[mattsz]

I'm preparing for this job.  The nut holding the front sprocket is quite thin, I think, and the socket from the monster set I bought is "flared" a bit at the opening; the grooves which grab the nut corners don't extend all the way to the edge of the socket.  Does this make sense?  I guess they do this to make it easier to fit a socket onto a nut or bolt head?



My question is, will the socket grip as is, or should I think about grinding some or all of that flare off the lip so it might be less likely to slip off the skinny nut?

[2bikebill]

Try it first. The nut holding my sprocket on was only finger tight!
Luckily there is a lock washer preventing it coming loose.

[heloego]

The socket pictured should work just fine.
It's normally referred to as a 6-point socket. Older sockets have an even flat between points and have always been adequate, but often an over-tightened or over-torqued nut could have its points rounded off during removal.
Your socket has a shoulder between points and that shoulder is designed to grab the nut further back from the nut point. This gives a better "grab" at the contact point, preventing rounding off of the nut.
A much better design, IMHO. Too bad they can't do the same for 12-point nuts and bolts.

[gashousegorilla]

  It's not the retaining washer under the nut, which has the tabs bent up against the flats of nut giving you trouble is ? If so, just bend them down, and your socket should fit fine. Then when your done, bend them back up against the nut.  It acts as a lock washer.

[mattsz]

Thanks guys.

GHG: I'm not having any trouble - yet  .  I haven't opened anything up yet.

heloego: That pic is just an example I grabbed off the net.  The socket I have isn't a six-pointer, and it's big enough to cook a small meal in.  But the idea is the same...

I was wondering if anyone who has needed a 6-foot breaker-bar or an impact wrench (and they're lurking here somewhere!) to remove that nut has had any trouble with the socket not grabbing enough of the slim retaining nut...

[barenekd]

I needed about a 5' breaker bar. A standard breaker bar plus an old fork tube. The nut was definitely tight! Same socket, though...No problem. If I were still a young, strong pup, I probably could've gotten it off with the breaker bar, but I try not to overstress myself these days! Especially if I have something to reduce the effort, like a guy to change my tires!
Bare

[gashousegorilla]

Thanks guys.

GHG: I'm not having any trouble - yet  .  I haven't opened anything up yet.

  OH !!  Sorry Matt. You were just doing a little pre- investigatory type thing, so you don't get into trouble..... nuttin' wrong with that.

[t120rbullet]

I was wondering if anyone who has needed a 6-foot breaker-bar or an impact wrench (and they're lurking here somewhere!) to remove that nut has had any trouble with the socket not grabbing enough of the slim retaining nut...

I used a socket that was ground flat and an impact.
Don't know if the grinding made any difference but the nut looked pretty thin so we ground it down before we even started.

[Craig McClure]

I had the same situation, on a different bike, & had a machinist pal turn the flare away on a lathe. Glad I did - that bolt was mega-tight even after heating & penetrating oil. hope that helps.

[mattsz]

I've got access to the grinder I need to do the job, so I might as well do it...

[mattsz]

My big socket set has a 45mm socket, and a 48mm socket.  The nut is apparently 46mm.  Singhg5 measured the nut as 46mm, and suggests using a 48mm socket.

I trust him, but can anyone confirm this?  I'm going to grind down the 48mm socket unless I hear otherwise!

[gashousegorilla]

  Don't do it Matt !!   LOL !  A  1 13/16 " works perfectly and probably easier to find then a 46 mm. Unless you have a different size nut on the B-5.

[Ducati Scotty]

+1, that's what I used.  Easier to find and half the price.

It was a 12 point.  It kept slipping off with the breaker bar, but it also took a few seconds to come loose with the impact gun so I suspect it was quite tight.  If you're using an impact gun you should have no trouble with the flare.

Scott

[Arizoni]

I haven't changed the sprocket but if I were to do it I would leave the chain attached and the transmission in neutral while loosening the big nut.

Rather than trying to stand on the brake pedal and wrench the nut off at the same time I would tighten the rear brake adjustment nut until the brake was firmly locked.

That way I wouldn't be putting the torque from the wrench into my transmissions gear train where it might do some mischief.

[GSS]

My big socket set has a 45mm socket, and a 48mm socket.  The nut is apparently 46mm.  Singhg5 measured the nut as 46mm, and suggests using a 48mm socket.

I trust him, but can anyone confirm this?  I'm going to grind down the 48mm socket unless I hear otherwise!

Don't do it.  Use the right size socket and spare yourself and the bike from injury/damage.  You are over-analyzing this simple project.  Left foot on the brake pedal and a proper sized socket with a breaker bar works great.  I slipped a 4 foot handle from a Hi-Lift jack on the breaker bar and it required minimal effort to break it loose.  I used the same procedure to tighten and bent the lock washer back at a different spot from the original bend.

[singhg5]

Matt:

My big socket set has a 45mm socket, and a 48mm socket.  The nut is apparently 46mm.  Singhg5 measured the nut as 46mm, and suggests using a 48mm socket.

I trust him, but can anyone confirm this?  I'm going to grind down the 48mm socket unless I hear otherwise!

What you saw in the video is that I had used 48mm socket, which was the closest size I had. That has been used by many other people before and after the video was made.

As GHG has said it is harder to find exact size socket to fit the big nut which was 46mm on my G5. 

I did NOT suggest that you should use over-sized socket if you have right size tools .

That nut can be taken off WITHOUT ANY socket - now don't go around telling people that Singh suggested do not use sockets  .
 
I have taken these measurments because I could not find all the answers - so I started making videos to document anything I did. That is why I gave both these numbers 46 and 48mm so that the information can be useful for Mr.Exact and Mr.Not-So-Exact (In Indian language we have a special word - 'chalta hai', roughly translated 'Will do').

Moroever I can't trust my memory, so it needs to be photographed and put on the web - a safe place where I can find them !!

[gashousegorilla]

  +1

  My memory ain't the best either....... But I do remember you making all of that quite clear back then.

[NH Oldguy]

I just recently changed to an 18 tooth front sprocket on my G5, in order to install an O-ring chain.  I used the 12 point box end of a 46 mm combination wrench, which has a chamfered edge like the socket photo you show.  It worked fine, but take care to seat your socket squarely and try to get your breaker bar handle (where you push) in-plane with the sprocket to minimize the tendency for your socket to twist off the thin nut when you apply force to the handle.  It did take a pretty substantial torque to break the nut free, but the 20" length of my wrench provided adequate advantage.  I slipped a piece of 2x4 between the spokes of the rear wheel out near the rim and beneath the front end of the swing arm to resist the torque applied to the nut.

It's a good idea to have a new gasket handy for the right side engine cover before you start this job.  You must remove the cover to access the sprocket, and the original gasket may not survive.  I was fortunate in that my gasket came off intact with the cover (I was careful, too), so my new spare is available if you need it.  Rap on the cover with a soft mallet (or?) after loosening the allen head capscrews, and then use a thin blade to carefully separate the gasket from the engine.  Mine was glued to the cover side and separated successfully from the engine side without damage.

Good luck.

[mattsz]

Thanks all for your replies!

Singhg5, I understand what you mean by your "recommendation".  The 48 mm socket is the only thing I have that might do the job, and I have no local shops where I can just pick up a single socket the right size.  Of course I would use the right size tool if I had one, and any of us should do the same!

I think I'll grind the socket down just because I can, and maybe try to locate a correct size "loaner" in the meantime.

NH Oldguy, thanks for the gasket advice.  I actually have a couple of spares handy if I need them...

[gremlin]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILLIAMS-HEAVY-DUTY1-13-16-X-3-4-SHALLOW-SOCKET-12-PT-MODEL-H-1258-USED-/321128726945?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac4c381a1#ht_526wt_959

[Gypsyjon]

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200384626_200384626?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Hand%20Tools-_-Sockets-_-558712&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=558712&gclid=CNqI8JGmrbcCFVQV7AodyiUABA

[mattsz]

Thanks guys - I'll check them out.

In my usual path of over-thinking a job, I'm wondering now about that little tabbed locking washer that holds the nut.  Looking at a few photos, it appears that one of the tabs should line up with a flat of the nut.  Once I tighten the nut, will this always be the case?  If not, do I just bend the tab closest to a flat, or do I further tighten, if possible, or perhaps loosen the nut again so a tab lines up well?

I've run into this when trying to replace the split pin on the rear axle castle nut - "good and tight" means that the hole in the axle doesn't line up with any of the castle nut's grooves, and I'm hesitant to try to tighten further (especially with my history of breaking things on this bike!).  I end up loosening the castle nut enough to line up a slot with the hole for the split pin...

Singhg5 - although the steps in my manual for removing the right-side cover include removing the oil filter, it looks in your video like you just left your oil filter in place?

[Ducati Scotty]

Remove the nut, reposition the tab washer, re tighten.

Scott

[mattsz]

A quick question:

I've got my right-side cover off, no problems.  There's a spacer that fits on the shift lever - it came off when I pulled the cover, but I can see where it's supposed to go.

Potential problem is, the spacer is plastic and it's a bit chowdered.  One side is slightly deformed, a sort of extrusion only around the inner diameter:




And one side a sort of flare around the outside diameter:




It's not too bad, I guess, but I wonder if: a) I should be trying to reinstall it in the same orientation it came off, i.e. the same side facing the engine; or b) should I replace it with a new one, which of course I don't have?

EDIT:  on closer inspection, I can clearly see which side is "out": the OD side "flare" is compressed by the flat face of the shift lever's "teardrop" shaped finger (I don't know what it's called), and the ID side "extrusion" fits into a gap in the cover.

question b stands:  would I be crazy to reuse this spacer?  I've only got 2k miles on it; I can't imagine that a new one of the same material would be any different after another 2k miles...

[gashousegorilla]

  It looks to be worn Matt.  As if it's being pressed too tightly between the shifter fork and the right side cover locating bore.  Is there any left to right play on the shaft, when the right side cover is on?   Almost like your shifter peg may be installed too far on the splined shaft end.

[mattsz]

Is there any left to right play on the shaft, when the right side cover is on?

I temporarily replaced and tightened down the cover and measured the "in-out" play in the shaft on the shift lever side - it's about 3/64", or just the tiniest hair over 1mm.

Is this thing plastic to prevent wear of the engine cover and shifter fork?

[gashousegorilla]

   That sounds about right.... mine might have a little more. It centers the shaft in the bore, so it can pivot nice and easy in the bore.  And it should go on the shaft nice and easy....you should be able to turn it back and fourth easy with your fingers. 

[mattsz]

So, whadayathink - should I just put it back together and forget about it?

[gashousegorilla]

   What do you think ?   Your there.....  It looks worn or unfinished at one end to me.  Anything in that bore or on that shaft that could be causing that ? Rough surfaces etc ?

[mattsz]

Yeah, but I don't know WTF I'm doing!

I can see clearly what's causing both wear patterns.  The spacer OD is slightly larger than the rounded portion of the shifter fork, so enough force on the shaft from left side of the engine would push the fork into the spacer, possibly compressing it and creating that flare round the edge - the second pic

On the other side, the flat surface on the right-side engine cover where the spacer rests has an OD which is larger than the spacer, but the diameter of the hole for the shaft is a bit larger than the ID of the spacer, so again, enough force on the shaft from left to right would possibly compress the spacer and force some of the plastic to deform into that cavity - the first pic.

What would cause this?  The shaft has play, but maybe there was a time it didn't.  Never had a problem shifting, though.  A single blow?  The bike shows no signs of being dropped or otherwise struck on the shaft.  Would repeated use alone cause it to deform so?  It really does look deformed - I don't believe it's been worn down into this condition...

[Arizoni]

I think you may be overthinking this.

If I were you I would study how it should fit and then install it, as is.

It isn't unheard of for a designer to use a part that can conform to its environment while it is doing its job.  If it is removed, it may show some distortion simply because it needed to do that to exist in the confinements it was forced into.

If later on I ran into trouble that I could link to this plastic part, then I would consider getting a new one.

[mattsz]

Jim - of course I'm overthinking it!  That's what I do!  I even said so earlier in this thread. 

In this case, though, I'm answering questions posed by someone more knowledgeable than me who is trying to help me, so of course I'm happy to oblige.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, and I'm equally prepared to replace the part as I am to simply reinstall it with the understanding that it may have conformed to its environment to do its job.

I would be surprised if this were the case, seeing as the shaft has about 1mm of play and is clearly not currently being conformed to fit.  But either way, I can easily enough put it all back together and keep an eye on the shaft's free play and if it gets worse, I know just where to look to improve it...

But not until tomorrow!  Meanwhile, if anyone else has any thoughts, I'm all ears...

[gashousegorilla]

Yeah, but I don't know WTF I'm doing!

I can see clearly what's causing both wear patterns.  The spacer OD is slightly larger than the rounded portion of the shifter fork, so enough force on the shaft from left side of the engine would push the fork into the spacer, possibly compressing it and creating that flare round the edge - the second pic

On the other side, the flat surface on the right-side engine cover where the spacer rests has an OD which is larger than the spacer, but the diameter of the hole for the shaft is a bit larger than the ID of the spacer, so again, enough force on the shaft from left to right would possibly compress the spacer and force some of the plastic to deform into that cavity - the first pic.

What would cause this?  The shaft has play, but maybe there was a time it didn't.  Never had a problem shifting, though.  A single blow?  The bike shows no signs of being dropped or otherwise struck on the shaft.  Would repeated use alone cause it to deform so?  It really does look deformed - I don't believe it's been worn down into this condition...

   Matt.... The reason I am hesitant to tell you to go a head and through that back in. Is because I can assure you mine doesn't look like that.  Mine is finished on both sides  and always has been... I cant remember how many times I've had the cover off. As a matter of fact... yesterday even.  And I can't think of anything ....without taking the cover back off.... In there that would cause that kind of wear. Just being honest.  To me, and I could be wrong.... It looks like it was cut off of the end of some round plastic stock, and not finished.. Could be fine ? Probably is ?  But I ain't sure without being there. If you don't see anything amiss ? Go for it.. It worked before ,right ? What the hail.... But don't say GHG said it was ok, if it ain't.

   But do remember that O ring behind the oil filter housing.... that one I would replace. And I wouldn't goop up the gasket with perpatex or some such. As you may block up the oil passage to the head.  Grease or an oil coating is all you should need. And, you may want to get that cover off again sometime.

[GSS]

Put in a new one since it looks worn and is raising your stress level. Realistically you do not need a new one since your shift lever only moves in and out by 1 mm. This plastic spacer keeps the shifter rod from sliding too far to the right which would put your little lever on the right side at risk of jumping out of the notch.

Take a look at the photos in my old thread - http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,14575.msg154863.html#msg154863

[Ducati Scotty]

If it was shifting fine before you opened it just put it back together and ride.  Order a spare for security if it will let you sleep better.

Scott

[mattsz]

Everything went without a hitch - and, if you can believe it, I didn't even break anything!  I had to move the exhaust pipe to remove the foot peg to get the cover off, but that's ok since I planned to install the EFI muffler anyway.  I stole singhg5's idea for cover bolt "storage": I sketched the cover outline on a piece of cardboard and marked the bolt locations, then poked them into the cardboard in the corresponding sketch locations.  I had a couple of spare gaskets, so I used a new one.

I did manage to borrow an impact wrench for the sprocket nut, but it turns out I didn't need it.  I used my ground-flat 48mm socket (I know, I know...) on an 18" breaker bar and kneeled on the brake lever; just as I thought I was going to tip the bike over, it slowly gave way and loosened.  I tightened it the same way, after one "false start" with the locking washer position.

I reinstalled the shift bushing - I'll line up a spare at some point...

[shamelin]

Congrats on the sprocket change- I think you'll find the change in performance to have been worth your while.