[mattsz]

It's been quiet in the UCE section recently...

So I've been thinking about winter projects, and my planned fork oil replacement, which includes removing the forks, is foremost on my mind.  It leads me to ask about my front fender.

Some of you may recall that when I bought my bike and started putting some miles on it, evidence began to appear that the fender was rubbing against the fork tubes - I lost a fair amount of paint from the tube, which is the part I can see, and possibly also the edges of the fender, which I can't see.  I posted a pic a few months ago - it shows the right side, which is the worst, but I've got some paint missing from the left tube as well.



As I understand it, the bikes come crated from the factory with the front wheels and fenders un-mounted, so I'm led to believe that either, a) there is some manufacturing defect which causes these parts not to fit together correctly; b) the fork tubes were somehow not aligned properly at the factory when the front end was assembled; or c) the fender was not mounted properly when the dealer set it up.  Any of the above would, in my opinion, fall into the realm of warranty repair, and in fact Kevin Mahoney agree to as much when he saw one of my postings this summer.

Despite this, what I'm looking for is some advice about dealing with this fender.  I wouldn't normally think much about it, but I find myself in a situation where everything looks to me like it should, and yet, assuming there isn't some actual factory defect,  I've had two separate RE dealers screw up this fender mounting.  The original dealer produced the original problem, and my "first-service dealer" tried to realign the fender by loosening all the fender struts and retighten them, again and again, holding the nuts inside the fender with a wrench, and turning the screws outside the fender with a too-small screw driver, which chowdered the screw heads and scratched the paint around them.  So now I have scratched up fork tubes and fenders.

And if they can't do it right, I harbor concerns that I might not be able to, either.

I've read through Ducati Scotty's fork tutorial, and he mentions fender handling - specifically, in the reassembly stage, he says:

"Put the fender back on, it takes a little wiggling.  VERY IMPORTANT: Make sure the divots in the sides of the fenders are centered with the fork covers. If they're not they could rub off some paint."

Now this seems like it goes without saying, but say it he does.  My fender looks to me like its centered perfectly between the fork covers, both side-to-side and front-to-back.  The problem occurs when the forks travel - the alignment between the fender and forks changes and they chafe.

With everything assembled, I stand where I can see the problem area but I can't compress the forks to see what's happening.  I can stand on the bike, hold the front brake, and push down as hard as I can, but I don't weigh much and I don't get much movement, and anyway from that position I can't see anything.  So even though I intend to have all the scratched up bits replaced this coming season, I'd like to get a sense of what I should be doing to make sure this doesn't happen again.

My questions:

In your-all's experience, if everything looks even and centered, should the tubes and fender stay clear of each other?  Is it likely that when the forks travel, the alignment between them and the fender changes so that I might expect this chafe to occur despite them appearing ok at rest?

Would it be prudent to try to align the fender  with the forks either partially or fully compressed?  I could mechanically compress them, with tie-down straps perhaps, and then try to align everything.  Part of the problem is when the forks are fully extended, the tubes hover above the fender "cutouts", so it's difficult to really tell if everything is truly centered.

Is it possible that the fork tube is not installed correctly?  I seem to recall somebody suggesting that cardboard from a paper-towel roll could be inserted between the tube and fork leg to act as an alignment spacer.

Any advice would be appreciated!  Well, any advice about fender alignment...

[JVS]

Very sorry to hear about that, Mattsz. Even after two dealers the problem is still persistent and the careless tightening and subsequent scratching of the struts etc. This is not a good look..

The fender and the fork tube cover should not touch each other in any case, even with compression etc. On my B5, they were evenly set up. I removed the fender once for the fork oil change and I put it back on in the original position. Yet, it is perfectly fine, the groove/space on either side of the fender allows the fork tube to freely travel.

In my humble opinion, the issue must be because of misaligned/improperly installed struts. Looking at the picture, I think you may need to forcibly bend a couple of struts so that the fender moves a bit forward-ish, and fits perfectly with the in-dents/grooves on the fender. You may need to loosen the struts yourself and try to align it up. If the dealers weren't able to sort this out, then I'm not sure what else might be causing this.

I have attached a few photos of my B5's fender for your reference. You might be able to spot a difference or two. Other members will have a better insight on this. Hope everything is sorted out for you. Good luck.

[mattsz]

Thanks JVS-

Just to clarify - the first dealer did the setup.  It's likely they didn't know about the problem - at least I hope not!  The bike had 10 miles on it, and I didn't notice a problem when I picked up the bike.  So I didn't mean to imply that the selling dealer tried to fix and and couldn't.  I first noticed it after a couple of hundred miles.

The second dealer tried to adjust it.  I'm not sure why, since it was already decided to replace the fender and fork tubes, under warranty.  So in that sense he didn't really do any harm, but he treated a number of other "first service" jobs with equal aplomb, and I won't return to him.  But I must say that I'm not sure if his adjustments have changed anything.  For all I know, it no longer rubs, and I'm simply seeing the damage already done.

I can't see what's happening while the movement occurs.  When I look closely at the alignment, it seems ok, but the tubes don't reach down to the base of the fender, so it's hard to know since I can't see where the rubbing happens.

I'm hesitant to be too hard on anybody about it, since from the beginning it looked to me like it should have lined up just fine.  If I had installed that fender, I could easily have done it the same.  How can I prevent this?

[barenekd]

Matt
The only reason I could think of that your fender would shift is that the forks aren't aligned properly. I would loosen the fender strut bolts then the axle pinch bolt and axle nut. Grab the end of the axle with a wrench and rotate it to makes sure it's loose. Then I would take it off the center stand, get on it, grab the front brake and rock it back and forth as hard as your skinny ass can handle it! You should be able to get a fair amount of travel out of it if it's aligned. Once you think everything is aligned, tighten everything back up and see how it works.
Bare

[mattsz]

Bare-

I don't think anything shifted from being correctly aligned to misaligned - I think the fender was incorrectly installed and not checked, or not noticed.  I put about 60 miles on right quick, and I noticed the scuffed fork tubes a day or two later.

I don't see anything in Ducati Scotty's C5 fork tutorial about making sure the forks are aligned properly, but I don't see what it could hurt.  Even with my skinny ass (thanks for noticing!) I can get some decent action going in the forks, I just can't see the problem area while I'm a-doin' it.

Loosening the fender supports and axle, then energetically "exercising" the forks is going to change their alignment?  It may, but I sure don't understand why.  I'll certainly give it a try, since I will be doing all of those things anyway when I change the fork oil.  But I will be disassembling it all to do that job before I ride it again.  And anyway, as I mentioned - even with the problem revealing itself with scratched-up paint, with the bike at rest it looks like everything should be fine...

[Ducati Scotty]

Before you align the fender you must align the slider covers.  Liken the bolt that holds the slider cover and turn signal.  Cut a cardboard tube (toilet paper, paper towel) in half lengthwise. Slide each half between the slider and cover, on in front and one in back. This should be a snug fit.  Tighten the bolt, remove the cardboard.  Do the other side.  NOW center the fender.

Scott

[mattsz]

This sounds familiar - and now I see that you, Scotty, were the one who suggested it waaaaay back at the end of August.

How much leeway is there on this cover adjustment?  Could one fudge the covers slightly to the outside and gain some extra clearance for the fender?

Just thinkin' out loud...

[Ducati Scotty]

Maybe a bit.  You need to have the covers set so the don't rub the sliders. If you can bounce the bike without the fender and there's no rubbing, you're ok.  Then you just need them set the same front to back on both sides so they line up with the fender. 

Scott

[barenekd]

Loosening the fender supports and axle, then energetically "exercising" the forks is going to change their alignment?  It may, but I sure don't understand why.

If the forks aren't perpendicular to each other which can be caused by the by the axle being tightened pulling the forks too close together or tweaked a little will cause the whole assembly to be pushed out of square and change the clearances as the forks rise and fall. Bouncing them with everything loose will tend to square them up.
Bare

[gremlin]

I've been watching this thread with keen interest.  I also have the misfortune of scratched paint on my tubes & front fender.

However .....  a close examination leads me to believe this is the cumulative result of a number of design defects.

Loose tolerances in the bodyshop is the primary defect at play here.  If you doubt that, just browse through the Hitchcocks catalog and look at their fitment disclaimer for RE exhausts.

Additional defects that come into play are:

1. forks too small diameter - allows flexing under load.
2. lack of a fork brace to maintain axle geometry.
3. vertical rise from mounting screws to fender allow side-to-side vibration response.


When I take my forks apart to change their oil, I'll be applying either teflon or delrin sheeting to the inside of the tubes.

[mattsz]

Interesting that you have the same issue, Gremlin.  I haven't heard anyone else complain of it.  Also interesting that you also have a B5 - doesn't it appear that the B5 and C5 share the same front end?

I plan to get in touch with a dealer who hopefully will be willing to work with me in getting these parts replaced.  I'll be curious to see what they find.  Meanwhile, I'm working toward figuring out what's going on...

[FiRE Comms]

Matt you definitely are not alone with this issue, I have the same problem.  Significant paint removal on the starboard fork, light scraping on the port side...  loosening bouncing and re-tightening seemed to fix the cause, unfortunately the forks are chewed up do to dealer negligence... 

[mattsz]

And, FiRE Comms, it appears you have the C5.  Kevin Mahoney took one look at the photos of mine and said, "warranty repair."  I wonder if our dealers need some education on how to assemble these bikes?  It would save them, and us, a lot of time, money and aggravation...

[gremlin]

.............doesn't it appear that the B5 and C5 share the same front end?........

The original run of C5 had an 18 inch front wheel, so, I suspect the fender may be different. 

[gremlin]

..........Kevin Mahoney took one look at the photos of mine and said, "warranty repair." ........

Wow, that is a bold statement.   Wish I could get the same kind of definitive response about the fuel tank badge on mine .....   Even after posting photos.

[mattsz]

Gremlin-

See my addition to your "B5 tank badge misalignment" thread:

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,15703.0.html

[Ducati Scotty]

Once I aligned mine they never scraped again.  I've also aligned several others with no issues.  I think there's enough room for usual front end flex without scraping, though I'm sure there are a few that are out of spec and may need a little massaging.  Hand made bikes

I think the primary problem is improper setup.  As mentioned, you need to make sure the tubes are parallel, then loosen all the structural fittings and do a few bounces to align things, then tighten.  AFTER all that you need to align the slider covers, then the fender.  I'm betting most shops don't know this and just throw the front wheel on and send it out.  I would guess most do the loose bounce, that's standard practice, but I don't know if it's stated that all covered forks and strutted fenders should be checked for alignment.  If not, a bulletin should go out.

The G5 is a different animal, no slider covers and the fender  bolts right to the fork.  Not nearly as critical to check alignment.  Over the years various bikes have used struts while others had gators and a G5 like fender.

Scott

[mattsz]

I plan to start the warranty replacement process right after the new year - it could take awhile for replacement parts!  Fortunately, I can still ride the bike while I wait.  I think that once I have convinced the dealer that I need new parts (I hope to do it "long distance" - the closer dealer I will no longer work with has seen it in person and "approved" the replacement), I will get some cheap black paint, or maybe even some other color paint, or even some other material, and re-coat the damaged bits and experiment with adjustments to see whether I can manage it.  If my fresh coatings don't scratch off...

[mattsz]

Update...

I changed my fork oil today; naturally I worked on the fender alignment!

I believe that the primary problem with my fender was that the covering tubes weren't properly aligned.  The scratches on the tube and fender show that the inboard external side of the right tube was rubbing hard against the fender; when I removed the fork, I could see that the outboard internal side of the same tube was rubbing hard against the fork - hidden damage I couldn't see until I removed the fork.  The tube was clearly "leaning in" at the bottom.

Because I couldn't figure out how to remove the covers without dropping the stem, I decided just to see if I could properly align the old parts and save the new part installation for another day.  I have since heard from Ron Greene who says there is indeed a trick to removing them without dropping the stem, but I haven't spoken to him yet!  Anyway...

I used Scotty's trick of cutting up a cardboard paper towel roll - I ended up stacking them to force the tubes into position, tightening the pinch bolts, then removing the cardboard.  After two or three tries, I got them both so two layers of cardboard fit with even friction all the way around.

Then I put the fender on - it looked better already, but it is still very difficult to tell from the top.  But since the front wheel was off, I laid on my back under the fender and looked up - perfect view!  It's easy to visually compare the clearance on both sides from the bottom!  Here's a pic:



My two eyes are far enough apart that it's easy to see both tubes above the fender, but the camera has only one eye (the lens), so it doesn't see both sides at the same time very well in the above.

The right tube:



The left tube:



Since the fender stays seem to have very little play at the bolts which hold them to the forks, I tightened them up first, which got me close.  The fender was still leaning a bit right, so I wedged a dry, some-what hard kitchen sponge between the fender and the right tube, which forced the fender left.  I tightened everything up, removed the sponge, the fender sprang back just a bit and now seems to be right on center.  I can't see any evidence of rubbing, but I couldn't see the actual rubbing before anyway, only the resulting scratches.  I'll put some tape or something on the fender and see if it rubs, but I'm pretty confident I've got it lined up...

By the way, the nuts that go on the screws that hold the fender to the stays are a strange size, on my bike at least.  No metric or inch wrenches or sockets I have would fit it.  I had to use an adjustable wrench...

[Ducati Scotty]

You may want to check the alignment again after you mount the wheel.  Mount it loosely, bounce the front a few times to let things self align, then tighten up the wheel.  Then check the fender again.  The axle bolt and hub will exert far more force on the front end than the fender stays.  The cover tubes should be good as is, they center over the slider tubes.  Just check the fender relative to them.

Nice job you're doing!

Scott

[mattsz]

I have since heard from Ron Greene who says there is indeed a trick to removing them without dropping the stem, but I haven't spoken to him yet!

False alarm.  Apparently Ron thought I was doing something different - he confirms that the stem must be lowered to remove the covers, as in "be careful not to lose the ball bearings".  I'll wait until I need to maintain the bearings to replace the covers...

Unless someone here knows of another trick?

[Ducati Scotty]

The trick: worry less, ride more

[D the D]

Another trick: Pay a professional to deal with it.

[Ducati Scotty]

I never seem to be able to learn that one...

[Boots]

Mattsz, I have the same wear/rub marks on my B5 front forks and recall reading a thread a while back where our Royal Enfield Forum benefactor was displeased with the setup being done on the bikes, resulting in said marks.

Does it bug me? Sure. A I worried about it? Not too much.

Cheers!

[mattsz]

Boots - I'm not worried about it either... it doesn't affect my riding one little bit!  But if it bugs you, now you know that it's pretty easy to adjust if you ever want to.  Just get some cardboard shims to check the cover tube alignment, and turn a few screws...

[hortoncode3]

While I haven't had this particular issue on my '09 B5 military I have had an issue with a fender/tire rub after I changed to the  Dunlops. I noticed a rub on only one side of the tire, however...my dealer expertly removed the offending portion of the fender brace, while preserving the integrity of the brace and i'm on the road again!

[Boots]

Mattsz,

I just listened to your Hurdy Gurdy sound files and loved them, especially the waltz. Great! I play the diatonic button accordion, terribly, and can appreciate the sound.  It's medieval, but also French country.