[palace15]

Options
After the 8000 miles and what appears to be spragclutch problems, which to be honest I find totally unacceptable I now face the following options;
Get rid and go Jap
Another engine with kickstart(Which ones fit a 2010 C5?)
A pair of crancases to rebuild my internals into, thus getting a kickstart.

In the car world they would never get away with a common fault like this, but we(motorcyclists) have to accept it as the norm,......Why?

[ace.cafe]

Well, you could just fix the sprag clutch, if that is what's broken.
It doesn't really affect running. Just starting.
And I'd also check out auto-decompressor in the exhaust cam for proper function. If that is working, then the sprag system should be mostly protected from damage.
Probably only a few hundred dollars to fix the sprag system, if that is what it is.

[1 Thump]

Or a few hundred to add a kick starter. Think about it, never have to worry about the sprag again.

[tooseevee]

Well, you could just fix the sprag clutch, if that is what's broken.
It doesn't really affect running. Just starting.
And I'd also check out auto-decompressor in the exhaust cam for proper function. If that is working, then the sprag system should be mostly protected from damage.
Probably only a few hundred dollars to fix the sprag system, if that is what it is.

           You just reminded me of a question I meant to ask two years ago & I hope nobody minds if I ask it here:

           2008 AVL Classic, 600 miles, never use the electric start (I've used it maybe 4 times all told), lever-operated cam that holds the exh valve open, BUT:

          IF I DO use it, should I be holding pressure on the decomp lever 'til it starts to prevent that horrible sprag noise from escaping?

           (The only time I MIGHT use the ES would be if I killed it in a tricky traffic sitcheeation).

               

[GreenMachine]

I had my reservations when Enfield were putting out c5's without a kickstart..Some people think its a complete waste of time to have both but I always thought the electric start feature was never engineered correctly into this particular engine design ..I would however spend the money and repair it....Why? Well we're attracted to the beauty and simplicity of this specific machine but that seems to come at a cost/like most things...It does appear that the newer mix  have both starting systems again with a improved sprag.. If you want more fun - try a iron,,,I have a moderate leak of type f I need to fix and some other issues that require addressing for next year..Right now I need to finish my coffee, shower and go out and vote...Good luck with the repair and love your trip reports ..GM

[Ducati Scotty]

+1.  You already have the sprag, may as well get it put in.  The iron barrels and AVLs had lots of problems with the sprag, the UCEs have only had a handful.  We're not special, some older Ducatis and BMWs ate them regularly as well.

Putting in the sprag should only take an hour or so.  Why tear the whole engine apart and spend hundreds more on parts to add the kicker?   Just get it running again and see how you feel in 300 more miles.

Scott

[palace15]

Or a few hundred to add a kick starter. Think about it, never have to worry about the sprag again.

I would love a 'kicker' but was told when I enquired whilst in India that I would need a new crankcase.

[palace15]

+1.  You already have the sprag, may as well get it put in.  The iron barrels and AVLs had lots of problems with the sprag, the UCEs have only had a handful.  We're not special, some older Ducatis and BMWs ate them regularly as well.

Putting in the sprag should only take an hour or so.  Why tear the whole engine apart and spend hundreds more on parts to add the kicker?   Just get it running again and see how you feel in 300 more miles.

Scott

I am too old/unfit/lazy should the sprag ever go kaput whilst in Europe to bumpstart the machine, 8000miles is a bad joke for this problem, so now I have the noises what happens should I choose to ignore it as its only for a few seconds till the motor fires, a kickstart at whatever cost as got to be peace of mind and make the bike more reliable.


Has anyone ever fitted a kickstart to one of these, and do ALL types of UCE/EFI motors fit the C5 frame?

[Ducati Scotty]

Do not ignore it, it will get worse and it will fail for sure.  I understand your reasons for wanting the kicker, it makes sense.  No one I know of has retrofitted one yet.  As far as I know the crankcase is the same.  You'll need all the kicker parts, a new right side outer case with a hole and seal for the kicker to stick out, and a full tear down to install it all.  This has been discussed here though no one has done it.  There aren't all that many parts but there is plenty of labor involved.

Scott

[LarsBloodbeard]

My 2 cents... Electric starter systems will fail no matter what vehicle you're talking about.  I would say that's the most frequent thing I've had to fix on all my older vehicles.  If specifically the sprag repeatedly fails then that does seem like an engineering fault though.

Kickers are infinitely more reliable.  The only thing that breaks on a kicker is your foot!  If you're willing to put in the effort or money, I'd say go for it.  Especially if you keep both.  Nothing beats redundancy.

[ace.cafe]

           You just reminded me of a question I meant to ask two years ago & I hope nobody minds if I ask it here:

           2008 AVL Classic, 600 miles, never use the electric start (I've used it maybe 4 times all told), lever-operated cam that holds the exh valve open, BUT:

          IF I DO use it, should I be holding pressure on the decomp lever 'til it starts to prevent that horrible sprag noise from escaping?

           (The only time I MIGHT use the ES would be if I killed it in a tricky traffic sitcheeation).

             

It has been suggested that spinning up the engine with the ES while the decompressor is open, and then closing it for actual starting while it's spinning, will help to prevent kickbacks.

Opening the decompressor when turning the engine off helps to prevent the inertia of the crank from rotating up against a closed cylinder that has compression, and being forced backward(roll-back) if it can't overcome that compression in the cylinder.

Anything that can push the sprag backward can damage it. The decompressor can help avoid this damage when used in a manner to protect the sprag.
The problem is that the AVL decompressor is actually a valve-lifter type, and isn't the most effective decompressor around for these purposes.

[tooseevee]

Opening the decompressor when turning the engine off helps to prevent the inertia of the crank from rotating up against a closed cylinder that has compression, and being forced backward(roll-back) if it can't overcome that compression in the cylinder.

The problem is that the AVL decompressor is actually a valve-lifter type, and isn't the most effective decompressor around for these purposes.

             I made it a habit from the beginning to always kill the engine that way. Pulling the lever just an inch or so shuts it down immediately. Then key off.

[barenekd]

If I had a manual decompressor on my bike, I would use it to get the engine spinning with the ES, then release it so the engine can start properly. I like to get the engine spinning past the first compression before I'd release it.
I've actually been thinking of pulling the autodecompressor out of my G5 and installing a manual one.
Never have liked auto decompressors
Bare

[mattsz]

I've actually been thinking of pulling the autodecompressor out of my G5 and installing a manual one.
Bare

Bare - you've got my attention.  Such a thing is possible in our new EFI engines?    Where would you put the "manual bi-starter"? 

[barenekd]

There is a hole cast in the right side of the head down to a flat that is/was used for dual plugs and compression releases. Just drill and tap that face to a spark plug size hole and screw the compression release in.
The biggest problem is find a spot to put the release handle! There's not a whole lot of room on the bars.
Bare

[LarsBloodbeard]

Bare, there are compression release levers you can mount on the bottom of your clutch bracket.  It basically replaces the bottom clamp.

[LarsBloodbeard]

Like this:

[tooseevee]

Like this:

            What a NEAT idea! Very neat.

[Ducati Scotty]

You're going to drill a hole in a perfectly good engine?  That just doesn't make any sense!

[GlennF]

You can also use the kicker to get the piston to just before TDC before hitting the ES button.

[barenekd]

You can also use the kicker to get the piston to just before TDC before hitting the ES button.

If you're going to kick it up there, you should kick it just PAST TDC, so you don't put that initial big load on the ES.
The reason I would rather have the manual one is that it would be far easier to kick it past TDC when you're kick starting it. As it is, nudging it past TDC is a bit of a PITA.
I don't usually worry about the ES, frankly. It goes from wherever I push the button. The comment on the previous was for those who do.
Bare

[tooseevee]

You're going to drill a hole in a perfectly good engine?  That just doesn't make any sense!

            Of course I wouldn't. I thought the LEVER was a neat idea.

[barenekd]

You're going to drill a hole in a perfectly good engine?  That just doesn't make any sense!

Show me a perfectly good engine!
I'd drill a hole in an Enfield. The hardest part has already been done by them. They used to drill holes there themselves. It's an "Open" invitation!
Bare

[Ducati Scotty]

I guess you called me out.  I'm a constant tinkerer.  My wife finds it amazing how much time I spend working on a motorcycle that's not even broken.

Some people can leave well enough alone.  I don't know any of them personally

Scott

[jartist]

I am totally intrigued by the manual decompression idea even though my auto decompression works fine.  My sprag slips at times and I think the only thing that makes me want to leave the sprag in there is that the auto decompressor lets the compression down too slow which makes the kickstarts take too long to set up if you stall out at a light.

[barenekd]

My wife finds it amazing how much time I spend working on a motorcycle that's not even broken.

Yeah, my wife is always asking me what's wrong with that bike? you're always working on it. It must not be very good.
And I tell  her, Nothings wrong with it. I just tinker with it because it makes me happy. If it wasn't that, I'd be building model airplanes or something else.
Why is she vacuuming all the time? Drives me nuts. She's obsessed with the vacuum cleaner
Bare.

[Ducati Scotty]

Nobody in my house is osessed with the vacuum cleaner, and I think that's fine

[ADB]

My dogs are obsessed w/ mine..does that count?

[ace.cafe]

If you did it just right, you could install the same manual decompressor that the Iron Barrel bikes use. It goes in that same place where you are talking about drilling that hole. And the Iron Barrels already have a left side switch cluster that already has the decompressor lever built in to it.

And if you did it just right, you could drill the little vent outlet for the decompressor that vents into the exhaust port, just like the Iron Barrel does.

[Ducati Scotty]

Will triggering a manual decompressor while the engine is running kill it?  I could swear that's how my friend's moped worked when I was a kid.

Scott

[tooseevee]

Will triggering a manual decompressor while the engine is running kill it?  I could swear that's how my friend's moped worked when I was a kid.
Scott

           That's how I shut my AVL down every time.

[ace.cafe]

Will triggering a manual decompressor while the engine is running kill it?  I could swear that's how my friend's moped worked when I was a kid.

Scott

Yes. It will cause the engine to stop running.