[Rich Mintz]

Hi -- I have a semi-newbie question. I'm in my first 2000 miles of motorcycling but have extensive previous slow (<25mph) scooter and bicycle experience.

In MSF class we talked about and practiced countersteering, and I understand the logic -- pushing on the left handlebar turns the front wheel slightly to the right, but causes the bike to begin to lean left because of the effect of the angled front tire on traction behavior.  (Or something similar.)

But I've almost never had the opportunity to apply countersteering when riding my C5. Instead, I simply lean my body (usually just below the level of conscious awareness) in the direction I want the bike to lean, and it leans. Often handling is as simple as turning the handlebars, like on a bicycle or a car. At times I just look at the point I want the bike to go toward (and obviously something physical happens as a result, below my conscious awareness) and the bike goes there. (This is something my MSF instructor had us practice -- he said it was a method of handling the bike that would come in handy in urgent situations.)

So, no need to countersteer ... is this because the bike is so small (~300 pounds) and my loaded body weight is so large (~260 pounds) that moving my body around on the bike has an outsize effect on the lean?

[Arizoni]

You are countersteering whenever you change direction at speeds over 20 mph.  You just don't realize that your doing it.
 ( I have tried to figure out where the change occurs and as near as I can figure, at speeds below 15 mph the bike will turn in the same direction as the handlebars.  Between 15 and 20 mph it's hard to figure out which rule applies.  Over 20 mph all steering is done by countersteering.  Turning the handlebars left makes the motorcycle turn right.  Turning the handlebars right makes the motorcycle turn left.)

For normal riding above 20 mph the amount of countersteering needed to change direction is so slight it is almost imperceptible.

To understand what's happening let's say you want to turn to the right.
To do this, push on the right handlebar.
When you push on the right bar the motorcycle tire down at road level will turn left causing the tire at road level to move to the left. This will cause everything above the contact patch to start to fall to the right.
With the bike leaning to the right,  it will start turning to the right.
Now, by just straightening up the handlebars it will cause the tire at road height to move to the left a bit which will keep the bike in its lean to the right causing the bike to turn that way.

It's all very subtle.

It is a good thing to practice doing these maneuvers  by first making sure no one is around you.
Make sure the road is dry and there is no sand/dirt on it.
Then, picking some spot ahead that you want to avoid and a place closer where you want to start the turn start the turn.

You will end up actually doing two countersteering turns.  One to start the turn and one to reverse the turn so you are going straight again.

To start your turn to the right you will first push on the right handlebar.  The tire will move to the left and the bike will start to fall to the right.  For a normal turn you would straightening the bar to the center position to hold the bike in the turn but because you want to return to the direction you were traveling before you started this,  you will now push the bar on the left side more than normal.
This will cause the wheel at the contact patch to move to the right, causing the bike to come upright and then to start leaning to the left.
With the bike now leaning to the left it will start to turn that way.
If you do this correctly you will be going straight, then suddenly swerve to the right and then just as suddenly be traveling straight again.

Now that I've confused the hell out of you, a thought about the bike going where you look.

It will.  It is a subconscious thing and all cycle riders, whether they are on a bicycle or a motorcycle needs to be aware of it.

I first learned about this when I was riding a bicycle back in my grade school days.
When I realized my tires were about to go off of the asphalt into a 2 inch dropoff into the dirt I started looking down at my front tire to see where it was.
As I looked my eyes of course fixed on the drop off.
It was like I could feel a huge force trying to make my bike fall into that drop off and I literally had to fight it to keep from going off the road.
When I finally pulled my head out of my butt and changed my attention to the smooth asphalt down the road a ways, the force went away and I could easily turn the bike away from the danger.
Fighter pilots have been killed by fixing on a spot on the target and followed the killed plane into the ground.  It's the same thing.

Now that I've bored everyone with this I'll come to the point.
If you ever see an object in the road ahead of you, concentrate on something away from the object.  To the right or to the left doesn't matter.  Just don't concentrate on the object.

Using this knowledge along with countersteering can save you from a wreck.

[squire]

^ Ditto, you're always countersteering at any speed above a walking speed though you may not realze it. You learned when you were a kid on a bike. Lots of proof to back it up on the internet.

[Ducati Scotty]

+2.  Also, the C5 is a very quick handling bike.  It doesn't take much to get it to turn.  If you try countersteering you'll see how little it takes for a lot of movement.

Scott

[gremlin]

...........no need to countersteer ...

Um, no.

counter-steering is the muscle memory trick that children lean when they first start riding two-wheelers.

to prove this to yourself .....  sit bolt-upright on your C5.  Now, turn a corner.  (keeping your body in perfect alignment with the bike)  notice the pressure on your palms & figertips ?  it is "backwards" to what is happening to the handlebars.

there are a whole slew of explanations for this ......  some people will call it the gyro effect, others will go to great lengths to explain it in terms of traction forces and tire profiles...

either way .....  you are counter-steering - believe it or not.

[Rich Mintz]

You guys are all quite right -- I am making a subtle countersteering move (a push in the direction I want to go) without being aware of it. But it's so subtle it's hard to believe it's enough to make the bike respond!

[barenekd]

The best way to actually be aware of what countersteering is to practice it. GO on a twisty road and wait a little later than you normally would before you start a turn, then consciously countersteer into the turn. YOU have to turn sharper than you normally, so you need more steering input, then coming out of the turn again consciously countersteer and see how quickly the bike will straighten, or continue with it into an opposite and note the left to right (or right to left) turn change speed. Practice this until it becomes automatic to oversteer a bit. It really can save your butt, particularly when you find yourself in a target fixation mode. That one can happen to anyone, but if you just think "push," it will break the fixation and get you around the object.
Tricks we learn in road racing schools.
I've heard the gyro crap, I go with the "turn the wheel one way and the bike will fall over the other way" school of thought.
The steering in the RE is fairly light, but if you start riding cruiser crap or Ducatis, then you can get into heavier and slower steering and then you can really tell the necessity of countersteering to get any response out of them. That's why you see them going very slowly through the twisties, the cruisers anyway. The Ducatis just wear you out more quickly!
Bare

[Arizoni]

I've heard about the gyroscopic effects that come into play when a bike turns but knowing about them isn't really needed.  That's why I didn't mention them.

IMO, as long as the rider is aware of how to use countersteering to avoid pot holes, kids, dogs, and idiots pulling out of side streets they will probably get around the problems.

[Ducati Scotty]

I've heard about the gyroscopic effects that come into play when a bike turns but knowing about them isn't really needed.  That's why I didn't mention them.

IMO, as long as the rider is aware of how to use countersteering to avoid pot holes, kids, dogs, and idiots pulling out of side streets they will probably get around the problems.

+1.  You don't have to know how a microwave works to reheat your coffee.

Scott

[Ragmas]

The gyroscopic effect is what keeps the force travelling "down" the bike to the tires.  Think, if the bike is standing straight up gravity pulls the bike straight down.  Draw an imaginary line vertically from the top of the bike to the tire.  That is where the Gyro effect is "felt".  I explained this to a kid with the old "stand on a lazy suzan with a bicycle wheel" gag.  They had no idea what meant.   Your counter steering is the symbiotic effect needed to make bikes go round corners.  Fun stuff. 

Samgar

[Gypsyjon]

I have been riding motorcycles since 1964 and I still do not get this countersteering thing...last time I fell off I was 18 and bullet proof. It makes no sense to me. When I turn left, I look left and turn my front wheel Left!!! Not right.

[AgentX]

When I turn left, I look left and turn my front wheel Left!!! Not right.

No, you don't.

But you don't have to countersteer consciously; you may only be leaning over the bike.  As you lean the bike over, the countersteering, which is very subtle, happens automatically. 

You don't need to give handlebar input to turn; the lean and the countersteer are interdependent.  Leaning initiates countersteering, countersteering initiates a lean.  (Edit:  it was early when I wrote that...it's probably not technically possible as a motorcycle rider to lean without a little countersteering to initiate it, but I was just trying to illustrate a way to think about it that doesn't get confusing while you're on the road.  It's so intuitive at a minor level that you don't think about it at all, normally.)

Ride straight at 50mph.  Push forward on the left side handlebar.  Watch as you bank left.  But you were pushing the front wheel towards the right when you pushed on the left side handlebar.  It can't happen any other way.

[gremlin]

I have been riding motorcycles since 1964 and I still do not get this countersteering thing...last time I fell off I was 18 and bullet proof. It makes no sense to me. When I turn left, I look left and turn my front wheel Left!!! Not right.

next time you are in a left turn, notice the pressure you are exerting against the bars  (you will feel it in the palm of your left hand & fingers of your right hand) 

the wheel will be pointed left, but, you will be slightly twisting it in a "less-left" direction (or, countersteer)

[Rich Mintz]

Yeah, I paid careful attention while riding today, and you all are correct -- I am countersteering without realizing it.

To turn left, even if you "just lean," the first element of the lean involves pushing forward on the left handlebar -- that's HOW you get the lean to begin in the first place. Even if you "just lean your body left," part of that lean involves pushing on the left handlebar (turning the front wheel ever-so-slightly right) to unbalance the bike so that it will start to fall in the direction you want.

Good lesson -- thanks to all you smart people!

[BrashRooster]

I am always counter thinking.