Author Topic: Freedom:1 Big Brother: 0  (Read 2923 times)

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AgentX

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Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 10:45:56 am
Right now he technically has "refuge," not asylum.  If and when he gets to Ecuador, then they can grant him asylum.

I seriously doubt Britain would assault the embassy of another sovereign country.  Sounds like grandstanding by the Ecuadoreans, and the sensationalist URL (former headline, I am assuming, until they decided or were pressured into acting like semi-responsible journalists) isn't even broached in the actual article.


Maturin

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Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 03:42:56 pm
I´m not a big fan of Mr. Assange, however I really apprechiate his work for Wikileaks. I truthfully respect everyone who fights for King and fatherland, but war crimes have to be pursued and punished. Wikileaks put a lot of pressure to the ones who did evil in the name of their countries, and so I´m thankfull for that.
I also deeply respect Britains liberal and democratic tradition, that is so much older and - so I thought - stronger than the traditions of my own country.
I´m shocked to read, that British diplomats threatened to storm the Ecuadorian embassy. This is not tolerable. I sincerly hope that this doesn´t reflect the way the British government is thinking about this issue, and that they will take stock of themselves and think before running into a disaster. Best regards
Maturin
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ace.cafe

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Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 03:51:41 pm
What I don't get about this is why the Brits are getting involved.
Supposedly, Assange has some warrants in Sweden, and he's going to Ecuador.

So, why are the Brits threatening to storm the embassy?
What's their beef?


Maturin

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Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 04:25:09 pm
What I don't get about this is why the Brits are getting involved.
Supposedly, Assange has some warrants in Sweden, and he's going to Ecuador.

So, why are the Brits threatening to storm the embassy?
What's their beef?

Rumors are widespread. It is said that Sweden acts only on the behalf of the US who wants him handed over in order to put him in front of a military court. Many Questions, of course. Sweden helped the US in several similar extradition cases in the past, and the Swedish allegations are somewhat weak - they weren´t able to press charges yet. The whole thing is about consensual intercourse, but two women accuse him of having removed the condom in the meantime. I really don´t want to talk down rape in any way, but Sweden is the only country on this planet where this is considered to be  a crime - not to mention how hard it will be to proove that.
Britain is involved because Wikileak´s basis is London and Assange lives there. After the release of thousands od documents there was a lot of pressure on wikileaks, mainly from the US, but also from parts of his own staff who maligned his character and narcism. Many important people left wikileaks, and due to the blocking of their credit card accounts their finances went bang.
It is suspected that the allegations against Assange are fabricated to finish him off. However, the whole mess shows that the affair is considered to be extraodinary important by the British government, who claim to be determined to hand Assange over to the Swedes. But storming embassies is not the standard procedure for dealing with suspects. Regards
Maturin
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:29:11 pm by Maturin »
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The Garbone

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Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 07:25:01 pm
There is no telling how many lives that scumbag has cost and who they were.  A lot of what was leaked has most likely not been aired to the general public and the repercussions will not be discussed as not to compromise whatever is left.   

The US and a lot of European nations most assuredly work together in NATO and such and he probably compromised a lot of different networks.   It also is not only him but information they can get out of him about his sources etc.   

I hope we get our hands on him, suck every last bit of information out of him and then make him disappear forever.
Gary
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GlennF

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Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 07:28:40 pm
Crimes against the Reich cannot go unpunished.


The Garbone

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Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 07:36:02 pm
Ya, because covert operations against groups that fly airliners into buildings full of inocent people are a bad thing.  :o
Gary
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AgentX

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Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 01:04:17 am
Tom:  Under some sort of mutual legal assistance treaty, Britain has obligations to the Swedes to extradite.  If they fail to do so, the Swedes will reciprocate when it's time to extradite a wanted British citizen, and refuse other sorts of legal assistance as well.

I am unaware of the independent verification of claims of 'threats' by the Brits against the Ecuadorean embassy.  I do believe, however, the Brits have a law passed in the wake of Libyan terrorists taking refuge at that embassy...the law apparently tries to give the British the power to violate the embassy's protections in order to pursue a wanted person.

It's probable the Brits sent a diplomatic note informing the Ecuadoreans that Assange is a wanted person and requesting cooperation in rendering him to the authorities.


Lwt Big Cheese

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Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 03:00:05 am
There is no telling how many lives that scumbag has cost and who they were.  A lot of what was leaked has most likely not been aired to the general public and the repercussions will not be discussed as not to compromise whatever is left.   

[deleted]

I hope we get our hands on him, suck every last bit of information out of him and then make him disappear forever.

Oh dear , oh dear. The charges are trumped up so they can get him in to custody. Swedens rape charges include leering at someone, so impossible to prove. The fear is that one he goes to Sweden there will be pressure on the Swedes to hand him over to the US. If he had caused the death of others then he would be charged accordingly - he hasn't

The US government have stated that NO lives have been lost by the leaks. They are upset because their illegal actions around the world have been exposed to the world.

As ever, in the land of the free the last thing you have is free speech!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 03:16:44 am by Lwt Big Cheese »
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Lwt Big Cheese

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Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 03:19:31 am
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AgentX

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Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 03:56:35 am
This is helpful and surprisingly accurate as far as I know:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/9479711/QandA-Julian-Assange-Ecuadorean-embassy-dispute.html

Using a diplomatic pouch to extract him from the embassy of Ecuador, however, also contravenes international law and were the Brits to break into the pouch, there's little recourse for Ecuador.  Israelis tried to smuggle a drugged, kidnapped Palestinian terror suspect out of England via a diplomatic pouch (crate) and were caught by British border authorities.

Here's a link to a story including the actual text of the "threat" by Britain. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/9478896/Wikileaks-Government-threatens-to-take-Julian-Assange-out-of-Ecuadors-embassy.html

Like I thought, it was a mention of the law they could employ to enter the premises, by revoking the dip status of the facility.  Sketchy under the Vienna Conventions depending on how it's done and likely to end up with far too much blowback for them to undertake it.

There's no way for Assange to leave the premesis and take advantage of asylum in Ecuador, so the grandstanding continues on both sides.  The Brits would be wise just wait it out, and monitor the comings and goings of Ecuador's diplomatic vehicles.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 04:03:38 am by AgentX »


redcat

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Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 11:48:50 am
I doubt Britain will force their way into a foreign embassy, as it would endanger British diplomats world wide. As far the "crimes" of Assange, it is now the way of the world right or wrong.
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Maturin

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Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 03:59:11 am
I hope we get our hands on him, suck every last bit of information out of him and then make him disappear forever.

The good ones are not allowed to use the methods of the bad ones. If they do, they´re not the good ones anymore. Savvy?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 04:47:56 am by Maturin »
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Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 06:47:37 am
I think he might live a long...not so happy life in that cage...er building. If he leaves he is screwed.

What happens if he has a sex change then changes his name?   Maybe julie arseole ??? ???


redcat

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Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 07:56:26 am
There is a difference between documents that are classified to protect State secrets vital to National security and those that are classified to spare Government embarassing press and or investigations, or another way to put it ,documents classified to keep the American People in the dark.
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The Garbone

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Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 04:01:07 pm
My understanding is that slice (Manning) and Assuange dumped a bunch of message traffic without much filtering.

Even if some things in message traffic seem to be not so important a lot of things can be gleaned .

The Japanese lost at midway due to communications about a water treatment plant.  The Germans in the north Atlantic lost due to not only the hedgehog but the fact that their communications were compromised. 
There is a doctor in Pakistan that has been sent to prison because he helped the U.S. get Bin Laden, his name was released in a similar leak. 
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GlennF

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Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 05:52:15 pm
Gustav Gilbert interviewing Herman Goring:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.


The_Rigger

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Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 12:30:26 am
I seriously doubt Britain would assault the embassy of another sovereign country.

I don't.
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The_Rigger

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Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 12:36:15 am
There is no telling how many lives that scumbag has cost and who they were....
I hope we get our hands on him, suck every last bit of information out of him and then make him disappear forever.

For the record, not all Americans feel this way.  (Thank Almighty G*d....)
-Dave
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AgentX

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Reply #20 on: August 20, 2012, 03:35:53 am
I don't.

To get semantic, which is the Brits' point, once they've revoked the status there is no longer inviolability of the diplomatic premises.

I don't doubt for a second they'd employ this unilateral method if there were suspects of a recent act of violence taking refuge on the premises, and they wouldn't get much blowback for doing such a thing, from any country that matters anyhow.

Going in after Assange?  Too controversial to be of value to do.


Maturin

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Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 03:45:05 pm
My understanding is that slice (Manning) and Assuange dumped a bunch of message traffic without much filtering.

Even if some things in message traffic seem to be not so important a lot of things can be gleaned .

The Japanese lost at midway due to communications about a water treatment plant.  The Germans in the north Atlantic lost due to not only the hedgehog but the fact that their communications were compromised. 
There is a doctor in Pakistan that has been sent to prison because he helped the U.S. get Bin Laden, his name was released in a similar leak.

So what about the helicopter crew who had real fun playing trap shoot with civilians, trying to pick up wounded people? What about these Einsteins in Abu Graib who ensured the supply of fresh volunteers for the terrorists for months? All that was made public by Assange and Manning, and all consequences that were drawn in these cases were drawn after Wikileak´s releases. If they wouldn´t have leaked it a lot of incompetent soldiers would have granted the chance to screw up again, as the ones in charge and responsibility in the US forces obviously weren´t too keen to take measures. If they would have done their duty and followed their own regulations, Assange would have nothing to leak about. The most interesting thing about all these releases and all the classified paperwork was, after all, that so many failures obviously hadn´t had any consequences.
Concerning the Pakistani doctor: why would Pakistan jail someone helping to get Bin Laden? They´re allied with the US, and part of the war against terror! Just like my country - Germany and Pakistan side-by-side! Oh, dear...Regards
Maturin
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The Garbone

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Reply #22 on: August 20, 2012, 07:14:09 pm
Its a dirty business.  Incompetance abounds and I believe competance is probably the exception not the rule.   Any service is made up of people and they are bound to make mistakes, some criminal.   Criminals should be prosecuted be it for murder or treason or spying.   As a service member the best you can do is follow lawful orders lawfully.

If you have not seen the movie "Grande Torino" with Clint Eastwood I think it gives an excellent look at some of the issues soldiers have faced and probably always will.   It is  all tragic. 
Gary
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redcat

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Reply #23 on: August 20, 2012, 08:52:06 pm
Quote from: The Garbone link=topic=15034.msg161712#msg161712 date=134550804  It is  all tragic.
[/quote


Amen on that
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Lwt Big Cheese

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Reply #24 on: August 21, 2012, 01:14:43 am
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Reply #25 on: August 21, 2012, 08:19:56 pm
"Concerning the Pakistani doctor: why would Pakistan jail someone helping to get Bin Laden? They´re allied with the US, and part of the war against terror! Just like my country - Germany and Pakistan side-by-side! Oh, dear...Regards
Maturin"

Allies are not always fully cooperative or open with each other. Americans are being killed by Afghan police as well as Pakastanis. Sometimes governments are allies but their people aren't.
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Reply #26 on: August 21, 2012, 10:23:39 pm
Most governments become allies only when the other government is doing what they want.

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GlennF

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Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 12:33:38 am
US "allied" countries, territories, protectorates etc ......

Afghanistan
Albania
American Samoa
Andorra
Argentina
Aruba
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahamas
Bahrain
Belgium
Belize
Benin
Bolivia (Eastern Provinces)
Bosnia
Botswana
Bulgaria
Canada
Chad
Chile
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominican Republic
East Timor
Egypt
Estonia
Faroe Islands
Federated States of Micronesia
Fiji
Finland
France
French Guiana
Georgia
Germany
Greece
Greenland
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras (De facto government)
Hungary
Iceland
India
Iraq
Ireland
Isle of Man
Israel
Italy
Jamaica
Japan
Jersey
Jordan
Kiribati
Korea, Republic
Kosovo
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Moldova
Monaco
Montenegro
Morocco
Nauru
Netherland Antilles
Netherlands
New Caledonia
New Zealand
Northern Marianas
Norway
Oman
Palau
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Portuguese Atlantic Islands
Puerto Rico
Reunion
Romania
Samoa
San Marino
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Spain
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden
Switzerland
Thailand
Tonga
Turkey
UAE
Ukraine
United Kingdom
Virgin Islands