[Rob Vespa]

A noise is coming from the primary case area on my 2009 Royal Enfield Electra 500 ES. I've only had my Enfield for a month and am not sure if this is normal.  If something needs to be adjusted, I don't want to damage the bike.  I can't say for sure if the noise is louder now or I'm just more observant.

Videos of other Enfields have similar noises, but not to this degree.  The sound is louder than the engine.  I made a video so you can (hopefully) hear what I'm talking about.  In person, the noise I'm referring to is louder than in the video.

http://youtu.be/1VZFJxHIjBM

What do you think - Is this normal or is something wrong?  I appreciate your help.

Thanks, Rob


History:  I changed the oil in the primary case a few days ago with Valvoline 20W50.  The old oil was thick and dark, like melted chocolate, and there was too much of it. While the primary cover was off, I adjusted the chain. There was over an inch of free play. It was adjusted so that there was approximately 1/4" of slack. Note that I forgot to rotate the chain to check the tension in multiple spots.  I also partially changed the engine oil (no filter), which was almost black.

[Thumper]

easy first:
shut-off is when engine (with no ignition) naturally bumps up against its own compression - which eventually forces the piston to stop. (That's why its always in need of a decompression - after an engine stop, when you go to restart).
 
Second - choke should have no affect on primary/noise. Is there any leak around the intake system (any of the several parts) that also might be making noise?
 
Third - Well, the logical (yes, and painful) place to start is to pull the cover back off and give a good inspection. Since you already have done it and know how, it should not be too bad. Might need a new primary gasket upon replacing the cover. That's noisy enough that whatever it is *might* be obvious. Hope so!
   
A good mechanic should be able to discern what that distinct noise is.
I'll ask a friend to listen to it.
He's no longer an employed RE mechanic (Brit cars now) but he's the best I know!
Matt

[Rob Vespa]

Thanks, Matt.  BTW, I like your website - I was browsing it yesterday and plan to print out the Electra maintenance page.  Nice bikes!

First: I'm using the decompressor to stop the engine now, which has resolved the "reverse" issue when using the kill switch.  It may be my imagination, but the engine seems to start cleaner now, too.

Second: Closing the choke just made a difference because the engine wasn't as loud when it was closed.  I don't know if there's a leak around the intake system.  I ordered Pete Snidal's manual, which just arrived, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet (and didn't know to check for leaks).

Third: Per your suggestion, I removed the primary cover again last night.  While it was off, I readjusted the chain (loosening it) after checking it in multiple spots this time.  The only thing I noticed was that the oil was already darker (I just changed it).

After replacing the cover, I started the bike again and the noise continued.  Aside: This may not be an issue (or at least a related one), but the rear chain engaged even though the bike was in neutral, moving the tire slowly.

There's always a possibility that the sound isn't coming from the primary area, even though that's what it seems like every time I've checked.  Another user suggested that I buy an automotive stethoscope to help find noises, which I plan on getting this week.  I also posted this message on the "RoyalEnfield" Yahoo group and users suggested that the issue could be related to the starter sprag or valves.

That'd be great if your friend has a chance to listen to it.  Maybe he'll be able to discern what it actually is.

While the primary cover was off, I took pictures - They may show something that I'm not seeing.  As soon as I get them off my camera, I'll post them.  Thanks again for your help.

[Arizoni]

It is pretty normal for the drive chain to the rear wheel to move while the bike is in neutral if the rear wheel is off of the ground.
The viscous drag of the oil in the transmission is conveying some of the rotary motion of the input shaft to the output shaft.
This is especially common when the transmission oil is cool or cold.

Although the noise is hard to pin down, if you haven't checked the valve clearance it might be a good idea to do so.
Any 'secondary noise' you can reduce will help you track down where the real sound is coming from.

By removing the plate on the right side of the cylinder you should see the lower end of the valve push rods.
With the piston at the top of its compression stroke, you should be able to rotate but not to shake or move both push rods.
If you can physically shake one or both of them because they are loose, the clearance needs to be adjusted.

[Thumper]

From Earle -
"Was unable to reply to his post but primary noises are usually the dreaded sprague clutch and gears. Hard to say without seeing the unit. "
   
BTW, had mine replaced a couple of years ago - it was just starting to show signs...even though I would always carefully decompress the engine, whether kickstarting *or even electric starting* for the express purpose of saving the sprague clutch for electric starts.....
   
Now I just accept the sprague as an inherent weakness on the Electra X.
Besides, us real men don't need no stinkin' electric start!
   

[Rob Vespa]

Thanks for the information on the rear wheel.  That makes sense.  My other bike (a Suzuki GS650) doesn't have a center stand and I don't recall vintage 2-strokes I've worked on doing that, so I thought I'd mention it.

Per your advice, I plan to look at the valves tonight and adjust them, if necessary.  I've watched several good videos on this and read about adjusting the valves in Pete Snidal's manual (the "Valves Adjustment" chapter).

Aside: If the valves are off, is it possible this may explain why I haven't been able to kickstart the bike (e.g., if "set hot")?  Sadly, I'm not a member of the Electra kickstart club yet.  From what I've read, it's trickier to kickstart AVLs (because of finding TDC, which I may never have done), but it shouldn't be that difficult to do.  Note that the ammeter on my bike doesn't fluctuate while using the kickstart (it stays in the center), so it's possible that something is disconnected or broken.  The only time the needle moves is when the engine is turned on - it goes slightly to the right (+).

Matt - I wish Earle lived nearby.  Tell him thanks for me.  I hope this isn't a sprague issue, but if it is, at least it can be addressed.  It'd be nice to say, "this is the issue" about something - some things being better than other somethings.  If this is a sprague issue, I'll need to find a mechanic or order tool(s) and replacement parts.

Thanks everyone for your help.

[tooseevee]

Aside: If the valves are off, is it possible this may explain why I haven't been able to kickstart the bike (e.g., if "set hot")?  Sadly, I'm not a member of the Electra kickstart club yet.  From what I've read, it's trickier to kickstart AVLs (because of finding TDC, which I may never have done), but it shouldn't be that difficult to do. 
Thanks everyone for your help.

             Valves should be set stone cold which you must know now.

              My '08 AVL is zero trouble to kick over. I kick it once or twice & it's running. I don't use the decompressor at all or worry about where the engine is in its stroke. I kick it through once or twice & it's running. There's nothing tricky about it.

               I use the decompressor to kill the engine; that's all. 

             

[Rob Vespa]

Thanks.  I'm going to look at the valves tonight or this weekend.  If that doesn't help, per recommendation, I may take out the starter.  I'm hoping the issue is something other than main bearings.  The bike is a 2009 and has less than 3000 miles, so from what I've read, the bearings should be fine.

[Rob Vespa]

    I listened to the bike while it was running with the "screwdriver stethoscope" again.  Some of the noise does increase with RPMs.  I took pictures and videos that hopefully capture this and will help identify issues and the noise will be easier to identify.  Of course, what I'd like to hear is that the bike sounds fine.

    Not to cloud the issue, but "small backfires" now occur during and immediately after revving, which you may be able to hear in the video (the sound quality isn't very good in that segment).

    Video - Engine Noise Revisited
    http://youtu.be/bmxRGWLysvk

    I adjusted the valves last night.  Unless I adjusted them wrong, which is entirely possible, it didn't correct the noise issue.  I do have a nice leak now, though.  The leak appears to come from where the AVL decompressor goes through the cover.  Since the gasket looks fine, I'm going to buy gasket maker and apply it to that area.

    Unless someone comes to a different conclusion after hearing the new video, I'm going to revisit the valves.  I've read a number of articles that suggest loose tappets or a valve lifter as sources for noises near the cylinder head.

    Video - Current Valve Settings
    http://youtu.be/qqhuPUElq2M

    Aside:  Is it normal for the exhaust to be loose where it meets the cylinder head when hot?  This is shown in the second video segment.  I figure there is a tolerance, due to metal expanding and contracting, but was curious.

    I'll buy an oil filter this weekend, remove the old one and look through the used oil for contaminants.  Since I'm draining the oil again anyway, I may pick up a detergent and flush the engine.  Note:  I'm using Valvoline 20W50 for the engine and primary.

[Arizoni]

Hopefully your Valvoline oil is the kind that is specifically made for motorcycles?

The automotive kind of oil may have friction modifiers that can cause a motorcycles wet plate clutch to slip.

[Rob Vespa]

It is. When determining which oil to use, it was a toss up between this and Castrol 4T.  Due to alleged issues with the Castrol and per recommendations, I went with the Valvoline motorcycle oil (20W50).

[Philbomoog]

Note that the ammeter on my bike doesn't fluctuate while using the kickstart (it stays in the center), so it's possible that something is disconnected or broken.  The only time the needle moves is when the engine is turned on - it goes slightly to the right (+).

The AVL Electra ammeter doesn't deflect with the kick starter like the older points ignition. To check the ammeters working, switch on all the lights and indicators with the engine not running, you should get a small negative deflection. With the engine running you should notice a small positive deflection when you give it some revs.

[Rob Vespa]

Thanks - That's good to hear.  The ammeter may be working.  Since it doesn't help with the kickstart on AVLs, I guess it's functionality is limited?  My AVL won't kickstart cold.  It's been recommended that there's an issue with the starter (sprague).

[Kevin Mahoney]

The sprag clutch would not be related to lack of kick starting while cold.
The ammeter is useful to tell you if the bike is charging. I cannot tell you about the engine noise because the video was so slow loading on my computer that I couldn't bear it any more. (on my end I think)

[Philbomoog]

I've listened to the video and I must confess that I can't really hear anything wrong.
The exhaust shouldn't be loose; that may be the cause of your 'misfiring'. It certainly won't help matters.
I'd recommend removing the header pipe and refitting it with a new crush washer.