Author Topic: Exhaust system and DynoJet Powercommander V  (Read 11242 times)

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eda1bulletc5

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on: March 12, 2013, 04:50:06 am
Hi Guys,

With my 2011 C5 w/11500 miles, K&N filter and Silman Short bottle silencer, I can hit around 65 to 70mph before the bike starts sputtering. I know the sputtering basically happens because the bike is running lean because of free flowing intake and exhaust and EFI just cuts off fuel. I was thinking about the following, please feel free to reign in

1. Does adjusting the Air bypass screw adjustment (high/low idling) make any difference to reduce the sputtering?
2. Does putting a new exhaust system like sold by hitchcockmotorcycles part # - 91130 along with DynoJet commander make a difference? Has anyone tried it along with K&N filter as well?
3. With mentioned mods in 2, adding a 19T sprocket help top speed a bit with out adversely effecting low end torque?
4. General question: Does DynoJet on a single cylinder Thumper help as much at all?

Please advice and thanks in advance for your input

Regards,
Sajiv
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2012 Honda NC700X 6-speed (sold @26K miles)
2013 BMW R1200RT (@43K + miles)


ace.cafe

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Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 11:27:34 am
Theoretically, the EFI is supposed to have enough lee-way in the mapping to allow the use of a free flow kit, and be able to self-adjust for it.
You might have a fuel flow issue or a clogged injector.

Anyway, the exhaust system you mentioned is being used by a few people here, so I should let them mention how they like it. I have read good comments about it.

The taller sprocket is a tight fit in the case, but I think it can make it. Anyway, it should work okay to lower the rpm range a little at cruising speeds, and if you have some minor mods like you are talking about, it should cope fine with it in terms of acceleration too.

I can't say about the Power Commander, one way or the other. I have not tried it. All I can say is that the very few reports which I have read on this forum leave me feeling like it has not been sorted out yet.

A Power Commander or ECU modification on any bike can have an effect on a single cylinder as much as any other bike. The thing about it is that it can only adjust the mixture and the timing, so all it can do is correct them to be best power range instead of best economy range. The real advantage of a modified ECU or PC comes when the engine is modified to make more power internally, and then the ECU or PC can be adjusted to make the most of those modifications.
There typically is some percentage of power increase available with these types of electronic controllers on a stock bike. At this time, I have no data to tell you exactly how much increase to expect on a UCE Bullet.
 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:30:48 am by ace.cafe »
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 03:32:16 pm
Hey Ace,
Thanks for the input.
If this is a clogged  injector, wouldn't the bike have sputtering at any speed rather than just at 65-70 mph where it maxes out?
Can adding a little bit of Techron help maybe to clean up any normal clogging? if there a paint from the tank that is clogging the fuel, this will have to flushed, I guess...

Anyways, I will go ahead and get the EFI pipe and EFI exhaust from Hitchcockmotorcycles
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ace.cafe

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Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 03:49:35 pm
Hey Ace,
Thanks for the input.
If this is a clogged  injector, wouldn't the bike have sputtering at any speed rather than just at 65-70 mph where it maxes out?
Can adding a little bit of Techron help maybe to clean up any normal clogging? if there a paint from the tank that is clogging the fuel, this will have to flushed, I guess...

Anyways, I will go ahead and get the EFI pipe and EFI exhaust from Hitchcockmotorcycles
Yes, it's possible that some additive like that could work.
It's not guaranteed that problems always will show up at all rpms. Speeds near max will often show up some things which can get by at lower loads. I don't know for sure what the problem is, but it seems to me that something is not right. I always try the easiest cures first.
It also seems that most UCE owners report that their bikes max out at around 80 or so. Maybe this thing with your bike maxing out at 70 might be indications of some issue. Perhaps a general check of things like your air filter condition and such.

I think that the exhaust should be good for a couple of ponies, and a reduction of excess weight.
At this time, I believe that it will be able to work with our Ace head work too, if you have any plans in that direction.
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Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 03:49:55 pm
........If this is a clogged  injector, wouldn't the bike have sputtering at any speed rather than just at 65-70 mph where it maxes out?........

modern injectors have four (sometimes more) orifices where fuel is emitted.  if one of those four is clogged, your bike might go lean only under high load.   The same is true for low fuel pressure to the injector. 
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Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 03:54:20 pm
It may also be worthwhile checking your fuel filter. It could cause those symptoms if it were dirty.
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Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 03:55:36 pm
With the EFI pipe from Hitchcock's, you will actually LOSE power unless you use the Power Commander.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack


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Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 04:36:46 pm
I can't recall anyone having a problem with an ECU engine sputtering regardless of the muffler and pipe on it. Power bands may change, but they still run good. You could possibly be having an electrical problem, too.
I would say you need a good checkout of your fuel system before spending a lot of money on the exhaust system. You could even put the stock one back on and see how that's running.
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Reply #8 on: March 12, 2013, 09:48:17 pm
The first thing I would do if my bike was sputtering at high speeds/loads would be to put a little Techron in the fuel tank and change my spark plug.
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Ducati Scotty

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Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 10:45:14 pm
Water in the fuel?  I think we've seen this symptom from that before.  Anyone else remember that?

Scott


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Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 01:31:57 am
Try Seafoam followed by Techron in the gas and see if it helps.
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #11 on: March 13, 2013, 06:54:38 am
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the inputs.
I have added Techron and took it out for a spin. One other thing that I have noticed is the speedometer is atleast 6 Mph off meaning if I am seeing 70 it is actually 76 Mph (measured using GPS); but it still sputters at 76 Mph.
Another observation is, while climbing a grade (around 3 to 4%) with the throttle fully open the bike was able to achieve only 60mph - no sputtering but just didnt make any difference in speed and stayed at 60mph
I will look into the spark plug and any electrical wiring issues. I did have a quick inspection of the air filter - looked pretty clean. I had cleaned it around 2000 miles back.
Any idea how many miles after adding Techron generally there is an improvement?
Thanks.
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wildbill

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Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 09:17:54 am
mine had a bad dead spot at 90 kph. after it almost stopped - stopped and wouldn't start it threw a cel. i found out the throttle position plug was not connected properly.
might be worth a check. it's near the neg cable lead from the battery.


ace.cafe

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Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 11:50:00 am
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the inputs.
I have added Techron and took it out for a spin. One other thing that I have noticed is the speedometer is atleast 6 Mph off meaning if I am seeing 70 it is actually 76 Mph (measured using GPS); but it still sputters at 76 Mph.
Another observation is, while climbing a grade (around 3 to 4%) with the throttle fully open the bike was able to achieve only 60mph - no sputtering but just didnt make any difference in speed and stayed at 60mph
I will look into the spark plug and any electrical wiring issues. I did have a quick inspection of the air filter - looked pretty clean. I had cleaned it around 2000 miles back.
Any idea how many miles after adding Techron generally there is an improvement?
Thanks.

What kind of air filter do you have in the bike?
A normal pleated paper air filter cannot be cleaned, it must be replaced. The pores in the paper get partially clogged, even if the surface is brushed/blown off.
If you have a K&N gauze filter or something like that, then that's a different story.
Problems with getting enough air are just as bad as not getting enough fuel, and can seem similar.

It seems your bike is not performing up to its full potential, compared to other UCE bikes out there. So, we need to get it figured out.
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 02:21:36 pm
Ace, the bike has K&N filter.
It does backfire once in a while too; when decelerating. In 12 mile ride at least 3 bangs! (hmmm does that read out right?!!  :D)...I had recently removed the exhaust put in exhaust sealer (high temp) at pipe and exhaust ...made sure the nut at the exhaust header is tight
I had adjusted the air bypass screw for adjusting the idle speed, to lower idle rpm...will this have any effect?
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ace.cafe

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Reply #15 on: March 13, 2013, 02:43:30 pm
Ace, the bike has K&N filter.
It does backfire once in a while too; when decelerating. In 12 mile ride at least 3 bangs! (hmmm does that read out right?!!  :D)...I had recently removed the exhaust put in exhaust sealer (high temp) at pipe and exhaust ...made sure the nut at the exhaust header is tight
I had adjusted the air bypass screw for adjusting the idle speed, to lower idle rpm...will this have any effect?

The air bypass screw may have an effect, especially when you experience backfiring on deceleration. That indicates lean condition with the throttle closed.
Also, an exhaust leak, if not completely repaired, can also cause lean condition and backfiring on deceleration.
Both of these things should be re-checked. The exhaust must have no leaking left.
The air screw should be put back into factory spec. If the idle is too high with the air screw returned to factory spec, then proceed to look for air leaks or other causes of high idle speed.
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mattsz

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Reply #16 on: March 13, 2013, 10:49:29 pm
The air screw should be put back into factory spec. If the idle is too high with the air screw returned to factory spec, then proceed to look for air leaks or other causes of high idle speed.

Factory spec for the air screw?  What is it?  My bike idled high, and I had to adjust the air screw one full turn, which I understand is a big change.  I don't have any other problems, but I'm curious...


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Reply #17 on: March 13, 2013, 10:59:28 pm
Sajiv,
I consistently got the deceleration bang with a Silman short bottle when the rpm was turned down to a nice slow thump.  Turning up the rpm back to the original higher setting completely eliminated the bang.

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ace.cafe

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Reply #18 on: March 14, 2013, 02:52:46 am
My understanding of the factory idle speed is that it should be somewhat above 900 rpm, so that the auto-decompressor swings out of the way and is not holding the exhaust valve open during idling operation.
With this mechanism involved, "slow thumping" idle is not recommended.
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Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 03:47:44 am
Agreed. There is no such thing as an iron barrel like slow thump for a UCE. Even turning the idle slightly below the excessively high rpm of the factory was my take on a slower thump and this consistently lead to backfiring. The ECU doesn't react fast enough under heavy deceleration to fully burn off the fuel. A bit more back pressure at the muffler or keeping the OEM idle setting will fix the problem.
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #20 on: March 14, 2013, 06:16:43 am
Hey Guys,

Update:
1. Added Techron Fuel Injector cleaner probably around 2 to 3 ounces in full tank of gas.
2. Adjusted the idle RPM to factory setting (approximately).

With these the backfiring is almost reduced considerably; but sputtering is still there at around 75 miles and climbing a hill with full throttle open is topped off at 55 mph (no sputtering)

I have checked for exhaust leak and do find a small gap at the place were the muffler/silencer (Silman short bottle) attaches to the stock exhaust pipe. Have put some high temp silicone exhaust sealer. Lets see if that would help sputtering...

I have ordered the EFI silencer and pipe from Hitchcock; I would first try the EFI silencer to stock pipe, see the performance and then add in the exhaust pipe to see the impact. I might also try first what Bare suggested to put the stock silencer back to see performance, then do the above.

Will keep you guys updated and many thanks to all for the inputs and suggestions...A great bunch of people here which makes this forum much more enjoyable (infact I check this forum more often than my facebook page!!)...  :)

Sajiv
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ace.cafe

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Reply #21 on: March 14, 2013, 11:48:45 am
Yep, you need to keep that idle speed high enough to release that decompressor.
If you don't, you will burn the exhaust valve from running with it held open when it is supposed to be closed.
The auto-decompressor works on centrifugal force, so if you don't get the idle speed up high enough to release it, it's going to keep that exhaust valve open.

What this means in plain language is that if you try to get a lower idle than the factory intended, you will burn your exhaust valve and have an expensive repair job.
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #22 on: March 14, 2013, 04:14:09 pm
Ace,

Is there any symptoms of a damaged exhaust valve that I verify without any special tools?
Maybe a compression test?

Also, at this point, I would like to do a good check on the bike - just to be sure things are working ok; what would be list and is there any order in which it would have to be done?

Thanks!
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ace.cafe

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Reply #23 on: March 14, 2013, 05:12:01 pm
Ace,

Is there any symptoms of a damaged exhaust valve that I verify without any special tools?
Maybe a compression test?

Also, at this point, I would like to do a good check on the bike - just to be sure things are working ok; what would be list and is there any order in which it would have to be done?

Thanks!
A compression test would normally be the way to determine the condition of the valve sealing ability.
However, with that auto-decompressor in there, it will let the pressure off every time it comes around.
So, you'd have to temporarily defeat that auto-decompressor to get a proper test.

A burnt exhaust valve could create the symptoms you described your bike having.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:18:09 pm by ace.cafe »
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Reply #24 on: March 14, 2013, 06:20:46 pm
I think stock idle spec is higher than 900RPM, around 1200 IIRC.  I think the auto decompressor is supposed to kick out at 750 but you sometimes need to give it a rev or two to get it to disengage, even if it's running at high idle.

If you have a strong battery and well behaved decompressor you can get a decent dry compression reading just turning it over with the electric start, I've done it.

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Reply #25 on: March 14, 2013, 11:32:37 pm
eda1
If you haven't replaced your spark plug with a new NGK BPR6ES, now's the time. :)
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #26 on: March 15, 2013, 02:15:27 am
eda1
If you haven't replaced your spark plug with a new NGK BPR6ES, now's the time. :)

Hey Jim,
Thanks! Yes I have changed it to NGK BPR6ES at first service; but I have put more than 10K miles with it.
I believe it should last for some time. But after replacing I haven't looked how it is colored. Maybe I should do that as well.
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #27 on: March 17, 2013, 06:28:13 am
Hi All,

I got a chance to remove the stock exhaust pipe and look into the exhaust port. It looked carbonized quite a bit (black deposit). Also, the gasket between the port and stock pipe was completely weathered or damaged (white in color). The valve stem also seems to have white deposit on it. I have tried my best to take some pictures to share here for some opinion.
I don't think what is seen in the picture is common; do I have to de-carbonize the engine? change the valve stem or seat? what is this white deposit on the valve stem (could this because of excessive heat)?

Any suggestions or pointers would be really helpful.

Thanks!
Sajiv
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ace.cafe

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Reply #28 on: March 17, 2013, 09:27:27 am
Not too strange.
Possibly a bit of an exhaust leak at the gasket.
The white deposits are not unusual to see on an exhaust valve.
There's not too much black deposits.  I have seen much more carbon in some exhaust ports.
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Reply #29 on: March 17, 2013, 01:10:07 pm
With the EFI pipe from Hitchcock's, you will actually LOSE power unless you use the Power Commander.

Jack - is there any hard evidence of this? I had the EFI muffler on my 2012 C5 with stock exhaust (header) pipe for some time, then changed out the header for the English made Hitchcock pipe, and felt that the bike ran ever so slightly better. Seat of the pants feel, no hard number evidence that there was actually a power gain. This with the stock air filter, the recommended NGK plug, etc., no other fueling changes.

I sold my RE at the end of riding season last year, but am feeling the tug towards anther one, I have a chance at a 2012 leftover (C5 Black/Chrome) at $500 off list. Identical bike to the one I sold....will have to go through all the mods again (there were many), but that was half the fun!
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Reply #30 on: March 17, 2013, 03:02:55 pm
foggy, the hard evidence I have is the EFI pipe with the Goldstar silencer only. I never ran the new pipe with the stock silencer. I used a 5 mile long grade Ive been up at least 50 times and know where I shifted into 4th and 5th gears then where I would have to downshift in each gear to make it to the top. It's a great test track for the bike. Your pipe/stock silencer combination may very well have improved your performance. I can only report on my results. Regarding the Power Commander, that info is a quote right out of the Hitchcock catalog. As we see and hear everday, " Your results may vary "
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ace.cafe

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Reply #31 on: March 17, 2013, 03:33:09 pm
Regarding this issue of exhaust systems and their effects on the power curve there is a direct relationship on the torque curve.
The torque peak is moved to a higher rpm when an exhaust header with a larger I.D. is used, and the torque peak is moved to a lower rpm when an exhaust header with a smaller I.D. is used.
This effect is because the larger I.D. pipe moves the exhaust stream a little bit slower than the smaller I.D. pipe, and this has an effect on scavenging of the cylinder.
And the result is that the larger I.D. pipe is more effective at the higher rpms where the exhaust stream moves more quickly at those rpms, and the scavenging becomes more effective at a higher rpm range than before. It is capable of moving the exhaust out better at higher rpms, but is slower at lower rpms.
Conversely, the smaller I.D. pipe works to scavenge better at the lower rpm, giving more torque down low, but loads up and becomes more restrictive at the higher rpms.
Consequently, the larger I.D. size of the Hitchcock's pipe(after the reducer) moves the torque curve up the rpm range by some amount, and thus there is slightly lower torque at any given rpm than previously, UNTIL it gets to a sufficiently high rpm where it begins to work in its range of efficiency, and then it will outperform the smaller I.D. pipe at rpms higher than that rpm.

So, it's a matter of tuning effects that the pipe diameter has on the torque curve. It's not so much that it produces "less" torque in an ultimate sense, but that it produces this torque in a different rpm range, and it will feel somewhat weaker in the lower rpms, but somewhat stronger in the top rpms.

Scavenging effects are dependent on the speed of the exhaust stream, so the pipe diameter plays a part in determining what rpms the exhaust speeds get moving quickly enough to reach peak efficiency in scavenging.
If the pipe is too small, the power above torque peak will fall off and be weaker from restriction.
If the pipe is too big, the power below torque peak will fall off and be weaker from poor scavenging from slow exhaust speed.
The pipe size needs to be suitable for the intended use of the motorcycle, and since it will be one size, it needs to have some sort of compromise to suit all rpms, or it will impact ride-ability.

It is common that modifications, even slight ones, which are intended to improve upper rpm power, will have at least some minor negative effects on the lower or lowest rpm torque. This is because for power production purposes, it is advantageous to move the torque curve higher in the rpm range where it can be multiplied with higher rpms to produce a higher horsepower output.

Horsepower= Torque x RPM/5252
The higher rpm that we peak the torque, the more hp we make.
The potential down-side is that it might weaken the low rpms some.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:40:56 pm by ace.cafe »
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #32 on: March 17, 2013, 03:48:38 pm
Not too strange.
Possibly a bit of an exhaust leak at the gasket.
The white deposits are not unusual to see on an exhaust valve.
There's not too much black deposits.  I have seen much more carbon in some exhaust ports.

Ace, do you think I can leave it as it is and not worry about the carbon deposit and the white deposit on the valve stem?

Thanks for the info!
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ace.cafe

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Reply #33 on: March 17, 2013, 03:56:56 pm
Ace, do you think I can leave it as it is and not worry about the carbon deposit and the white deposit on the valve stem?

Thanks for the info!

That's a loaded question!
I can't tell from the deposits on there if there is anything wrong with the sealing of the exhaust valve. So I could say, "Yeah, it looks fine", but you might have a burnt valve, and I can't tell by looking down the port. All it takes is a little burnt line across the sealing part of the valve head, where it sits on the valve seat.
So, my answer is "I don't know", but the stuff that I can see looks like you could put it back together and run it. Make sure that you get a good seal with the pipe into the head joint. You don't want any exhaust leaks at the head especially.

I'd say that if Ducati Scotty says it can get a good compression test with a good strong starter cranking, then that would be the thing to do.
Report the results, so we can see what it is.
Do the compression test with the throttle held fully open for the duration of the test, so that it gets full breathing during the test.
Then, we'll see. If the compression is low, then we can give it a wet test with about a half-teaspoon of oil squirted into the cylinder, and that will tell us if it is rings or valves(assuming the compression is low). If you have a burnt exhaust valve, the compression will not rise much with the oil added, but the reading will still be low.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 04:00:24 pm by ace.cafe »
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Jack Leis

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Reply #34 on: March 17, 2013, 03:58:26 pm
Ace, excellent explanation as always. We are privileged to have you on the forum. I guess I prefer my torque lower on the power band. I know the larger I.D. pipe will come in handy SOMEDAY !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack


ace.cafe

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Reply #35 on: March 18, 2013, 11:59:33 am
I have a photo of our modified exhaust port here, which isn't a great photo, but it shows the relative size of the outlet, and some of the port. The valve guide obviously was not installed when this pic was taken.
And the head is obviously upside down so that he could get light in the port.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 12:04:05 pm by ace.cafe »
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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 05:32:32 am
Hi Ace,

Thanks for all the input.
I will update you guys with the compression readout, once I have it done.

I have just installed the EFI pipe + exhaust will be taking her out for a ride soon; more update on that later...

Thanks everyone!

Sajiv
2011 RE C5 (@25K + miles)
2012 Honda NC700X 6-speed (sold @26K miles)
2013 BMW R1200RT (@43K + miles)


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eda1bulletc5

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Reply #38 on: May 15, 2013, 10:35:04 pm
That's a loaded question!
I can't tell from the deposits on there if there is anything wrong with the sealing of the exhaust valve. So I could say, "Yeah, it looks fine", but you might have a burnt valve, and I can't tell by looking down the port. All it takes is a little burnt line across the sealing part of the valve head, where it sits on the valve seat.
So, my answer is "I don't know", but the stuff that I can see looks like you could put it back together and run it. Make sure that you get a good seal with the pipe into the head joint. You don't want any exhaust leaks at the head especially.

I'd say that if Ducati Scotty says it can get a good compression test with a good strong starter cranking, then that would be the thing to do.
Report the results, so we can see what it is.
Do the compression test with the throttle held fully open for the duration of the test, so that it gets full breathing during the test.
Then, we'll see. If the compression is low, then we can give it a wet test with about a half-teaspoon of oil squirted into the cylinder, and that will tell us if it is rings or valves(assuming the compression is low). If you have a burnt exhaust valve, the compression will not rise much with the oil added, but the reading will still be low.

Hi Folks,
I just wanted to update you guys with some findings.
Here are the upgrades I have done;
1. Hitchcock exhaust pipe and silencer.
2. PowerCommander V with map from hitchcock for the above exhaust system and K&N OEM replacement air filter
3. Replaced stock air filter setup with a radiator tube 8" with ID of 1.75" with 48mm EMGO filter attached to one end and the other to the TB
  -- this setup only gives around 315cc as plenum volume; I think this has to be atleast the same as engine displacement or double (Ace had mentioned about the same in this forum)
  -- I see the mileage has reduced by 10%


Have put around 200 miles with this setup.

When taking spark plug for compression test, it was completely black (NGK BP6EXI); have used this for 11000 miles. Replaced it with a new SP and after around 75 miles removed the SP to find new one is also getting carbon deposit.
With the engine warmed up took compression test and readout was 150psi. Is this too high?
in any case I have added 4 ounce of Seafoam to the fuel tank - I am hoping some of the carbon deposit would get removed with Seafoam.

Any other thought with 150 psi result for compression result?

Also, with the new hitchcock exhaust system + PCV , there is not surging at full load. (as previously mentioned)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:58:21 pm by eda1bulletc5 »
2011 RE C5 (@25K + miles)
2012 Honda NC700X 6-speed (sold @26K miles)
2013 BMW R1200RT (@43K + miles)


Arizoni

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Reply #39 on: May 15, 2013, 11:47:49 pm
It sounds like it isn't getting enough air into the engine.
If it were mine, I would replace your modified intake with the stock one and see what happens.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


barenekd

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Reply #40 on: May 16, 2013, 12:52:04 am
the Enfield is very critical about the airflow. It needs to enter the the intake tube quite straight and smoothly. If there is any turbulence, it just doesn't like it and won't mix with the fuel properly.
You aren't the first first to have had this problem. Good luck with the venture.
Bare
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #41 on: May 16, 2013, 02:46:04 am
It sounds like it isn't getting enough air into the engine.
If it were mine, I would replace your modified intake with the stock one and see what happens.

  YUP.... The PCV -V is giving it to much fuel for the modifications you made.  Or at least down low when you shut your bike off, then checked the plug.  No way to really know unless you do some plug chops. I wouldn't rely on Hitchcocks canned map, It is likely not optimized for what you are doing and where you are at. If it is Hitchcocks map done in the UK, or at Dyno-jet HQ in Las Vegas? Location maters when tuning.....altitude  and etc.

  You really only have a few of options when tuning with a piggy back unit like yours.

 1.  Pull your hair out, playing with the fuel and ignition tables. Guessing and hoping you have it right..... You likely wont.

 2.  Spend another 300 or 400 bucks for a autotune. Weld in a bung on your header for the wide band o2 sensor that comes with it.  It's 18mm, unlike the stock 14mm.  Set your target AFR's in the various throttle positions and rpm ranges. Then have at it.... adjust here.....tweak there. Check you plugs and such.  Then after a long while of doing this.  You might be close.

 3.  Set up the bike the way you want , intake ... exhaust and such. Take it to a COMPETENT Dyno Jet  Dealer. And for likely less money then option 2. And MUCH less time... An hour or two ? Your bike will perform the way you want it to, within reason. Talk to the tech...... the results should be pretty significant. Certainly not as much fun as tuning it your self, but who has  twenty or thirty grand to stick one of those big dyno's in their garage?  And that is really the only way you are gonna know with EFI..... with any certainty anyway.


 
 
the Enfield is very critical about the airflow. It needs to enter the the intake tube quite straight and smoothly. If there is any turbulence, it just doesn't like it and won't mix with the fuel properly.
You aren't the first first to have had this problem. Good luck with the venture.
Bare


   
 We have a MAP sensor in our throttle bodies. It's sending voltage readings to the ECU based on  manifold  pressure..... positive and negative. It has a variable resister, that " deflects" depending on that manifold pressure. The ECU sends 5 volts to the sensor, and looks to see what the return voltage is through that resister. The ECU is looking for certain voltage readings based on load, then corrects fuel and timing.  If your beyond what the ECU is looking for..... You can correct or "Trick" that with the PC-V by adjusting your  AFR and Ignition.

 
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Arizoni

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Reply #42 on: May 16, 2013, 05:21:28 am
Hot damn!

Don't let those guys with the carburetors find out about this.  It sounds like more fun than changing out a couple of jets and needles with a lot more permutations and combinations to play with before it will run at all, let alone run right!  :o

They'll be eating their hearts out and fighting over who can get the next ECU/Fuel Injected bike to play with.  ;D ;D
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


gashousegorilla

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Reply #43 on: May 16, 2013, 05:48:41 am
Hot damn!

Don't let those guys with the carburetors find out about this.  It sounds like more fun than changing out a couple of jets and needles with a lot more permutations and combinations to play with before it will run at all, let alone run right!  :o

They'll be eating their hearts out and fighting over who can get the next ECU/Fuel Injected bike to play with.  ;D ;D


   LOL !  Yeah.... I use to be one of those guys.  EFI has got me sold.  Lets see... in real time, you can  adjust your fuel and timing at precise throttle positions and rpm's throughout the range, see how the bike reacts, under load, Where and when you want your power or economy, in real time on a computer screen. Then adjust and accept those changes if you want...... Why that's almost cheatin' !

 Then you can go a head, and make another map and switch between the two should you feel like it.  Heck ! Make one for economy and one for power.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:57:03 am by gashousegorilla »
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mattsz

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Reply #44 on: May 16, 2013, 10:10:59 am
1.  Pull your hair out, playing with the fuel and ignition tables. Guessing and hoping you have it right..... You likely wont.

 2.  Spend another 300 or 400 bucks for a autotune. Weld in a bung on your header for the wide band o2 sensor that comes with it.  It's 18mm, unlike the stock 14mm.  Set your target AFR's in the various throttle positions and rpm ranges. Then have at it.... adjust here.....tweak there. Check you plugs and such.  Then after a long while of doing this.  You might be close.

 3.  Set up the bike the way you want , intake ... exhaust and such. Take it to a COMPETENT Dyno Jet  Dealer. And for likely less money then option 2. And MUCH less time... An hour or two ? Your bike will perform the way you want it to, within reason. Talk to the tech...... the results should be pretty significant. Certainly not as much fun as tuning it your self, but who has  twenty or thirty grand to stick one of those big dyno's in their garage?  And that is really the only way you are gonna know with EFI..... with any certainty anyway.

And, your DIY directions in steps 1 and 2 make it sound so easy!!!   ;D


High On Octane

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Reply #45 on: May 16, 2013, 02:27:17 pm

   LOL !  Yeah.... I use to be one of those guys.  EFI has got me sold.  Lets see... in real time, you can  adjust your fuel and timing at precise throttle positions and rpm's throughout the range, see how the bike reacts, under load, Where and when you want your power or economy, in real time on a computer screen. Then adjust and accept those changes if you want...... Why that's almost cheatin' !

 Then you can go a head, and make another map and switch between the two should you feel like it.  Heck ! Make one for economy and one for power.

While EFI is the way to go these days, it's just too bad you have to spend thousands of dollars to get a good tune, and that doesn't even include new internals.  The whole needing a computer to tell the computer to tell the other smaller computers just seems asinine and tedious.  Don't get me wrong, if you have the equipment and know how, by all means, tune the shit out of your bike/car.  As far as I'm concerned MIL's are the Devil himself, and you can't have EFI without MIL's.

Scottie
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


gashousegorilla

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Reply #46 on: May 16, 2013, 02:56:49 pm
 
"And, your DIY directions in steps 1 and 2 make it sound so easy!!! '" 

#2 ain't THAT hard. Just expensive.  Sort of on the complexity scale of rejetting a carb, with trial and error and such. And as long as you keep the numbers on the fat side, you should be safe.  Rich is better then lean !  I'd rather foul a plug, then melt a head. And Dynojet knows that. Thats why the maps they develop are generally speaking, on the the more safe rich side of things....As we are likely seeing here.

 And it will get much easier as people start having maps made for the modifications they make. Then start sharing them. It's much easier to start off with a base map to work off of. Plug it into your PC or laptop, hit send map, then start playing.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:59:31 pm by gashousegorilla »
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Reply #47 on: May 16, 2013, 03:42:24 pm
I thought PC-V would adjust for altitude, temp etc by itself. This is more complicated than I thought it is.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:46:51 pm by 1 Thump »