Author Topic: Big Head Hi-Port Roller Rocker Fireball starts up!  (Read 9112 times)

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ace.cafe

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Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 01:34:04 pm
BW has a piston for his methanol use that is somewhere up around 13:1, which is appropriate for a methanol-fueled racing engine. The one we have for ethanol is not high enough compression for methanol.
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Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 03:05:18 pm
Ace - Do you have some monster compression pistons for the 350 blocks?  I've been thinking when I do the performance build next winter, that if I can get the right pistons for the job, I'd like to go with somewhere between 10.5-1 to 13-1 pistons with a single 36mm Mikuni and tune it for corn.  I still plan on sending my heads to you to work your magic and match the flow to the Conste cams.  All said and done, I want to run some 12.5 second 1/4 miles or better on the Blackhawk.  Even if that means I need to adapt a different rear swing to fit a fatter tire.  People already enjoy the Blackhawk, but I want that "wow" factor when I start it up and run it that makes people say "What have you done?!" and send goose bumps down everyone's veins standing within 50'.   ;D   It's been a long time waiting, and I would've never guessed it to be an RE Indian,  but I'm ready to build myself a full out race bike with a piece of the vintage past!   Maybe we can even talk about what it'd take to have the custom rockers built.  I have a year to save my pennies, let's see how many I can save!   ;)

Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Reply #17 on: September 11, 2013, 03:15:53 pm
Ace - Do you have some monster compression pistons for the 350 blocks?  I've been thinking when I do the performance build next winter, that if I can get the right pistons for the job, I'd like to go with somewhere between 10.5-1 to 13-1 pistons with a single 36mm Mikuni and tune it for corn.  I still plan on sending my heads to you to work your magic and match the flow to the Conste cams.  All said and done, I want to run some 12.5 second 1/4 miles or better on the Blackhawk.  Even if that means I need to adapt a different rear swing to fit a fatter tire.  People already enjoy the Blackhawk, but I want that "wow" factor when I start it up and run it that makes people say "What have you done?!" and send goose bumps down everyone's veins standing within 50'.   ;D   It's been a long time waiting, and I would've never guessed it to be an RE Indian,  but I'm ready to build myself a full out race bike with a piece of the vintage past!   Maybe we can even talk about what it'd take to have the custom rockers built.  I have a year to save my pennies, let's see how many I can save!   ;)

Scottie

We can design custom pistons specifically for your desires, and have them made up for you at the place that forges our pistons. They require a minimum order of 4 pistons.
I would have to send the jugs out for boring/honing, because Mondello's doesn't have a boring bar that's small enough for the 350 jugs. I also work with another high quality machine shop on the West Coast that does a lot of Ferrari work that might be able to do it.

We'd be happy to help you get your bike to where you want it. Most everything we do is custom, or semi-custom, so doing one-of-a-kind things is everyday work for us. But, there are some limitations, such as minimum order of 4 pistons, and stuff like that which gets imposed on us by suppliers.

Tom
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 03:23:38 pm by ace.cafe »
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Reply #18 on: September 11, 2013, 03:23:46 pm
4 piston minimum.....  That just means I'll have an extra set when the time comes!   ;)  Let me talk to my engine guy at work today, he's really good at building and tuning performance motors that are tuned for corn.  I'll get back to you and let you know what I'd like to see happen.  Thanks Tom!

Scottie
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D the D

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Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 09:23:10 pm
OMG!  :o
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ace.cafe

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Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 02:01:28 am
Okay, I'm in the mood for a little writing, so I'll give a little explanation about why this head is such a big step forward in Enfield performance.

First, Kevin's head is a "Big Head" casting from Hitchcock's, which is a faithful and quality reproduction of the highly sought-after vintage Enfield "Big Head". Only a small number of these were made, and they were mostly used on the "Fury" high performance model that was designed to compete against the BSA Gold Star on the track. It has a shaft rocker system built into the head, similar to the AVL, and it has a more down-draft port than the regular Bullet head, and larger valves too. So, it started out with a top-grade head with a lot of good performance features already on it. There were 2 port options for this head, small or large, and we requested the small port head so that we had more room to do the porting the way we wanted to.

Then, we had Mondello's do a "high port" job on this head, so that the already "more down-draft" port was made "even more down-draft", so that the approach angle to the valve was straighter for better flow with less turning. The port was enlarged to suit the much higher valve lift that was going to be a part of this project. The new custom valves were made with longer stems to allow them to be lifted higher, and we used our Ace "beehive" ultra-light valve springs and our Ace titanium retainers to cap off the valve gear. This gives us an ultra-light mass with extremely good control over the valve spring harmonics to allow the valve to faithfully follow the cam profile without losing contact or getting "spring surge" or "float". The head also got our other standard Ace features of thermal barrier coatings in the combustion chamber and exhaust port, etc, like we do with all the Fireballs.

The big improvement came with the hi-ratio roller rockers which we had custom built by one of the biggest roller rocker manufacturers for racing in the US. They make roller rockers for just about everything, including NASCAR and NHRA and anything that uses pushrods and rockers. We contacted them and asked for a custom job, and we got it.

The reason why this is such a big deal is that the Bullet has always been a "lift challenged" design since day one. The cams are located fairly close to the crankshaft seal boss in the timing chest, and there just isn't a lot of room for big cam lobes to fit down there. And the standard rockers are a 1:1 ratio, so there is no added lift imparted to the system with the rocker arms. Whatever the cam lobes give, that's all we normally would get. This limits the valve lift to a maximum of maybe around .440" as the largest I have ever heard of for valve lift in any Bullet. Most performance cams for the Bullet don't go over .400" lift, and many(such as our own Ace Magnum Cams) have lift that is less than .400" lift. The stock lift is .3125", and sometimes less if the cams are off-spec(which is common). With the Hi-Ratio Roller Rockers, we can impart a lift multiplier at the rocker, which multiplies the cam lift by the rocker ratio employed(1.45:1 in this case). So, we can take that .352" lift that the Ace Magnum Cams have, and bring that up to about .510" lift with this new addition of these rockers. And the rollers reduces the friction and side thrust on the valve tip to almost zero, so the concerns of more stress and wear on the valves and valve guides  are pretty much eliminated. With high lift, this would be a concern with a non-roller type rocker.

Why do we need more lift?
More lift gives more room for the mixture to flow into the cylinder. It's as simple as that.
For the math involved, let's just accept as a "given" the fact that when a valve is lifted to 25% of it's head diameter, then the valve curtain area where the mixture can flow is equal to the area of the whole valve head. In other words, when the valve is lifted to this 25% of its diameter, the valve is basically "out of the way" in terms of being a flow obstacle. We call this ".25D", and it is a basic goal for valve lift in a performance engine. Lifting higher than this .25D is fine, and will give more "area under the curve" and can produce some better flow at higher lifts too. But .25D is the very least where we'd like to go with valve lift. How much higher it can go is related to physical constraints in the head design. We do get higher than .25D with this head.
Let's look at the math.
In the Big Head, they use a larger valve than the normal Bullet does.
It is 1.94". If we take 25% of 1.94", we get .485". So, .485" valve lift would be the .25D figure for lift that we'd be shooting for as a minimum.
No normal Bullet, whether it's a Big Head or not, has ever been able to lift the valve that high. Most never even get anywhere close to that lift height.
A normal Bullet with a 1.75" valve would reach .25D at .438" lift, and only the most radical racing cam that I have ever heard of for a Bullet can barely reach that.
And if the typical performance valve size of 1.84" is used in a performance Bullet engine, the .25D lift height of .460" would never be reached.
So, for all intents and purposes of performance, the Bullet has never really been able to get the lift it needs, and pretty much has never hit the .25D lift height in the whole 50+ years of its existence.

This means we get to use the whole port, and not just part of it, because we can now get the valve out of the way. We're hitting .277D with this .510" lift height that we are getting on this head. No Bullet before(as far as I've ever heard of) has ever lifted the valve more than a half-inch like this one does. This is the kind of lift height that is seen in the racing Norton Manx or the Matchless G50 or other OHC bikes of that vintage racing genre. That's what we are trying to match with our pushrod Bullet. Now we can be on equal, or maybe even better terms, in the way of valve lift, as these other racing bikes that we are trying to chase down with this engine mod.

All of this equals more flow. More flow means more power, as long as it can be exploited with the rest of the design. In this case, it also means rpms. The higher the rpms, the more flow is needed because there is less time for the mixture to get into the cylinder. But we need to breathe well in the high rpms because Torque x RPM/5252 = Horsepower. The more power strokes we can get in one minute means that many more times we can get our Torque figure applied to the crank at that rpm, which means more power. So, our aim is to raise our torque peak higher in the rpm range, so we can hold on to as much torque as possible at these higher rpms, giving more horsepower, and a faster bike.
The valve lift allows more torque to be built, and with our proper porting can give more flow at higher rpms too, and it all adds up to what we need to compete against these legendary vintage racing machines which produce more than 50 hp at rpms of 7000 or higher. We need to be there with them.

Kevin's head that we modded now flows over 240 cubic feet per minute(cfm) at full lift with the bare head(no manifold on it). This equals the intake flow of an LS1 Corvette intake port. That's where we are with this head.
With the manifold on it, it drops to about 231 cfm. The manifold always drops the flow at least a little bit.
231 cfm flow, fully exploited with a full-house racing build, should be able to yield 59 hp at the crank, if everything was done perfect and it got all it could give.

It's the first time in Bullet history that anybody has done what has been done with this head, as far as I have ever heard of. And I've looked pretty hard at most everything that has ever been done to a Bullet.  I don't know what Linsdell has in his, and his is very fast, but I don't think he's talking about what he's done to his. Regardless, we plan to be able to do anything his Bullet can do.

So, that's why I'm so excited about it.
Maybe I'm a technical nerd or something, but it gives me goosebumps. Because I know what this can be made to do.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 03:08:48 am by ace.cafe »
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Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 03:24:45 am
What a great read!  That is great that you have accomplished the previously impossible.  Hats off to you Tom!    :)

So I was talking to Alex at work today and now I'm contemplating boosting the motor with a small turbo charger.  I don't think that has ever done with an Enfield twin.  What are your thoughts on this Ace?

Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 03:34:50 am
What a great read!  That is great that you have accomplished the previously impossible.  Hats off to you Tom!    :)

So I was talking to Alex at work today and now I'm contemplating boosting the motor with a small turbo charger.  I don't think that has ever done with an Enfield twin.  What are your thoughts on this Ace?

Scottie

It can be done, but it presents a different set of challenges, depending on how much boost you want to use. Much tougher on the bottom end parts, and the twins are fairly weak in the bottom end.  And so are the singles.
You would definitely have to use alcohol fuel for something like that.  You'd never keep that thing out of detonation with gasoline.
It also affects the cam timing quite a bit, because boosted engines have a different set of needs in terms of camming. Probably needs custom made cams.
"Blow-thru" turbo with carbs can have issues keeping the carbs sealed-off so that the fuel levels in the fuel bowls run proper pressure relationships to the boost levels, or it won't feed.
"Suck-thru" turbo with carbs can have issues with blowing up the plenum if there's a spit-back or a hot turbo igniting the fuel in the intake tract.
Fuel injection solves these problems, and I personally would use fuel injection with a boosted system. It's a big project with all these ramifications.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 04:01:02 am by ace.cafe »
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Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 04:25:07 am
So what you're saying is get a TB and ECU off of an UCE and buy a programmer to control my timing and fuel maps, don't run more the 5 or 6psi of boost and I'm in business?  Oh man, that would be a sweet set up but would cost a small fortune to collect all the needed parts.  Maybe in the future when I finally track down an Interceptor.   ;)

So back to square one.  Can the bottom end handle 13-1 with the lightened forged rods and balancing the crankshaft?  Or am I better off going with a 12 or 12.5-1 piston?   ???  Keep in mind that I have that Thorspark EI installed and have full control over my timing.

Scottie
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Reply #24 on: September 12, 2013, 05:15:05 am
 Race tuning took out 90% of the fun factor of every car and bike I tuned for racing.

Yes they were fun in their element but not so fun the rest of the time.

 My advice is that since the Blackhawk provides so much enjoyment as is and wherever you go, leave it be.

 Get a second one or an interceptor for fun a 1/4 mile at a time.
No matter where you go, there, you are.


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Reply #25 on: September 12, 2013, 05:36:45 am
Scottie J:

Rather than blow up a classic Royal Enfield that basically has a 500cc twin lower end, why not buy a Suzuki Hayabusa?

A used one can be found for less money than a turbocharged RE would cost.  It will be more dependable and go a lot faster too. :)

If you really want to hot rod a RE twin, at least find a Interceptor II that was redesigned to take a lot of horsepower.
Jim
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Reply #26 on: September 12, 2013, 10:39:47 am
I will kick in a few bucks to support the effort.
Thanks, Ice and thanks Ace  8)
 Once we have an idea of where we might be able go with this, we can hopefully decide how best to implement any options. At any rate, it is a good opportunity to try and improve at least one engine for the 500 !!
 B.W.


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Reply #27 on: September 12, 2013, 01:08:42 pm
Scottie J:

Rather than blow up a classic Royal Enfield that basically has a 500cc twin lower end, why not buy a Suzuki Hayabusa?

A used one can be found for less money than a turbocharged RE would cost.  It will be more dependable and go a lot faster too. :)

If you really want to hot rod a RE twin, at least find a Interceptor II that was redesigned to take a lot of horsepower.

Everyone and their sister has a Busa.  Yeah they're bad ass and one of the fastest production bikes out there, but so what, they're everywhere.  I see 4 or 5 a week.  What fun is that?  And I've owned enough sport bikes to know that I really don't care to own another.  Same with Jap bikes, those things are a plague here in Denver.  Just when you think you see something cool, it just turns out to be another CB650 or what not.  I've ridden 2 different H-D's, not at all impressed.  I'll never own one of those unless it's something super old and cool.

I realize that some of you think I'm insane for wanting to do this, but since I discovered performance parts were available for this bike, I've wanted to hot rod it.  And I'm not worried about grenading the motor, I'll be addressing the bottom end issues and doing what's necessary to eliminate those problems.  And 1/4 mile is what I primarily enjoy, but I'll be hitting up some local road courses as well.

And maybe...  JUST maybe...  I WANT THE WORLD'S FASTEST INDIAN!!!

Scottie
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


ace.cafe

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Reply #28 on: September 12, 2013, 01:11:47 pm
So what you're saying is get a TB and ECU off of an UCE and buy a programmer to control my timing and fuel maps, don't run more the 5 or 6psi of boost and I'm in business?  Oh man, that would be a sweet set up but would cost a small fortune to collect all the needed parts.  Maybe in the future when I finally track down an Interceptor.   ;)

So back to square one.  Can the bottom end handle 13-1 with the lightened forged rods and balancing the crankshaft?  Or am I better off going with a 12 or 12.5-1 piston?   ???  Keep in mind that I have that Thorspark EI installed and have full control over my timing.

Scottie
I don't know exactly what those rods can take, but I would have some concerns about using the OEM alloy rods in it for any length of time. If you plan to run alloy rods, buy a stack of them for spares, and change them out after each racing season. There are quite a few Enfield twin cases out there with welded-up holes in them after broken rods busted them out.

Regarding the compression, if you are going to use E85, it will probably be limited to about 200-220 psi compression. If you want to run higher compression than that, you should use Methanol. Since you are at high altitude, you'll need a higher piston dome to get this compression. I'd have to run a calculation on the amount of dome for the piston, based on your altitude and your combustion chamber volume and your actual intake valve closing timing. 
We have run 11.5:1 on E85 at sea level in California in "1Thump's" Fireball Bullet with over 200 psi compression, and it worked fine. The bottom end was built with our piston and a Carrillo steel rod with FAG X-Life brass-caged bearings, and the crank was trued real well.

You definitely want an Interceptor manifold set, or custom individual manifolds, and a pair of carbs. One carb and a shared manifold ain't gonna cut it. You need individual runners and individual carbs and individual tuned stacks for those intakes.

Doing this kind of build will be expensive. But it will be unique.
I also agree with the comments that as you optimize this bike more and more for racing purposes, it becomes less and less nice to ride on the street, until finally it's perfect for racing, but you have to trailer it to the event.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 01:20:02 pm by ace.cafe »
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Reply #29 on: September 12, 2013, 01:23:32 pm
I know it's going to be expensive, isn't everything racing related expensive?   ;)  I plan on spending about $3000 for this build, I think that should get me a few more ponies.  As for the bottom end, will your Carrillo steel rods work in the twins?  If not, here is the machined billet performance rods that Hitchcocks provides for the twins.

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/news/25099/New_Twin_Conrods_Available

Scottie
2001 Harley Davidson Road King