[kammersangerin]

My 2012 C5 is home, finally, after quite a trip and some time sitting waiting to be unloaded. In spite of the so called 28.5 inch seat, it really acts more like its at 30 inches, which I could have achieved by simply using lower springs in the seat. We are looking at adjustments there. I will definitely need lowered shocks. These stock shocks are stiff as a board on the softest settings, and do not settle at all when I get on. I think I will ask Hagon to make them super soft, with an adjustment to harder for when I am actually carrying some weight behind me. I know people worry about bottoming out, but I haven't had a bike that started with springs for my weight since I was a kid with a Yamaha 125 enduro. Even the  Hagons didn't move when I sat on them. I watched a 300 lb guy get on bike with the soft shocks and then it settled.

My one real bit of dissapointment is that the back fender is out of alignment. The bike has not been in a reported accident when I did a title search, nor does it look like it was ever dropped. Tyre wear looks good, not like something is running dog legged. My pro bike friend thinks it really is the rear fender or the saddle bag bars pushing it out. He thinks it can be bent straight, but these bikes are actually heavy duty, so I am not sure how easy that will be. Has did check the rear wheel and said it looked really like that was mounted correctly and comletely straight. Any thoughts?

[motorat]

mine was like that also.
a little persuasion made it line up...and it has been ok since

[kammersangerin]

And more touble with the bike. I guess my friend didn't ride it enough. It started beautifully cold, and it warmed up nicely. but once warmed up, it became unrideable, bucking snorting kicking, backfiring, and basically pushing you all over the place. Seems like I have no luck with this bike and I am not happy with the dealership that sold it. At least the Vespa runs right. This is why I didn't want a carburrated thing anymore.

Hope anyone has some ideas, before I dump it and wash my hands of bikes all together.

[mattsz]

Here come the ideas!!!

Could be a number of things, but when mine did that the cause was a broken negative battery cable terminal end.  The "z" shaped clips are flimsy metal and they break easily, often beneath the heat-shrink tubing on the ends of the wire so it still looks ok...

[GSS]

First of all...congratulations! The fender can be straightened very easily.  If you get the Hagons, under no circumstances let anyone talk you into anything heavier than a 16 kg spring (I suspect that might be too stiff for you as well).  The rough running can often be cured quite easily.  Start by putting in a NGK spark BPR6ES or BPR6EIX, and fill up the tank with some new gas and add some Seafoam or Techron fuel injector cleaner.  Check the connections at the battery terminals and also disconnect the wire that leads to the sidestand switch (this is a simple coupling that comes apart).  This will hopefully get rid of the usual minor issues.

GSS

[kammersangerin]

I called the dealership and got the 'we tested it thoroughly' story. Maybe so, but their ideas were to change out the spark plug, and change the gas. it was their gas. It doesn't idle too well now either. I guess my life is so busy I don;t have time for this. That's why I bought two new scooters. I had intant problems with both new. Now I figured something recent and used. And when I sell stuff, its always right. why can't someone do the same to me?

OK, enough whining. How the heck do you get the spark plug cover off? I have little fingers and can't even get a good enough hold. Is there some sort of tool?

[barenekd]

Get a screwdriver and pry the cap off from the bottom. They can be a bitch!
Bare

[kammersangerin]

GSS, so I looked at the switch location for the kick stand. Are you saying literally just unscrew the little backing plate for it, and that does it? Its a little bit of surface rust on one of the battery connections, but otherwise they both look good. I guess I could peel back the covering some and see.

Bare, Thanks, I am always glad when someone finally admits its just a bigger hammer kind of job. I try and not push and jerk too much, but sounds like this is one of those deals.

Instinct says this is why the bike was traded in.

[barenekd]

The rear fender can be straightened with about the same approach. Loosen the bolts up and start muscleing it back to where you want it. It may be a bit of a struggle and might even take a little hole enlargement.
These things are pretty much hand built and tend to vary a bit from one to the next. But as you say, they are heavy duty and not prone to moving much when you get the parts aligned. When you drop it, you can really appreciate its hardiness!
The missing and popping does sound like a lose connection somewhere. Check the things mentioned previously. If that doesn't stop it, look deeper. These bikes can have those little things that can drive you nuts occasionally, but once you get past them, the bike is wonderful.  They can have a  tendency to turn men into mechanics!
Bare

[GSS]

GSS, so I looked at the switch location for the kick stand. Are you saying literally just unscrew the little backing plate for it, and that does it?

Much easier than that! Follow the wire up from the sidestand switch and you will find a connector you can disconnect. No tools needed and you are done.

[ace.cafe]

And more touble with the bike. I guess my friend didn't ride it enough. It started beautifully cold, and it warmed up nicely. but once warmed up, it became unrideable, bucking snorting kicking, backfiring, and basically pushing you all over the place. Seems like I have no luck with this bike and I am not happy with the dealership that sold it. At least the Vespa runs right. This is why I didn't want a carburrated thing anymore.

Hope anyone has some ideas, before I dump it and wash my hands of bikes all together.

Unless you are in India, I don't think your bike is "carburrated".
The ones in the US, UK, and EU are Electronic Fuel Injection(EFI).
Just take it to the dealer, explain what's happening when it warms up, and let them fix it. It's under warranty.

[mattsz]

Ace - I think his bike is a used one, bought from a dealer.  Is the warranty transferable?

[ace.cafe]

Ace - I think his bike is a used one, bought from a dealer.  Is the warranty transferable?

Oh. Not sure about transferable, but it might be.
Anyway, most dealers will handle basic "bad running" problems on a bike that was just sold yesterday. I can't imagine that they wouldn't correct that.

[kammersangerin]

Ace, yes, the bike has EFI. The kind of problems I am having are the kind of things I find common on yes, carburrated bikes - British spelling bother you? - and cars. They are the kinds of niggles I never want to go back to, as experienced on my last Jap bike. I don't feel like 10 minutes to warm up an S40 because it's set so lean.

The warranty is not transferable if it is second hand, though I found that specification interesting. I bought it from the dealer that sold it new, and got it back on a trade in. Is that really a second hand sale? Unfortunately, the dealer is out of state. Seems to be my luck. Basically if you don;t own a Yamaha or a Suzuki in my area, you have to drive at least an hour. Frankly, I am tired of every bike I own having a problem in 1 week or less, requiring me to put back in my truck and haul it somewhere to be worked in, including the last TWO under warranty.

I just want a friggen bike I can throw my leg over and ride for a bit.

The dealer's comment? Change the spark plug, yada yada. From what i am reading in another thread, this is no small issue, it's one of the nasty take forever fault tracing game issues, that will have the bike sidelined for months.

[Arizoni]

kammersangerin

With a bit of "do it yourself" mechanic'en there is no reason you can't fix the problems yourself and save yourself the problems of getting it back to the dealer.

I've found that removing the spark plug wire is easy if I use a flat blade screw driver and located the tip under the small metal flange that connects the two halves of the metal shield.  With the tip located and the body of the screw driver against the metal fin on the head a slight prying action causes it to slip up and off.
When you go to install the new NGK spark plug, remove the small screw on cap located on the top of the spark plug.  It is not needed with the RE's cap which locates directly on the threads.  Just push the cap down and you'll hear a zzzzip as it engages.

The sidestand switch wire runs from the switch up behind the engine.
Down towards the lower left hand engine mount you will find the small plastic wiring connector.  Push in the release and pull it apart.  It's that simple.

The fender issue is a common complaint.  The holes that locate it are rather sloppy (oversize) so the people who assemble it can put it on off center.
As was suggested, loosening the bolts/nuts can allow a little force to make it align better.
It may not be perfect but as Kevin says, "It's hand crafted", meaning the tolerances aren't good enough to make the fenders automatically align when they are installed.

[JVS]

As other members have suggested, it is most likely an electrical issue and you should check/adjust the following first -

- Replace OEM plug with NGK BPR6ES spark plug, or check for tightness of original spark plug.
- Disconnect sidestand switch (However, since I have got my RE, it has caused me no problems, and it is still connected)
- Check battery connections, especially the ground connection behind the battery. Also, battery electrolyte level (if it is the OEM battery)
- Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) connection on the LH side of the bike.
- Connections in the fuse box.

[kammersangerin]

Hi Arizoni,

Its not that I don't have the know how, or even many of tools, its that I simply don't really have the time, or the patience. I need to do my taxes this weekend, not screw with a new bike that a sloppy dealer sold me. If I wanted a fiddler project I could have bought an 800$ CB350 Honda with all the same amount of power and saved myself lots of money. I bought new bikes from reputable dealers to avoid this right now. Now, this third one while not brand new, is still a 2012 without many miles, and I am still in the same spot.

I did the obvious, like check the fuses, battery connections, fuel line tightness, and I will check the spark plug, but a fouled spark plug is going to mean something bigger. I have no idea how to check the TPS sensor because I don't have a manual for resistances checks,  nor should something like that be DOA on a bike that' s 5 months old.

I have seen some wild things in EFI in my time - I have worked on it for 20 years on Volvos and BMWs - and this just shrieks of a deep fault tracing problem that someone just wanted to dump on someone else.

I don't really care about the fender being a little bit out of wack, but its so far its can actually rub the tyre.

[Desi Bike]

Check the plug first... Its pretty simple task. If the bike has been sitting at a dealer idling or subjected to short "round the block" rides for a while with test drivers it will carbon up as the plug doesnt have time to reach a reasonable operating temperature to burn off the carbon. Pretty common on carbed and efi vehicles. The spark plug check should take 5 minutes out of your enjoyment of doing taxes. 

Take the tool kit out of the side box, insert the screwdriver under one of the ears of the plug cap, and lift / pry it off. Take the plug wrench (the metal tubey thing) from the tool kit and slip it over the plug. Using the screw driver handle in the hole on the side of the plug wrench, turn the plug wrench counter-clock wise to remove the plug.

 Look at the plug.

 Is it blackened?

Did the previous owner leave the cap on the wire end of the plug? The wire end of the plug, the one that does not go in the engine, should have a small threaded tip on it.

 Take your new plug, an NGK BPR6ES, and using the pair of pliers from your bike's tool kit, clamp onto the wire end of the plug and twist counter clockwise to remove the metal cap covering the threads. Toss the cap thingy away, you don't need it. If removing the cap thingy is not done, the spark plug wire will not make a proper contact with the plug and will run like crap, if at all.

Put the new plug in the hole on the engine, hand thread and hand tighten it until it is snug. Then a quarter turn with the wrench. Push on the wire until you hear the connector 'zzzzip' as it clamps over the threads on the spark plug.

Put your tools back into the tool roll and put it back in the bike.

Test ride the bike, but not a slow round the block ride or you will end up fouling the plug and end up where you are now. Go for a mile or so to warm it up.

What kills spark plugs is having the bike idle while 'warming it up' for anything over a minute or so. Five minutes of idling may seem like you are doing good for the bike, but really its worse than cold starting the bike and riding off.

[kammersangerin]

Yes Desi, you have caught me. I fully admit that tax time is my fav time of year, and I can't wait to get to it.  Especially as it involves income from multiple countries and all kinds of tax rules about what where and how you pay what......

I think I am good to go on understanding how to replace the spark plug, and what I should see and I did manage to find the toolkit  I just can't get there until the parts store opens and I get a few other things done. I was glad that Bare told me the plug is just a bit of a force oriented move with a screw driver. We all learn the hard way at some point when we snap the stud on the head that the force move wasn't it.

Regardless, I immensely appreciate all the time everyone has spent giving me options - however unpalatable they might be - while I grinch away on what has truly been a bad run of luck.

[RE-Memphis]

Me thinks that with a little bit of blood, sweat, and tears now you'll actually come to find a fun "leg over and ride" bike hidden inside that run of bad luck of yours.

I was lucky; the dealer I purchased mine from is a true grease-monkey who also makes it a point to put some miles on his bikes before selling them. So the majority of my break in (and broken bits) was already tackled before I got to her.

That being said, I still put in about an hour a week of just "little stuff" to keep "Thumper" going.

I'm mindful that I bought an old frame design and a new engine from the developing world. Expecting the worst, I'm pretty happy all in all.

To echo the thoughts of others, the side stand switch is easy. Quick disconnect halfway up the frame near the battery box. I took the actual switch off also (two hex head screws) and tossed this in the "spares box". (Be mindful to pick up your kick if you do this

 I also have done a thorough electrical walk through and tightened up a few worry spots. I keep a spare batter cable on hand because of all the comments about snapped terminal ends.

The paint (mines the Military) does like to rub at spots. After wet days I'm pretty rigorous about finding rust spots and dealing with them.

I put in a NGK spark. Remember to take the screw on cap off of it as you don't need it with the Enfield wire.

I did "reconnect" my headlight off switch. If I'm idling the bike for maintenance or letting it warm I don't see the need for headlights.

My only significant modification was to build my own air box and filter out of PVC. I replaced the small oval toolbox and got the big toolbox back for gloves, spare tubes, more tools, and the stuff I think I ought have handy.

I also put on some old school Triumph indicators but that was purely aesthetic. The stock is just fine.

Future: I plan on a 7" headlight and possibly new shocks. Definatly a new echaust to get rid of the telephone pole strapped to the side of the bike. (Again, the look of it – nothing actually wrong there)

Overall I'm very positive about this bike. I commute about 200 miles a week on both city and rural roads in all kinds of weather. I haven't had an on the road problem yet. The fuel economy is fantastic.

Best of all is the constant commentary from strangers. It's certainly a distinctive look.

So hopefully everyone’s managed to "positive" you on your bad luck, and here's to your thumper being on the road soon!

Cheers,
Ijpe

[Craig McClure]

Hi Kammersangerin, I can help with the rear fender problem: I have a brand new never used set of black rear fender braces & bolts to fit your bike, I would sell for $45. including shipping.
  I have never owned a used motorcycle that did not require some tweaking to bring it to my standard, Even a few new ones. The good news is machinery can always be made to work properly. Just requires some thought, research, & patience.  Hang in there.  Best wishes, Craig McClure (2010 G5 Deluxe)

[kammersangerin]

Undoing the kick stand switch did nothing. The bike lopes and backfires even at idle once warmed up. Sounds a lot like an Air Mass meter or oxygen sensor sort of thing.

[kammersangerin]

I removed said plug and yes it was highly carboned with no sign of anything like the colour brown or grey. I replaced ith with the BPR6EIX. The bike will now not start at all unless I hold open the throttle. Is this actually an improvement for a spark plug? It hs a tiny needle point on it and I have no iea what the gap is supposed to be. The idiotic tool RE includes does not fit very well and while I hand screwed it in and the threads appeared to have not been damaged, its very hard to tell if the fit is snug without over gihtening. My professiona grade snap on will not fit in at the angle you have to go.

 Attempting to use the not so brilliant method of prying with a screw driver now has the metal boot bending which is asking for more trouble. So I will get one of my super long screw drives to pry gently from underneath of the tank on the right angle.

Any other suggestions? Or would someone like to buy this wonderful piece of 3rd world machinery that gives such pleasure to ride when it actually runs down the road? Seeing as it is only just a small matter to fix it...

[kammersangerin]

OK it's running now. I managed to get my socket in and remove the plug, and tighten it correctly. The plug was wet and completely black on one side, so it was throwing fuel at it. I cleaned it. To get it started I had to actually engage the throttle, which is not a good way to do it. Are you supposed to use the little choke switch in stead? The manual said using that only after it started. Maybe I am a dunce and did it wrong.

So far it is running evenly but I can't take it out as the snow finally caught up and started covering the roads. Up until an hour ago it was fine. Snow only sticking on the grass.

[Arizoni]

The "choke" or "manual bi starter" as they call it in the book gives a slight increase in RPM when the throttle is left closed.  It seems to be somewhat useful at temperatures below 40 degrees F.

My method of using it is to apply it before I press the starter button rather than  waiting for the engine to start.  This seems to provide almost instant starting even after the bike has sit outside overnight with the air temperature below freezing.

You mentioned the tiny electrode on your new spark plug in another post. 
That is typical of the rare metal plugs and they are not meant to have their gaps adjusted.

[b.sheets]

as far as replacing the battery terminal lugs with nice copper ones....

is the battery wiring 8 guage or 6?
and will any nice copper lug do the trick?
any stores(autozone, etc.) or brands to stay away from?

I would prefer the nice deka copper lugs that I have seen before but can't find what store sells them.
thanks.

[JVS]

I'm glad it is running now. Always tighten the spark plug  Some of our REs require a little blip of the throttle if you use the electric start. However, I have been using the kickstart 99.1% of the time - always starts on the first kick without any throttle input (regardless of weather and if you go past TDC)

[b.sheets]

as far as replacing the battery terminal lugs with nice copper ones....

is the battery wiring 8 guage or 6?
and will any nice copper lug do the trick?
any stores(autozone, etc.) or brands to stay away from?

I would prefer the nice deka copper lugs that I have seen before but can't find what store sells them.
thanks.

I realize this might sound like a dumb question but this bucking and surging sh*t has go to go and I never want to experience it again.

[motorat]

i got some at the local napa auto parts.
i think it is 8guage but i just used enough solder to fill in any gaps

[b.sheets]

thanks! no napa around here but i'll order online through them if I have to.

[Arizoni]

IMO, from an electrical contact point of view, soldering wiring terminals on is a good thing.

From a long lasting point of view, soldering can lead to failure of the wire at the connection.

Even if a rosin core solder is used as it should be for electrical connections, the solder keeps the individual strands in the multi strand wire from moving freely as the wire is bent or moved.  This can introduce unwanted stresses into the wire.
The solder also creates an exact place where the multi strand portion ends and the soldered "solid" place starts which concentrates the stress at that location.

Copper is one of the metals that hardens when it is bent and if this bending (like vibration causes) is repeated the wire can become brittle.
Rather than bending, brittle metal breaks.

I'm not saying this will happen to anyone's newly installed connector but it is something to keep in mind.

[gremlin]

Arizoni is spot-on.

The only thing I'd add is ....  Remember to grease the wire and lug before assembly.

[mattsz]

Arizoni is spot-on.

The only thing I'd add is ....  Remember to grease the wire and lug before assembly.

As in, apply grease to the wire before crimping the lug onto it?  If so, I wonder why?  Is it to keep corrosion from forming in the little spaces between the crimp and the wires?

[Ducati Scotty]

Coming in late but I hope not too late.

Get the NGK plug.  These bikes have a habit of not running well at idle with the stock Bosh plug.  They run fine when cold then run at low RPM and irregularly when warmed up.  Swapping in the NGK almost always sorts it out.

As to soldering the battery lugs, this is one place where I think it's a bad idea.  Solder is great for keepin a connection and preventing corrosion but the battery leads can get very hot when starting.  That solder can melt and drip on things.  I'd say a little grease and a good crimp is all you need.

Finally, if after you get the NGK plug it still seems a little off at idle it's easy to raise or lower the idle speed.  There is a large brass screw on top of the throttle body.  This is the air bypass screw.  It's tough to get to, you can remove the seat or loosen the clamp and rotate the throttle body a bit to get to it more easily.

The idle tends to be a bit low when new and gets a bit higher as things break in.

Scott

[Gypsyjon]

Arizoni is spot-on.

The only thing I'd add is ....  Remember to grease the wire and lug before assembly.

What kind of grease??  Plain old wheel bearing grease??

TIA

[gremlin]

What kind of grease??  Plain old wheel bearing grease??

TIA

actually, that will work.   But, if you want to do it "right" stop by your local electrical supply ( Graybar, Grainger ) and pick up some T&B crimping grease.  In a pinch you can also use that silicone "dielectric" contact grease or battery post grease from your local AutoZone....   

[Arizoni]

I can't say I would use grease in a crimped on connector though some do.

Most greases are non-conductive.  Especially "di-electric grease" which is actually an insulator. Although grease will protect the wire and connector from oxidation they can also decrease the amount of electricity that can pass thru the joint.

There are a couple of special greases that are made specifically to enhance conductivity while still protecting the area from oxidation.  One of these is called DeoxIT but I don't know if it really is worth bothering with.
Here's a link to some discussion about these special greases
http://www.intendedacceleration.com/html/tip_14.html

Just musing to myself here, I wonder how the silver grease used between the motherboard and the CPU (think Pentium) would work?
I know it's highly conductive but on the other hand that's when it's trapped between the CPU and the Motherboards mounting surface.  Silver being a highly reactive metal might find some sulfur dioxide floating around.  Especially if the rider enjoys Chili.

Anyway, if I was going to apply any grease to the joint I would do it after the cleaned wire was crimped into the connector.

[gremlin]

crimping displaces the grease and pushes it up inside the insulation thereby sealing the connection.  It does not form a barrier to conductivity.   In a former life I assembled large stored energy plants -48 vdc @ 2000 amperes with 72 hours of battery.  Every crimp, every connection, and every bus-bar was coated with no-ox grease.  I've seen the results of a "dry" crimp ....  not pretty, even only 6 months later.   Look closely inside your headlight bucket and you will see what I mean.

[RE-Memphis]

Any other suggestions? Or would someone like to buy this wonderful piece of 3rd world machinery that gives such pleasure to ride when it actually runs down the road? Seeing as it is only just a small matter to fix it...

Nah, I think you're having to much fun. I'll keep my current Thumper, and its identified quirks.

[High On Octane]

You should be able to buy the terminal lugs from the Best Buy audio department or from any local car audio shop.
Scottie

[Gypsyjon]

  I be darned...Amazon has all kinds of conductive grease and so does Radio Shack.

Thanks Gremlin.

[Gypsyjon]

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-09128-Copper-Anti-Seize-Lubricant/dp/B000HBM8HU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1364310640&sr=8-3&keywords=conductive+grease

[squire]

I understood that vasaline worked well for electrical connections.....non-acidic....conductor......protects from corrosion!! Not sure where I heard about it but it's always worked for me but then maybe I've just been lucky.

[1 Thump]

This spark plug thing has been known for a while now. I wonder why the factory is sticking with the crappy plug and also why dont dealers swap it for the correct one at setup. Its just amazing. Kevin ??

[JVS]

For me personally, I wouldn't complain about the spark plug. I don't even use the screwdriver to take it off. If you do it gently and carefully, it comes off with one hand. I use my left hand to cover the tank from underneath, and use the other one to pry/pull off the plug cap. Comes off easily, albeit with a little force. And no, it's not loose, always fits back with the 'zzzip'/click sound. 

edit
Sorry I thought you were referring to the plug cap. And I haven't had any drinks!
Yes, it will be a great idea to equip these bikes with an NGK plug from stock 

[kammersangerin]

 Wow, this thread definitely took on a different note. OK, I am not ready to crimp the battery leads yet, or change the gauge of wire. I haven't run the bike since the weekend, but I will try this weekend. In a leap of faith, I did order shocks from hagonUSA, and we had a useful conversation on springs and weight adjustment. I( wish I had done this on the Vespa - she confirmed what I believed, which is most bike springs are TOO HARD. One the softest setting they don't move for me. I laugh when people ask about hardtails because I feel like I am always on one. She convinced me to buy a slightly taller spring with a softer setting, so hopefully it will settle down a few more inches.

[RE-Memphis]

I've been reading back in the pages... the threads tend to wander... Squirrel!