disconnected fitting at bottom of oil lines--no oil while idling (blew out oil line just to be sure).  Too many projects.  Parked bike for the winter.  Royal Enfield Coat Rack.

Augusto 2013.  A bit-o-spare-time allocated for the neglected resident alien from Madras.  Charged battery.  Fired up.  Problem still there--no kidding.   Quill bolt has neoprene type bushing and seems intact.  Dribbles oil while idling if I loosen it.  Dribbles oil while not running if I loosen it.

No top end oil pressure from banjo fittings--still.  How can I verify that I have bottom end pressure?  Where would most likely problems occur?   Tech troubleshooting tips appreciated.  Please.

Some background info:
*  Local purchase/May 1999 Bullet 500
*  Low miles on bike
*  Stored intermittently for long periods of time (original owner a soldier)
*  Probably not well maintained before yours truly

Thank you for any input,

Dan

[High On Octane]

The oiling system on these bikes are pretty primitive, literally 50's British technology.  I recently had a similar problem but reverse, I had plenty of oil pressure in the feed pump, but the return pump wasn't pushing enough oil back into the oil tank causing ALL (but a few ounces) of the oil being ejected out of the crank breather.  It turned out that a piece of silicone had clogged 1 of the return oil passages AND the gasket wasn't cut properly for the timing cover and the holes in the gasket were actually blocking the return holes.  I drained all the oil and used compressed air to blow out all of the oil passages then replaced the oil and filter.  Completely fixed my problem.  I think that's where I'd start if I were you, it really didn't take all that long to do, BUT blowing out the oil passages will make a mess. 

Scottie

EDIT:  Also, pull the oil pump covers off of the timing cover to inspect that the pumps are still in good working order.

[ace.cafe]

Loosening the quill bolt when running should yield some pretty oil running out. If you took the quill bolt out, it would gush out.
There is not any real pressure developed in these engines like other engines. It's just oil flow.
All the oil will go thru this feed system and crankshaft first, and then the oil will drain down into the sump and be picked up by the return pump system, then pumped up to the head, and drain back thru the timing chest into the oil tank again.

If there is no leakage happening in the banjo lines to the head, then something is blocked in the return system, or the pump is no good, or there might be a broken drive stub on the drive spindle on the return side.

I'd suggest a complete inspection and cleaning of all the oil passages, and check the condition of the worm gear and drive spindle inside the timing chest(removal of timing cover required for this), and the condition and operation of the oil pumps.Check that the front sump drain plug(under the return oil pump vestibule) is the proper one with the screen on it, and that it is not screwed-in too far which might occlude the sump return passage to the oil pump vestibule.
Pay close attention to the banjo housings which often get fully clogged with sludge that prevents oil from flowing. Make sure they are all clean and clear.

[Blltrdr]

Check that the front sump drain plug(under the return oil pump vestibule) is the proper one with the screen on it, and that it is not screwed-in too far which might occlude the sump return passage to the oil pump vestibule.

This is something all owners should do. I read about this on Hitchcock's forum years ago and decided to check mine. So you remove the front drain plug and look up inside the drain hole. I used a mirror and a flashlight to do the inspection. Once you find the hole you will see that the possibility exists for interference of the hole by the drain plug. Take a wire that has diameter that will fit into the oil passage and make a 90 degree bend so yo have about 3/8". Stick it up inside the drain plug and insert in oil passage. You will then make a mark on the wire on the outside surface of the case where your drain plug seats. Compare the distance, checking for interference. If you find there is interference add an extra washer depending on thickness till you have no more interference.

This was a significant thing to point out. Thanks Ace. As Ace also pointed out that this is a low pressure system so any blockages can cause problems.
 
By the way, when I did my check I found my drain plug was blocking the passage and had to add a thick washer to solve the problem.

[Kevin Mahoney]

When i first started selling these bikes I made some oil pressure guages that were part of the large quill type bolt on the side of the engine. My intention was to sell them. I decided not to because it would freak people out. The pressure can be as low as 2-3 pounds. As Ace points out it is about volume and not pressure in the iron barrel. In a car engine the oil passes through tight surfaces such as the engine bearings which are engineered to hold oil pressure. In the iron barrel it is not like that at all. It is more like having oil flow freely over the bearing. In the top end some pressure develops because the clearance of the rocker boxes is sort of close.
Checking the oil pump shaft adn worm nut for wear is also a good idea. Whenever you open up the timing cover you should always crack open the large nut in the middle of the timing cover to look for oil flow. Cracking one of the banjo bolts should also be done.

[Rolling Rat]

Thank you for the replies.  I have some time set aside Sunday to do the exploratory using your suggestions and will post findings next week.

[Rolling Rat]

Checked the clearance for the forward drain plug with screen--checked out okay. 

The lines running to the banjo bolts were clear as well as the housing the bolts fit into.  The fitting the duo lines screw into below is clear as well.  To clarify:  oil only bubbles from this fitting only sporadically.  I am assuming there is an oil feed problem because sometimes oil will not come out of this fitting for long periods of time(five minutes or more).  I believe that is what is causing the hammering noise I hear from the top end.  I believe I am chasing an intermittent problem--the loveliest kind.  Please confirm that I am supposed to see a steady, albeit not high pressure, flow from this fitting.

All x10 bolts to the timing cover have been removed as well as the quill bolt.  The cover rocks, sort of, but doesn't come off.  The exhaust  pipe is a tight tolerance near the oil filter housing but is not the problem.  I am not a small person but cannot remove the cover no matter how much I rock it or what words I use.  Any tips?  Safe pry point?

[ace.cafe]

There will never be a steady flow of oil from the oil return line.
It is a pulsing delivery of approximately 6 cc of oil every 12 rotations of the crank, and it is always mixed with air bubbles. This is an extremely low oil delivery system, which barely circulates the oil at idle speed.

You can carefully work the cover off, and pry it if you have to, but be careful to not destroy the gasket. The cover is engaged with the worm gear on the crankshaft with the paddle teeth of the oil pump drive spindle, and sometimes needs to be rotated out of engagement with the worm gear. While it can be removed without removing the exhaust system, I always find it easier to remove the exhaust system first.

Regarding an easy test to see if the "hammering" is top-end oiling related, just remove the rocker covers and pour some oil on the rockers to see if it stops the noise. Also, you can see if you can wiggle the rocker arms in their housings, to see if they are badly worn out. And you can also check to be sure that the lash caps are still on the valve stems, and have not been flung off at some time in the past.

Very rarely is a "hammering" noise coming from the rockers. They give tapping noises. "Hammering" noise is almost always from the rod bearing, or possibly crank bearings.

[Ice]

 I freaked out when my Bullet suddenly all at once developed a "hammering" noise in the top end during break in.

 Turns out I was wrong as the noise was tapping.

 Adjusting the valves brought it back down to the ticking it was before.

 Hopefully such is the case for you.

[Rolling Rat]

I checked the valve adjustment when the intermittent hammering first appeared.  Valves were okay. 

I understand the oil flow will be anemic at idle but what bothers me is the absence of flow for up to minutes at a time.  I suspect there may be a partial blockage somewhere so I'll give it another go later this week at removing the timing cover and check things out.  Will also inspect below the rocker covers if nothing is found up to that point.

Thanks for the patience and continued input.

Dan

[Rolling Rat]

Weekend update:

Removed timing cover.  I understand now the difficulty in removing the cover due to the tight interference between worm gear and gear on oil pump shaft.  I kicked engine slowly over and worked the cover off--patiently.  After cover removal I blew out oil passages and inspected. 

Findings:

1.  A little bit of threads are missing off the thread edge of worm gear.  Appears to have occurred during manufacture or initial fit.  The remainder of the worm gear appears to sufficiently engage the oil pump shaft.


2.  There is a loose fit while holding the quill bolt and seal in the worm gear cavity. 

3.  No debris present but gasket was a sloppy fit.

4.  It is not wise to take pictures with your wife's camera above a bucket of motor oil with oily hands.

I put a small o-ring on my oil squirt bottle and juiced up the top end thru the banjo bolt holes since it has been dry awhile.  Primed the oil pump, buttoned everything back up, cracked open the fitting on bottom of oil lines, kicked it over, and......now I know what normyl flow looks like.  Nice steady oil flow from fitting.  I gloated over it for a few seconds and was reaching for my wrench to tighten when....it stopped again.  Stopped bike, checked oil level, juiced top end again, and started.  Nothing.  Dang.

Will take it apart again later this week and take a close look at oil pump assembly and filter assembly as well.  Will recheck passages and blow more oil around the shop.  Will also check newspaper ads for a camera sale.

Questions:

1.  Is the damaged outer thread of the worm a concern?

2.  Is the quill bolt/seal assembly supposed to be a snug fit or is loose okay?

[Chasfield]

The worm drive threads look fine. The outer thread looks a bit wavy but this is because it is machined to the thickness of foil and distorts easily. The big problem is that the neoprene seal bit that sits on the quill in your last picture should actually be bonded to the inside of the worm nut! This is why your oil is blowing by and not getting to where it is needed. A new worm nut with bonded in seal would sort that out.

The same happened to my neoprene seal but I discovered the problem when it was still three quarters attached to the worm nut.

Earlier models used a drilled cork for a seal which, though crude, could be routinely replaced at oil change time. The drawback was that if you left a cork in too long and it started to break up, the bits went straight down the big end oil feed.

[ERC]

Chas is correct you'll have to replace the quill. It's a left hand thread to take it apart.   ERC

[Rolling Rat]

Now I follow--the seal is supposed to remain in the worm nut probably with a smooth tight fit when the quill bolt is installed (friction contact on inner part of seal, not outer, as the worm nut travels around quill).  No chance of that since the fit between the seal and worm nut is extremely loose.  I'm hoping that's why it's having trouble building pressure.  Strange--only 1600 miles on scoot.
 
Pete Snidal manual is showing #144452 as the number for the worm gear/seal.  Will order that plus timing cover gasket once I figure out where to source from.

We no longer have a RE dealer in the vicinity.  NField gear is showing "out of stock" for worm gear/seal with no online provision for backorder.  Will give them a call tomorrow to see what the kind of lead time I'm looking at.  Any alternatives if lead time is long term?  Roll the Ebay dice?  Get out my whittlin' tools?  Alternative supplier?  Shoot fire--would be nice to ride before the weather turns.

[Chasfield]

I have a theory that excess oil pressure rather than any kind of wear is what causes the neoprene to detach from the worm nut.

Under the same excess oil pressure, the old style cork had nowhere to go and would happily re-seat itself.

This is another reason to run the engine at minimum revs until the oil is warmed through and consider running a lighter engine oil in the depths of winter.

[ERC]

Not to screw up CMW but Hitchcocks has them in stock if your in a hurry.   ERC

[Rolling Rat]

CMW verified by phone they had some worm gears in stock.  Order placed for that and a few other general maintenance items.  Wife is enjoying her new camera.

Won't be able to install new gear for maybe a week or so.  Will post results after I do.  Pretty sure Chasfield is correct about pressure not being able to build.  Not only was seal not bonded into gear but fit was extremely loose.  Will scope out any other possibilities again before I button it up.