[Joel-in-dallas]

I know the neutral finder is a feature of the old iron barrels. Do you guys think it was something that should have been maintained? From reading I find it touted about being able to get back into neutral faster and easier in stop and go traffic. Also, some old blurb about the neutral finder said it would put less strain on your clutch.

I am in Dallas and my traffic is pretty stop and go, city traffic. But at lights I get to a stop and go down to first and keep the clutch engaged. I don't bother trying to get in neutral, so when the light changes I have to then get in gear.

I am not putting significant extra strain on the motorcycle by staying at stops in first gear with the clutch in, am I?

Certainly nothing in MSF class talked about this.

[JVS]

Considering this is the UCE..without a seperate gearbox/transmission case, I'm not sure how they could've incorporated the neutral finder on the LHS..but it would be rather cool! Maybe ace.cafe and other members can provide us with more info on this.

And even though it is a wet-clutch, I still put the bike in neutral before coming to a stop at the lights. I'm just paranoid about riding the clutch  I know, some might say it is unsafe (to be not in first), as you never know..a lost case might back-hand you with their rolling cage. I try to be extra careful at the lights..scanning the mirrors more to judge if some car is coming too fast..that's when I shift it in to first and get ready to take-off haha. (Not advising this, though!)

Hopefully other members will have a better in-sight regarding this. I don't think that a wet-clutch will be getting too 'strained' with some stop and go stuff 

[ace.cafe]

The neutral finder is a neat little feature, but it's only on the 4-speed Albion gearboxes. The 5-speed doesn't have it, and the overall performance of the 5-speed box greatly outweighs its lack of a neutral finder.

Regarding holding in the clutch at a stop light, this is a big "no no" for the iron Barrel and AVL models. The clutch can drag enough to get very hot, and the multi-section clutch release rod can get hot enough to friction weld itself together, and this has been seen to happen. If the clutch drags and gets too hot, the steel plates warp and the drag gets worse until it can't get neutral anymore, and it also might slip.
So, with the Iron Barrel and AVL we advise to not hold the clutch in for any longer time than it takes to put it in gear. Just a few seconds.

I haven't really looked at the UCE clutch yet, so I can't make a comment on whether this is not an issue with them.

[mattsz]

Well, the MSF two-day rider safety course isn't bike specific, of course, but at my class they taught us to *always* keep the bike in first gear with the clutch in at a stop, so you can get away from trouble sneaking up behind you.  I'm talking, if they could have whacked our hands with rulers to drive the point home, they would have.  We were tested on our ability to remember to do it, and to do it.

Questions came up from "experienced" riders about abusing the clutch over the weekend, and the instructors insisted that it was a non-issue - they said that they were sure with what we were doing, we couldn't hurt the bikes' wet clutches.  Either it's true, or they just didn't care (here in Maine, you can't use your own bike for the basic course; the bikes they provided weren't much).

I don't have a real clear picture in my head of how the clutch works vs. a typical car clutch.  I assume that the bikes oil-bathed clutch plates will last a long time (that's what the MSF guys said), and that they only wear while they're actually slipping against each other.  But are there parts that wear as long as I'm holding the clutch in, like a "throwout" bearing on a single-plate auto clutch or some other such?

[ace.cafe]

Well, the MSF two-day rider safety course isn't bike specific, of course, but at my class they taught us to *always* keep the bike in first gear with the clutch in at a stop, so you can get away from trouble sneaking up behind you.  I'm talking, if they could have whacked our hands with rulers to drive the point home, they would have.  We were tested on our ability to remember to do it, and to do it.

Questions came up from "experienced" riders about abusing the clutch over the weekend, and the instructors insisted that it was a non-issue - they said that they were sure with what we were doing, we couldn't hurt the bikes' wet clutches.  Either it's true, or they just didn't care (here in Maine, you can't use your own bike for the basic course; the bikes they provided weren't much).

I don't have a real clear picture in my head of how the clutch works vs. a typical car clutch.  I assume that the bikes oil-bathed clutch plates will last a long time (that's what the MSF guys said), and that they only wear while they're actually slipping against each other.  But are there parts that wear as long as I'm holding the clutch in, like a "throwout" bearing on a single-plate auto clutch or some other such?

Maybe nothing will happen to the clutch on a modern Jap bike, but an old Brit clutch ain't gonna take that kind of treatment. No matter whether it's Norton or Triumph or BSA or Enfield or Vincent, or whatever. Vintage Brit clutches won't handle it.

As for the modern UCE clutch system, I would have to look at the layout more closely. I don't own one, and the one we have to work on is at Chumma's place.

Regarding the part of the release mechanism, or "throwout", yes there definitely are parts that will wear when you hold the clutch in. In the Iron Barrel, I mentioned that the "throwout" rod is multi-section and it can get so hot that it literally welds the ends together from friction heat. I'm not exaggerating. Also on the Iron Barrel, the clutch plate stack has very little room between plates when it is held in, and the plates are rarely perfectly flat. This causes drag which heats up the plates and they warp. This makes the drag worse. Eventually you can't get it into gear, and it possibly might also not hold well enough, so it may then slip, too.  If it drags badly enough when you are holding it in with the bike in gear, it might start creeping you into the intersection when the clutch starts grabbing all by itself from heat drag. Pull on the brake, and then it just heats up even more. Then it needs some parts replaced. The primary oil isn't enough to prevent this from happening.

I would suggest that the MSF people might know that their MSF bikes won't have an issue, but they clearly know nothing about vintage bikes and their issues.

[Chuck D]

If you're sitting at a red light where would you "go" anyhow? You either have another vehicle stopped right in front of you or if you're at the front of the line, you'd have to move into cross traffic.
This particular MSF nugget of wisdom always seemed a little silly and overblown to me.
Chuck.

[Rich Mintz]

Certainly with regard to where I ride, I'm with Chuck D. In city riding, almost always when I'm stopped in traffic, there's literally nowhere I could go. (Corollary: there's nothing that could suddenly materialize and hit me, since there's nowhere for it to come from.) In that kind of situation, there's no point to staying in gear. Common sense trumps MSF dogma -- even as a relatively new rider I know that much.

It's a little different in other situations. When I'm the lead car stopped at a light in traffic on a divided highway (like US 1 in New Jersey), I stay in gear. Similarly, when I stop at a light and the next car behind me is a good distance behind and still moving, I stay in gear and watch him, just in case he doesn't slow down. Never had any trouble but why not be prepared?

[mattsz]

Ace - my bike's clutch has been funky since new: as I release, while the clutch slips, the bike surges.  If it's a normal start, the time the clutch is actually slipping is very short and I don't hardly notice it.  If I'm slow riding, tight turns in the parking lot, etc, and I let it slip a little longer to help keep my speed lower than first gear at idle provides, I can notice the surge more and it occasionally messes with my balance.  Warped plates?  Some members here suggested that there weren't any circumstances where I should be letting the clutch slip more than the milliseconds it takes to get the bike under way, and that I'm ruining my own clutch, but I guess I can't do anything about the way I slow-ride.

Other guys: where would you go?  If you're first in line at a stop, maybe nowhere.  But if you're 5th in line?  I don't know, maybe "lane split" and slide up a few slots next to the line of cars and let the car that was in front of you take the hit?  Maybe it's just overcaution, but that's what they're teaching.  Rich, I don't really see the difference between the situations described in your two paragraphs - a car could be a good distance behind and still moving in city riding just as easily as on a divided highway.

But we're hijacking the thread with this discussion.  The upshot for me is, with the riding I do, I don't end up sitting around much, so I usually stay in gear.  The lights around me all have road sensors anyway, half of which don't detect my bike at all, so if there's no other cars around, the light won't change for me at all.  I wait a few seconds, look around carefully and make sure there's a seriously safe gap in cross traffic, then run the light.  So not a lot of waiting around.  (BTW, this was the advice I got from a local law enforcement officer who rides when I asked him how he deals with the problem.  So far, I have been observed doing this by one officer, and... he ignored me completely!  ).  Ok, end hijack...

[JVS]

But we're hijacking the thread with this discussion.  The upshot for me is, with the riding I do, I don't end up sitting around much, so I usually stay in gear.  The lights around me all have road sensors anyway, half of which don't detect my bike at all, so if there's no other cars around, the light won't change for me at all.  I wait a few seconds, look around carefully and make sure there's a seriously safe gap in cross traffic, then run the light.  So not a lot of waiting around.  (BTW, this was the advice I got from a local law enforcement officer who rides when I asked him how he deals with the problem.  So far, I have been observed doing this by one officer, and... he ignored me completely!  ).  Ok, end hijack...

I have encountered this numerous times during my riding and I have learned the hard way to not run the lights. My luck was so bad that I always got stuck on the busiest lights without them changing one bit..despite knowing that the sensors (induction loops) were present in the road. I've had two really close-calls when I ran the lights.

The key is to position your bike correctly over the induction loops. And it has always worked for me since then. You can look up 'signal induction loops' on Google Images and find out for yourself how they look like and how they are set-up on the road. Following are a couple of examples -





Your bike is all steel frame basically and possesses/transfers the inductive properties to alter the magnetic field over the said sensors or loops. Just position your bike within those loops/boxes, but avoid the middle (The signal never changes for me when I am in the middle). If you can't see the loops on the road, what I tend to do is to stop the bike approximately 1 to 1½ feet behind the stop line, either on the left of the lane or the right..but not the middle. That way you ensure that at least some of your bike's metal is over those inductive loops.

Give that a go..hopefully it should work for you, as it did for me.

[ace.cafe]

Ace - my bike's clutch has been funky since new: as I release, while the clutch slips, the bike surges.  If it's a normal start, the time the clutch is actually slipping is very short and I don't hardly notice it.  If I'm slow riding, tight turns in the parking lot, etc, and I let it slip a little longer to help keep my speed lower than first gear at idle provides, I can notice the surge more and it occasionally messes with my balance.  Warped plates?  Some members here suggested that there weren't any circumstances where I should be letting the clutch slip more than the milliseconds it takes to get the bike under way, and that I'm ruining my own clutch, but I guess I can't do anything about the way I slow-ride.

Well, each person gets the "feel" of their clutch on their bike individually, and I'm not going to try to second-guess your methods that work for you.
However, the general action involves a transition from stop to motion, using the slipping plates of the clutch to make the transition. Whether it takes a few milliseconds or a second or two,  any of that is fine as long as it works out smoothly for you.

The "surging" may not be the clutch, and that could be the behavior of the fuel injection at that particular condition which could be "surging". And this is something that you might have to deal with if your bike behaves that way. I have heard tales of some of these EFI bikes having "surging" issues at low throttle positions. It might be a mapping issue.

And as I previously mentioned, I'm not at all certain that the modern UCE clutches suffer from the same plagues as the early model clutches. So, I'm not trying to set any rules about this for anybody. Once I get some more "hands-on" experience with these UCE bikes as we move along with our performance project, then I'll be in a better position to talk about the details of the UCE clutch.

[GA-DK]

The only clutch failure I have ever had was in rush-hour traffic in Birmingham, Ala. riding a then new Honda 450.  The end of the clutch cable came off.  Try riding a bike with the inner core wrapped around your left hand.  It ain't fun.  That can happen with any bike reguardless of clutch design.  Cure is a small cylinder with cross hole for cable and a setscrew along the axis.  At least it will get you home.  A break in the cable rather than just a failure of the solder joint is another problem.  My problem could have been caused by too much clutch use, poor part quality, or poor lubrication; although, those cables had a grease fitting on the outer sheath.  GA-DK

[mattsz]

Well, if nobody objects, I'll continue... 

Re. traffic lights: I know about the loops.  In my riding area, most of the lights work without any trouble or special aim on my part.  The rest don't seem to work no matter where I put the bike, and I've tried all sorts of positioning.  JVS, I can't remember where you live, but where I am in midcoast Maine, we're not talking about a ton of traffic all the time (except on some of the main roads in summer - tourist traffic!  I know how to avoid it  ).  Almost all of the lights that give me trouble are lights that were added to intersections in the past 10 or so years - before the lights, we managed fine without them.  So the light running I'm talking about is at the same intersections where not too long ago there were stop signs, and during slack hours, I treat them as such.  The light stays green for the main road, and I sit and wait for another car to come behind me or across from me to change the light in my favor - at my morning commute time, this could easily be 5 minutes or longer.  Why the don't set the lights to flash (yellow for the main road, red for the side roads) is beyond me, but that's another rant...

Ace -
the EFI surging you talk about has been mentioned before, but I don't believe my "problem" is engine related.  The period of my surge pulses seems to be related to how fast the bike is rolling in 1st gear, and isn't affected by the engine rpm - it's roughly about 4 little "bumps" a second, for only as long as it takes me to fully release the clutch.  I never feel it at any time other than starting from a stand-still in 1st gear.

I've done a bit of experimentation to try to figure it out - if I ease the clutch so it's slipping but also driving the bike, I can change the throttle position, and engine rpm, without changing the bike speed.  In these instances, my surge remains constant regardless of the engine rpms.

If I'm very gently getting the bike moving, with light throttle, the surge is barely noticeable.  If I go for an aggressive quicker start with more throttle, the surge is much more prevalent - the pulse rate doesn't change, but it's a stronger surge.  It hasn't gotten any worse or better in the almost 3k miles and 10 months I've been riding it, so I'm calling it a quirk.  Clutch cable adjustment is fine, bike shifts fine... I've had people tell me I'm destroying my clutch by letting it slip (umm... isn't that its job?), but so far no one has told me that I shouldn't ride it in its current state...

[ace.cafe]

Ace -
the EFI surging you talk about has been mentioned before, but I don't believe my "problem" is engine related.  The period of my surge pulses seems to be related to how fast the bike is rolling in 1st gear, and isn't affected by the engine rpm - it's roughly about 4 little "bumps" a second, for only as long as it takes me to fully release the clutch.  I never feel it at any time other than starting from a stand-still in 1st gear.

I've done a bit of experimentation to try to figure it out - if I ease the clutch so it's slipping but also driving the bike, I can change the throttle position, and engine rpm, without changing the bike speed.  In these instances, my surge remains constant regardless of the engine rpms.

If I'm very gently getting the bike moving, with light throttle, the surge is barely noticeable.  If I go for an aggressive quicker start with more throttle, the surge is much more prevalent - the pulse rate doesn't change, but it's a stronger surge.  It hasn't gotten any worse or better in the almost 3k miles and 10 months I've been riding it, so I'm calling it a quirk.  Clutch cable adjustment is fine, bike shifts fine... I've had people tell me I'm destroying my clutch by letting it slip (umm... isn't that its job?), but so far no one has told me that I shouldn't ride it in its current state...

What you are describing sounds to me like it could be something we call "clutch shudder". There can be a variety of causes, such as uneven spring pressure, warped pressure plate, something uneven about the plate stack, or even something like a bearing problem on the input shaft, or something as simple as chain snatch from a flopping chain tension. Perhaps some other things too, which I may have failed to mention.

[High On Octane]

I do enjoy the neutral finder on my bike, but I'd MUCH rather have a transmission that shifted more accurately and consistently.  Most times I can't shift into 3rd gear unless I'm on it.  But if I get on it too hard and run out of 2nd too fast it won't shift to 3rd either.  I'm constantly double and triple clutching to get into 3rd.  Be happy your bike shifts accurately and doesn't actually need the neutral finder to get into neutral.

Scottie

Scottie

[Craig McClure]

I agree that Bikes should stay in gear at stoplights, UNLESS IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS NOT TO IN THE MANUAL: Urals need to be in Neutral at lights, Etc.  When you see in your mirror, an approaching motorist/bus failing to stop, You will be surprised how easily you will find an escape route. I had a car actually HIT the car in front of me (where I had been) after I climbed the curb to the sidewalk on my 72 Triumph Tiger. It would be wise to stop far enough behind the car ahead, to turn to either side or even sneak past.
  I would also like to give credit to Royal Enfield for its bright Neutral Light, & easy to find Neutral. It is better than any other bike I've owned. I also like the solid, positive confidence inspiring GEAR BOX on my 2010 G5 Deluxe.