Author Topic: New C5 - Status and Idle problem (?)  (Read 3216 times)

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i.candide

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on: August 04, 2013, 01:47:05 pm
I took delivery of Rocinante on July 2nd with 15 miles on the clock and a full tank of gas. The dealership was kind enough to isolate the side stand switch for me.

The first weekend, the Bosch plug was swapped out for the NGK iridium, the headlamp jumper was removed, and nuts and bolts tightened. All's right with the world - Time on Rocinante is idyllic.

The second weekend was the first service at the dealership. When I picked up my charger, the service department explained that when I look in the sight glass, I will not see oil, but when I tilted slightly, oil appeared to fill the sight glass completely. That's the way Bullets like it. -Okay...

The third weekend all major nuts and bolts were checked and tightened.

Last weekend major nuts and bolts were checked - none needed attention.

On August 2nd, Rocinante was refueled with 776 miles on the clock. She is averaging 58.87mpg. Most of the miles is my commute, some are from running chores. I started the break-in low and slow, staying under 45 mph. After the 300 mile service, steadily picked up speed. Most of the commute is 40-45 mph. There is a 2 to 3 mile stretch where I have gotten up to 55 to 60 mph - indicated (I believe the speedometer is 2-3mph high). The engine has smoothed out remarkably.

But after the first service, I have detected a change is Rocinante's reaction to afternoon traffic:

 During the morning commute (around 4:30, 65 degree Fahrenheit, approximately 16 miles), traffic is light to nonexistent, and the thump is crisp and throttle response is beautiful. My steed seems ready and more than willing to go the max.

 However, during the afternoon commute (around 2:00, 85+ degrees Fahrenheit) traffic is moderate to heavy, and the thump is softer and a chuff - not cough, but a seeming compression release with each cylinder detonation - develops and idle becomes erratic - somewhere between normal, accelerated, high, and 'oh, my gosh I should shift up' even though I'm standing still at a stoplight. The heat from the cylinder is anywhere between normal, hot, and so hot I can feel it rising through the unlined denim jacket I wear. When the cylinder is at its hottest, the idle could be from high to 'oh, my gosh'.

Yesterday, I addressed my concern with the service department. I was told that the first thing I should do is upgrade the fuel to premium and see if the characteristics of the engine changes. - huhh???

Please advise. Could the oil too low? Could the ECU still be learning? Could there be some other problem?
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GSS

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Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 02:06:42 pm
Might be a bit of carbon build up. Clean the plug and add Seafoam to the gas. That will probably fix it. You could also turn up the idle a tiny bit.  It is the large copper screw on TOP of the throttle body and NOT the little one on the side. Ignore the last line....I didn't get through all the fine print before replying to the post :D
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 10:31:19 pm by GSS »
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ScooterBob

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Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 02:30:48 pm
I took delivery of Rocinante on July 2nd with 15 miles on the clock and a full tank of gas. The dealership was kind enough to isolate the side stand switch for me.

The first weekend, the Bosch plug was swapped out for the NGK iridium, the headlamp jumper was removed, and nuts and bolts tightened. All's right with the world - Time on Rocinante is idyllic.

The second weekend was the first service at the dealership. When I picked up my charger, the service department explained that when I look in the sight glass, I will not see oil, but when I tilted slightly, oil appeared to fill the sight glass completely. That's the way Bullets like it. -Okay...

The third weekend all major nuts and bolts were checked and tightened.

Last weekend major nuts and bolts were checked - none needed attention.

On August 2nd, Rocinante was refueled with 776 miles on the clock. She is averaging 58.87mpg. Most of the miles is my commute, some are from running chores. I started the break-in low and slow, staying under 45 mph. After the 300 mile service, steadily picked up speed. Most of the commute is 40-45 mph. There is a 2 to 3 mile stretch where I have gotten up to 55 to 60 mph - indicated (I believe the speedometer is 2-3mph high). The engine has smoothed out remarkably.

But after the first service, I have detected a change is Rocinante's reaction to afternoon traffic:

 During the morning commute (around 4:30, 65 degree Fahrenheit, approximately 16 miles), traffic is light to nonexistent, and the thump is crisp and throttle response is beautiful. My steed seems ready and more than willing to go the max.

 However, during the afternoon commute (around 2:00, 85+ degrees Fahrenheit) traffic is moderate to heavy, and the thump is softer and a chuff - not cough, but a seeming compression release with each cylinder detonation - develops and idle becomes erratic - somewhere between normal, accelerated, high, and 'oh, my gosh I should shift up' even though I'm standing still at a stoplight. The heat from the cylinder is anywhere between normal, hot, and so hot I can feel it rising through the unlined denim jacket I wear. When the cylinder is at its hottest, the idle could be from high to 'oh, my gosh'.

Yesterday, I addressed my concern with the service department. I was told that the first thing I should do is upgrade the fuel to premium and see if the characteristics of the engine changes. - huhh???

Please advise. Could the oil too low? Could the ECU still be learning? Could there be some other problem?

The MOST LIKELY cause for this is that the engine is finally getting warm enough for the temp sensor to lean the mixture. We know that the mixture is lean to death for an air-cooled engine to pass "meeshuns" - and any adjustments should be made when the engine is nearly hot enough to melt the fins off the head. Although the programming in the ECU is SUPPOSED to be linear - it isn't. It's "lab perfect" .... which, of course has nothing to do with real world driving conditions of cool mornings and hot afternoons. I'd also check the intake for air leaks, etc, just as a precaution - this could lean the mixture and cause that erratic, hunting idle as well ......
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i.candide

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Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 02:36:23 pm
GSS: Thank you for the reply. Please help me understand the reasoning behind your advise.

If the problem is carbon buildup, would not the cylinder ping, especially when hot?

If the idle is normal when the air temperature is 65 degrees Fahrenheit and normal to high when 85+ degrees, how would turning up the idle improve the situation?
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i.candide

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Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 02:44:12 pm
ScooterBob: Thank you for your reply. Would the air leak be something I can hear, or is there a procedure for determining if there truly is an air leak, or do I just start tightening and torquing nuts and bolts? I'm at a loss at how to proceed with this type of operation.
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High On Octane

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Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 03:41:09 pm
Might be a bit of carbon build up. Clean the plug and add Seafoam to the gas. That will probably fix it. You could also turn up the idle a tiny bit.  It is the large copper screw on TOP of the throttle body and NOT the little one on the side.

The MOST LIKELY cause for this is that the engine is finally getting warm enough for the temp sensor to lean the mixture. We know that the mixture is lean to death for an air-cooled engine to pass "meeshuns" - and any adjustments should be made when the engine is nearly hot enough to melt the fins off the head. Although the programming in the ECU is SUPPOSED to be linear - it isn't. It's "lab perfect" .... which, of course has nothing to do with real world driving conditions of cool mornings and hot afternoons. I'd also check the intake for air leaks, etc, just as a precaution - this could lean the mixture and cause that erratic, hunting idle as well ......

I was going to explain all this, but I'll just let Wiki explain it for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air%E2%80%93fuel_ratio

As for testing for an air leak, idle the bike at operating temperature and spray carb cleaner all around the mounting tube/flange of the carb.  If at any point the engine starts to race or completely dies you have an air leak.

Scottie
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barenekd

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Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 08:09:19 pm
As for the oil lever, the bike should be level laterally and you should show oil on the sight glass. I am assuming you have been checking it on the center stand. Check it where you normally park it, then spin it 180o and check it on the other side. You can average the two sightings out to get the true level. I doubt that the oil level, as it is, is causing a heating problem. But you should keep the true level between the lines, or a little higher. If you don't get any oil you need to add some, but do it carefully as it doesn't take a lot to overfill it. A half pint will go a long way on the sight glass!
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Royalista

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Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 08:50:51 pm
The second weekend was the first service at the dealership. When I picked up my charger, the service department explained that when I look in the sight glass, I will not see oil, but when I tilted slightly, oil appeared to fill the sight glass completely. That's the way Bullets like it. -Okay...

This gave me the jiffers. Parked on the centerstand you must see oil, in between the two bars. There is a level difference at the bottom of the pan, so if you tilt it slightly to the right the oil level in the glass may rise a little. You need to do that to ensure not to overfill the reservoir.
But nothing in the glass means not enough oil. Bad, very bad.  ::)

As for temperature, these machines run in Indian traffic all day from icy cold to bloody hot. Given oil they can take a lot. I would make sure I'm terribly sure before fiddling with that screw, less I might get screwed if you get my drift.  ;)
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ScooterBob

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Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 09:13:02 pm
The dealer was correct about the COLD oil level. I did some pretty extensive study and research on this single item. The cold oil level right at the bottom of the glass WILL give you an oil level that is in the middle when the oil is hot. Any more htan that, and you are going to be wiping it all out of the airbox, as crankcase windage in these engines is barely controlled. The GOOD news to all that is - the lifters will clatter long before the rest of the roller bearing engine is even close to expiring .... and I've seen a couple that have had the hell and be damned run out of them with about a half a pint that drained out of the sump .... and they had no apparent damage. The rule here is DON'T overfill it - unless you LIKE mopping out the airbox on the bike .....  ;)
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GSS

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Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 10:28:49 pm
GSS: Thank you for the reply. Please help me understand the reasoning behind your advise.

If the problem is carbon buildup, would not the cylinder ping, especially when hot?

If the idle is normal when the air temperature is 65 degrees Fahrenheit and normal to high when 85+ degrees, how would turning up the idle improve the situation?

I missed the high idle part....don't mess with that idle setting.  SooterBob is right about the "hunting/surging".

High temperatures, slow traffic, plus an overheated air cooled unbroken engine (especially with the famously tight Indian tolerances) is also not an uncommon cause for engines idling a bit rough and threatening to stall.......been there before.

This should settle down. Throw in some Seafoam instead of looking for mythical better gas. Lugging the engine at slow rpms as seems apparent in slow traffic can foul up plugs......folks running at low rpms do get more carbon on the plugs.
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Arizoni

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Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 12:14:14 am
ScooterBob is probably right about the oil temperature effecting the engine idle but I haven't seen that on my 2011 G5 when riding in city traffic with an air temperature of 108*F.

I suspect one thing that is contributing to the higher idle rpm is just the fact that the engine is becoming more 'broke in'.  The clearances have increased and things have smoothed out.

Back during my bikes break in it did a lot of 'hunting' for the proper idle speed and I found that by adjusting the idle speed down just a trifle it stopped doing that.

The idle speed is adjusted by turning the large brass screw that is located down in a well on top of the throttle body.  It is a slotted screw that needs a really big screwdriver to fit the slot.
Turning it clockwise slows the idle speed and it doesn't take much to get the engine out of this "hunting" mode.  Maybe 1/16 to 1/8 of a turn.
Jim
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wildbill

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Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 12:48:03 am
just a thought check that your throttle position sensor connector is still tight and snug. located within an inch or so from the positive terminal battery post.
my old c5 had this drama


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Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 11:15:27 am
Hi i.candide,

I used to use the iridium plug, but found my engine was running hot. I think the iridium plug gets too hot.

I switched to the ngkbpr8es because it gets hotter here in Australia. I found the engine never gets hot after the switch. Just something to think about.

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JVS

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Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 11:55:33 am
I would recommend the BPR6ES as many others members are using the same. However, it is up to you. 8ES is on the colder side. I'm in Australia myself and have ridden for longer periods in ambient temperatures of 40ºC or more..even 44ºC i.e. 104-113ºF without any problems.  :-X

I also agree with wildbill's post. If the spark plug is okay-ish, you should check the throttle position sensor area for any looseness of the connection. Following are a set of screenshots from singhg5's TPS video on YouTube that depicts the TPS connection. Don't worry about the paperclip  ;)




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i.candide

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Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 01:41:13 am
Thank you - all - for your suggestions.

Rocinante now sports a non-iridium NGK plug. She also has 4 oz of seafoam in a full tank of regular gas. I could not detect an air leak in the intake, and the usual weekend round of checking and tightening all accessable nuts and bolts has been done.

For the first time she got a good cleaning and an application of Pledge furniture wax. Next weekend is ACF50 copiously and throughout.

I really like the group here at the forum. It's homesome.

Again, thank you!

i.candide

I
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 04:11:12 am by i.candide »
Romancing the life
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