[ridgerunner]

I was riding in to work today at a modest 35mph through the twisty roads leading toward town. Everything seemed to be running well. I start coming down a long, steep hill and instead of the usual feel of compression braking the bike starts slowing and the engine starts to rev. Uh oh...and there's an 18 wheeler closing in on my butt. i pull off on a side road while I still had some momentum, but even on flat blacktop it just revs and barely moves. Guess the clutch is shot. Only 661 miles too. I'll be contacting my dealer (Velocity Motorcycles) about warranty work. Two fluid changes, both producing a seemingly large quantity of metal shavings and now this. At least I found out that with the mirrors off, it fits in the back of my Astro van!

[Thumper]

Bummer!

Maybe the clutch plate screws are just loose.

Let us know what you find out.

Matt

[Kevin Mahoney]

Velocity is a great dealer. My guess is that it will be a small simple issue, it usually is. It will be interesting to find out what it is.

[ridgerunner]

Oh well, it's not the first time I've been on the side of the road. I've never heard any complaints about Enfield trannys, so I'm expecting something simple. The folks at Velocity were ready to hop in their truck and come get it (they're 150 miles away!) but I told them I'd bring it in on Saturday. That'll give me a chance to take a peek myself and maybe save us all some time.
With it on the center stand, you can put it in gear and the wheel is off and running like it should. Put my fat ar$e on it and it don't wanna go nowhere.

[BanditRE]

Sorry to hear that. Let us know what the problem is. Hopefuly its a minor easy fix and you're back on the road soon.

[luoma]

My clutch started to get weak, and it turned out to be loose bolts on the clutch springs. I spent more time trying to over adjust it than it took to fix it once I found the problem.

[ridgerunner]

My clutch started to get weak, and it turned out to be loose bolts on the clutch springs. I spent more time trying to over adjust it than it took to fix it once I found the problem.

Thanks! I'll be sure to check that. I was thinking that even though this is under warranty, it was still going to cost me over $100 in gas to drive it 150 miles to my dealer, drop it off and come 150 miles back home then go get it and come back again. On top of that, RE will be paying my dealer beaucoup $$$ for their labor plus parts. Wouldn't it be really better for all involved to just send me that sweet looking "Blueprinted" clutch hub, some new metal and friction plates and a 3-pack of heavy duty springs and let me fix it? (Wink wink nudge nudge    )

[luoma]

Ridgerunner, I don't even know why these things have a warranty. I found out quick that it is faster, easier, cheaper, and more fun to do it myself. I am only 40 miles from my dealer, and it takes more time and money to have him do something, than to just do it the Enfield way.

I think the guys at the factory purposely leave a few things out of whack on each bike just to start the bonding experience.

[REpozer]

Ridge,  Thanks for the heads up. I,ve been tring to draw a bead on the new AVL.

[ridgerunner]

Ridge,  Thanks for the heads up. I,ve been tring to draw a bead on the new AVL.

 
As far as the AVL goes, and this is without having owned a Classic, I'm pleasantly surprised with this machine. Eventhough I've had a minor setback, I still find the bike a pleasure to ride. It's no rice racer but it pulls just as well as my old Beemer did, and with less vibration (which surprised me). I live in an area of really twisty roads. Even during the break in period this lightweight thumper carves those curves extremely well. One of the best things I've also found is that I would have to say that my experience with my dealer, folks on this forum and at CMW has been top notch.

[REpozer]

Appreciate that, I'm going to check on some shipping prices,and count my pennies, I haven't owned a bike for over 10 yearsand I would like to get bake in. I too have watch H-D change over the years and I've been waiting for the machines to be dumped on the market. I like the simplicity and style and fun RE represents. Hope your back up safe and soon.   pozer

[ridgerunner]

Appreciate that, I'm going to check on some shipping prices,and count my pennies, I haven't owned a bike for over 10 yearsand I would like to get bake in. I too have watch H-D change over the years and I've been waiting for the machines to be dumped on the market. I like the simplicity and style and fun RE represents. Hope your back up safe and soon.   pozer

.

Thanks pozer. Shouldn't be too long. I dropped it off at Velocity this morning. I have complete faith in them to resolve this quickly.

[scoTTy]

did the rubber tubing going to the PAV split?  mine has done that constantly since i got it .  when I can't pull the the tubing nemoRe , fiGGure I will remove the smog system..   and be done with it.. when ever the rubber splits and falls off I have an uncontrollable  higher idle

[ridgerunner]

did the rubber tubing going to the PAV split?  mine has done that constantly since i got it .  when I can't pull the the tubing nemoRe , fiGGure I will remove the smog system..   and be done with it.. when ever the rubber splits and falls off I have an uncontrollable  higher idle

I haven't found anything out of place and the guys at the shop didn't see anything either. I'm sure they'll let me know when they do.

[cochi]

Ridgerunner, sorry to hear about your difficulties. Hopefully it's something simple and you get the bike back quickly. These things really grow on you, especially when you discover how great they are on twisty back roads!  Let us know how thing turn out. cochi

[birdmove]

Yeah, please let us know what they find. We're all learning together. I'm at about 550 miles on my 2007 Classic.Went on about a 45 mile ride on Sunday and had good times.82.0 mpg is a good thing too!!
    Take care, Jon in Puyallup.

[cochi]

Greetings Ridgerunner, I was wandering if you got your bike back and what was the problem. Hope it was something simple. cochi

[ridgerunner]

I spoke with the mechanic at Velocity today. We talked about what had happened and what I found when I drained the fluid to check on things myself. He says he needs to order a special tool and talk to the folks at Enfield to find out how they want to deal with this. Apparently, in all the time they have been an Enfield dealer, this is the first warranty situation they have ever had with Enfield. With gas up to $3.63 a gallon, I hope it all gets done quickly.

[Kevin Mahoney]

Did they say what the issue was?

[ridgerunner]

Did they say what the issue was?

Not really. he said he needed the tool for disassembling the clutch assmbly and he wanted to find out if Enfield wanted to do any sort of investigation (send them the grizzled remains?) or go with the upgrade (blueprinted) clutch.

[scoTTy]

this sounds really strange..    engine reving.. no pulling power new bike.. I have 720 miles on mine..  ,,  everything is so mechanical , I just don't understand.. .. waiting to see..  I can't see why the clutch should be pulled..

I have no dealer.. so I would have pulled the cover and checked everything..   but hey.. as has been said keep us informed

[ridgerunner]

this sounds really strange..    engine reving.. no pulling power new bike.. I have 720 miles on mine..  ,,  everything is so mechanical , I just don't understand.. .. waiting to see..  I can't see why the clutch should be pulled..

I have no dealer.. so I would have pulled the cover and checked everything..   but hey.. as has been said keep us informed

I did pull the cover to check things. The three bolts holding the springs were tight, no obvious failures elsewhere...chain had proper slack etc.. The fluid was dark and gritty with silver and copper/brass looking shavings in the mix. That worried me the most being that I put fresh fluid in there 61 miles previous.

[REpozer]

Hey ridgerunner, you still thuming to work ?

[ridgerunner]

Hey ridgerunner, you still thuming to work ?

Well, the Enfield is still at the shop but luckily I've got my wife's 450 Honda to commute with. We picked it up for $700 needing a little work. It aint pretty but it does average about 55-60 mpg. A whole lot better than the 18mpg van for the work commute 25 miles each way!

[GreenMachine]

let us know what they find out re. the enfield..checking your thread and the suspense is killing me..cheers

[ridgerunner]

Finally, the moment you all have been waiting for...

I just got off the phone with my dealer. They have completely disassembled the clutch and found the friction plates worn out, the steel plates warped like potato chips, but no excessive run out in the basket itself. They found no direct or obvious cause but were concerned about the type of oil I used based on the excessive slip required to wear out the clutch and heat it enough to warp the steel plates. So I'm afraid I am about to touch off another round of oil discussions...
   My dealer has recommended a fluid made specifically for this type of engine and a seperate oil specifically made for this type of Primary. I talked to him about the postings on this forum regarding the use of automatic transmission fluid in the primary. He said that would work fine and certainly provide a better grip than the semi-synthetic fluid I was using. He feels that synthetic and semi-synthetic multi purpose oils allow too much slip in the clutch. The oils ability to keep debris in suspension can be disasterous in a chaincase due to no filtration. His concern with the oil was that older engine designs worked best with oils that allowed the wear particles to fall to the bottom of the sump to be drained. Modern oils use additives that keep the wear particles in suspension and the limited filtation of the older designs including the Enfield have great difficulty filtering it all out while maintaining proper lubrication. He recommends the single weight low detergent vintage style oils such as provided by the Brittish company Morris Oils (  http://www.morrisoils.com/ ). They carry the vintage style oils (there is a great description on their website) and the EP gear oils he recommends for the Enfield particularly the older classics with the gauze filters.  So, they are rebuilding the clutch and we'll see what happens next. 

[ridgerunner]

Sorry guys...I attached the wrong link. Try http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/

I spoke with my dealer again about the oil in the primary. The manual recommends 15w40 just like the engine which is not available as a motorcycle oil only a diesel oil so he is contacting the US supplier of Morris Oils who also happens to be a vintage Brit bike collector and get his take on the recommended oil. After reading the write up on the Morris vintage oil line, I may be switching over to that. I know I'm not supposed to sell on here but I recommend our administrators look into this as well (I was using the Top 1 Semi-Synthetic from CMW). I'll let you know when I here from them.

[BanditRE]

Bummer. Will he still fix it for you under warranty, or he is saying it's your fault?

At least you know what to do when you change the fluid next. I've always used regular oils in the primary of my ES Bullet, like a 10w30 or 10w40 or whatever I have lying around the garage. I don't think we want to start another oil discussion/war again though do we! I was interested in what your dealer had to say about the different oil types and how they suspend the solids. Its easier for me to read it and be interested as its not my bike in the shop  

I'm glad your problem has been diagnosed and hopefully you'll be riding again soon.

Paul

[ridgerunner]

Bummer. Will he still fix it for you under warranty, or he is saying it's your fault?

At least you know what to do when you change the fluid next. I've always used regular oils in the primary of my ES Bullet, like a 10w30 or 10w40 or whatever I have lying around the garage. I don't think we want to start another oil discussion/war again though do we! I was interested in what your dealer had to say about the different oil types and how they suspend the solids. Its easier for me to read it and be interested as its not my bike in the shop  

I'm glad your problem has been diagnosed and hopefully you'll be riding again soon.

Paul

Thanks Paul. The repair is still covered under warranty and they have been really super about the whole thing. Great dealer to work with (www.velocityvintage.com )

[prof_stack]

Interesting prognosis.

I want to hear what Vince says about it.

[GreenMachine]

maybe the best bet is to use type f transmission fluid...believe snidal states that but the manual also mentioned something about 20w50 oil (as u were to believe) that is use in the rest of the engine,etc.......now u got me wondering but believe type f auto is probably a good measure if in doubt for the clutch/primary)...am i right on this?

[birdmove]

     Harley-Davidson also has an oil called Formula+ thats used in transmissions and primarys. They either use that or "Syn3" synthetic.HDs also use 20W-50 motor oil in the engines (or the above Syn3).

    Jon

[Vince]

     I would hate to disappoint the professor. I have been selling Enfields since 1999. To date I have replaced two clutches. One was a guy whose "expert" buddy (mis)adjusted it for him. The other was on a higher mileage side car rig- a very high load use.. Almost all of my customers are running the same 20W50 in the primary that they are running in the engine. I am a great believer in the Torco brand that I carry,even to the extent of using it in my truck and van. However, oil snob that I am, I concede that other oils may be OK. The thing is to use a good quality MOTORCYCLE lubricant. This will have the additive package to address the specific needs of a motorcycle. You can use anything Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki or Honda on the bottle. Spectro, Bel Ray, PJ-1 and others make a good product. Just change it every 1000 miles. FYI: The oils at the local car parts store may be "safe" for motorcycles, but that does not mean they are motorcycle specific. I recommend going to a motorcycle store for motorcycle oils.  The bike was designed in an era of relatively low quality oils, so darn near anything will work OK. Today you can do better than OK, but don"t get hung
up on the ONE and only oil. Just get a good oil and change it often.
     
     

[ridgerunner]

     I would hate to disappoint the professor. I have been selling Enfields since 1999. To date I have replaced two clutches. One was a guy whose "expert" buddy (mis)adjusted it for him. The other was on a higher mileage side car rig- a very high load use.. Almost all of my customers are running the same 20W50 in the primary that they are running in the engine. I am a great believer in the Torco brand that I carry,even to the extent of using it in my truck and van. However, oil snob that I am, I concede that other oils may be OK. The thing is to use a good quality MOTORCYCLE lubricant. This will have the additive package to address the specific needs of a motorcycle. You can use anything Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki or Honda on the bottle. Spectro, Bel Ray, PJ-1 and others make a good product. Just change it every 1000 miles. FYI: The oils at the local car parts store may be "safe" for motorcycles, but that does not mean they are motorcycle specific. I recommend going to a motorcycle store for motorcycle oils.  The bike was designed in an era of relatively low quality oils, so darn near anything will work OK. Today you can do better than OK, but don"t get hung
up on the ONE and only oil. Just get a good oil and change it often.
     
     

I have nothing but good things from your customers and I agree that motorcycle oils should be used, that's why I commented about those wanting to use Rotella T 15W40...a diesel engine oil. I was using the Top 1 Semi Synthetic offered by CMW. I still don't quite understand why a better grade of engine oil would cause problems. I have used HD Syn 3 for years with no problems. The thought of using ATF seemed weird but is apparently common among posters on here. I worry that I'll get the bike back and have the same problem again regardless of what oil I use.

[ridgerunner]

     I would hate to disappoint the professor.
     
     

 

[Kevin Mahoney]

I tend to agree with Vince on this. Over the years Royal Enfield has recommended 20w50, 50, 20, 15w40 and I am sure other oil viscosities for the primary. A lot of customers use ATF both type F which is supposed to be good for plates (i have notidea, but that is what they say) as well as Dextron etc. There are a ton of oils out there that use fear as a marketing tool - as in, "if you don't use our oil your mechanical device will go to hell in a handbasket.". For a while Lucas additive were the snake oil additives that the internet crowd swore there have been others. ( I am not knocking Lucas) All show impressive "research" that buttresses their claim. In my day you could buy very inexpensive "re-refined oil" which was what the name implies. I would not be afraid to use any of these oils because even the worst oil today is better than what was available back in the day. Having said that, I think the best thing to do is to use a motorcycle specific oil  from a good company as suggested by Vince. If you want to start a bar fight try to tell someone that the brand they swear by is junk. I don't think it really matters much as long as you change it frequently. I do not want to disagree with a dealer, but I would be very surprised if the oil caused a primary problem. I have been wrong once before though. I think I have said it elsewhere on the forum, but for a long time the factory recommended 20w50. They changed it to 15w40 because a dealer in northern India thought it might be better for a cold start-up situation. There was ABSOLUTELY no science involved in the change of recommendation. I use 20w50 and that is  what we tell others. As you have discovered 15w40 is hard to find in the US. As far as the primary is concerned anything south of heating oil is probably OK although we tell people to use 20w50, 10w40, 20wt, ATF etc. (don't use heating oil I am only kidding). In more modern engines the manufacturers recommendations become far more important than in these old designs. I will say DO NOT use straight 50wt. It was used in the old days because of fear of  mulit-grade oils, to stop or slow down oil leaks and to help compensate for bad rings. It did none of these things very well however. Regardless of what your buddy tells you it is not a good choice.

[Jerry]

I have a 2008 AVL Classic and I'm going to do my 300 mile maintenance tomorrow.  I spent today searching for 15W-40 and EP 90 GL-4 gear oil.  I couldn't find either.  The only SG rated oil I could get was Mobil 1 motorcycle oil.  One quart of 20W-50 and 2 10W-40. I thought a blend would be OK in the engine and I'll put the 10-40 in the clutch.  The only gear oil around was all GL-5 in 80W-90.  I'm hoping the GL-5 is just a newer and better formulation and will be adequate for the bullet. 

[prof_stack]

     I would hate to disappoint the professor.

 

Vince was referring to my moniker "PROF Stack".  He's still gently working on me to finally ante up and get an RE.  It'll come.

Good luck with your clutch.  I think that Vince's (and RE1's) advice is solid.

[ridgerunner]

     I would hate to disappoint the professor.

 

Vince was referring to my moniker "PROF Stack".  He's still gently working on me to finally ante up and get an RE.  It'll come.

Good luck with your clutch.  I think that Vince's (and RE1's) advice is solid.

I'm sure it is. As I stated earlier I think we've run into a "ït's got to be this funny looking purple oil" by process of elimination or just plain don't know why the thing crapped out at 661 miles. I also agree with you re-refined oil statement as I once worked with 150,000 horse steam turbines and we ran the same oil forever...just run through a centrifugal purifier. I do wonder if the tiny oil filter can handle the suspended particles or if the old let it drop out oils would be better. The factory spec is AP SG and JASO MA, which is what I used. So again I fear I'll find myself on the side of the road again in the not too distant future wondering wtf is really the problem.

[BanditRE]

I don't think Snidals manual or others recommend ATF for the primary of bikes with electric start. I believe the reasoning has to do with the starter clutch lubrication. "Regular" oil is usually recommended (i.e. not synthetic or ATF).

Ridgerunner, I'm glad your dealer is taking care of you, it seems there are alot of good dealers for Enfields. How refreshing. Good luck.

[Kevin Mahoney]

There is the possibility that the clutch was adjusted too tight from the get-go, although as the cable stretches they usually go in the other direction. I would throw some 20W50 in it or whatever your dealer comes up with and that will eliminate that fear from your mind.

to: Jerry
the gear oil is fine, don't worry about it at all. I am not so sure however that mixing oil viscosities is a great idea. I am not sure about this, but it seems that I have read this before. I suppose it is better than mixing brands.

[scoTTy]

I have the rotela oil in mine.. do I need to change it to 20 - 50  it's been in a couple hundred miles?

[cyrusb]

I believe a wearing a clutch tends to tighten the adjustment, leading to slippage. Cable freeplay is really independent of the actual clutch adjustment. At no time should the clutch adjustment be "hanging on the cable".  Lots of freeplay in the cable lessens the available stroke hampering disengagement. As the clutchpack wears it head towards the adjusting screw.

[Kevin Mahoney]

This is my opinion only. I would be queasy about using diesel oil in a gasoline engine. I am not basing this opinion on any scientific facts, just a general uneasiness. I know of people who do it regularly so it may mean nothing. The big difference between the two is the additive package which I don't think means a thing in the primary. I would be inclined to leave it.

[ridgerunner]

I have the rotela oil in mine.. do I need to change it to 20 - 50  it's been in a couple hundred miles?

i'm not going to tell you what to do, just tell you what I know. Rotella and other diesel specific oils are designed for several things. Some would seem to be appropriate for the Enfield. Diesel oils have an additive package that includes chemicals that break down and carry away soot deposits. They also have antibacterial additives since bacteria will flourish in diesel fuel. None of these apply to the Enfield and I have no idea how they would react in the primary. What does apply is diesel oils are very resistant to thermal breakdown because diesel engines run hot and under very high pressure (a gas engine compression might be in the 160psi range while a diesel would be closer to 450psi). that may be good for an air cooled engine. My humble opinion however is that for what Rotella costs, there are motorcycle specific oils available made specifically to the specs given by the manufacturer and I would consider those. But as Vince and RE1 have stated elsewhere, these bikes were designed in an age where all the various grades of super pure oils were not available so just about anything should work if changed often enough.

[cyrusb]

So I'm taking it that you guys really think the oil was the problem?

[PhilJ]

Well at least the cast iron engine was. The AVL, wihile housed in a look-a-like housing is pretty modern.

Just another slant.

Phil

[ridgerunner]

So I'm taking it that you guys really think the oil was the problem?

frankly...no. It may have been a contributing factor, but I doubt it alone was the root cause. As I had stated in other posts, I was finding a lot of wear materials in each fluid change. Not having run-in an Enfield before I wasn't sure how much to expect. My fault for not investigating sooner. I am actually more concerned about all the metal in the engine oil ( same oil I used in the primary ). So it looks to me to be several factors working toward the same end, but the signs of heat damage indicate the oil didn't transfer heat sufficiently enough for the abnormal conditions. So, blame the oil or blame the clutch or blame the setup or the way I ride or all of it. Take your choice.

[cyrusb]

I doubt it was the oil,in fact i think it could have gone 660 miles without any oil. And I'm certain it was not your riding, especially now, tiptoeing around at the break in speeds. That leaves the clutch itself,  have you seen it yet?

[scoTTy]

well.. I also have that oil in the engine..  no side effects at present, but now I don't know..  If it ever stops raining I would like to ride

[ridgerunner]

I doubt it was the oil,in fact i think it could have gone 660 miles without any oil. And I'm certain it was not your riding, especially now, tiptoeing around at the break in speeds. That leaves the clutch itself,  have you seen it yet?

No I have not seen it but the mechanic, Scott, said the friction discs were worn below spec and the metal plates were discolored and warped like pringles potato chips.

[cyrusb]

Well , at least its getting fixed, and thats all that matters now. You know its funny ,but it seems that if you can get past the 1000 mile mark your pretty much home free. Thats the way it went for me anyway.

[ridgerunner]

I have a 2008 AVL Classic and I'm going to do my 300 mile maintenance tomorrow.  I spent today searching for 15W-40 and EP 90 GL-4 gear oil.  I couldn't find either.  The only SG rated oil I could get was Mobil 1 motorcycle oil.  One quart of 20W-50 and 2 10W-40. I thought a blend would be OK in the engine and I'll put the 10-40 in the clutch.  The only gear oil around was all GL-5 in 80W-90.  I'm hoping the GL-5 is just a newer and better formulation and will be adequate for the bullet. 

I'm using the Mobil 1 80W90 GL-5, but now I find this information online which just makes me question my decisions. I need to stop reading this stuff!

"Most gearboxes in pre-1970 machines have simple gear designs not requiring high amounts of extreme pressure (EP) additives usually required for the protection of some of the latest transmission systems. If too much EP additive (i.e. API GL5 performance level) is present in a lubricant used in a syncromesh gearbox requiring an API GL4 performance level additive, it will eventually lead to notchy gear selection and increased noise."

[scoTTy]

Sometimes a little knowledge is too much information

[ridgerunner]

Sometimes a little knowledge is too much information

You sure are right. I've been doing it my way for umteen years and now they say I'm doing it all wrong. Normally it wouldn't bother me but after putting a new bike on the side of the road without finding a clear cause, I'm second guessing everything...even buying the RE. There's just been too much time and questions without having the bike where I can look at it myself.

[REpozer]

Alot of folks are pulling for you.I was hoping to hear good things about the lean burn classic. Sounds like this is turning out to be on the high profile side of things. Hope they are able to find a smoken gun.

[Kevin Mahoney]

Ridgerunner,
I am afraid that you are getting what most medical school students get. That is they think they have every disease they learn about.

You are overthinking this whole thing. This is a very simple bike with very simple needs. Your bike will have new clutch plates so it will be fine. I would be absolutely shocked to see any linkage between the oil you used and your problem. I have sold thousands of these and this has never cropped up  before.

Put 20w50 in the engine, put 20w50, 15w40, 10w40, 20wt, 30wt or ATF in the primary. Put whatever weight gear oil in the transmission that you can get easily. Straight 90wt is getting hard to find, Any multi weight from 75 - 140 (multi weight) ie: 75-140, 75-120, 80-90 etc in the gearbox. There is no need to split hairs here. I get obsessive about things like this and recognize the symptoms. Take a deep breath and believe me when I tell you that in the overall scheme of things with your Enfield if you stay within these guidelines you cannot and will not go wrong.

In racing there is a story that goes something like this: If the guy that is winning has a turd on his front fender within three weeks everyone will have a turn on their fender. Everyone has a favorite oil or an oil story that they heard from their second cousins, brother-in- law who had a neighbor that knew a mechanic who swore that (fill in the blank). Just plug your ears, follow my advice and all will be well, I promise!! After all that is what a warranty is for.

[BanditRE]

Amen, Kevin 

[ridgerunner]

You're right! It's Friday...one last 16 hour shift, some much needed rest and everything will make sense again.

[Thumper]

An incident like this can definitely dampen enthusiasm.

On the plus side, you'll soon be riding again, and you have Number One's assurance that all will go well! 

Another positive thing to help lift your mood: As you read through this section of the forum, you see only a small minority of AVL engine or transmission problems.

That speaks well of the design - especially because the nature of forums like this one usually results in an inordinately large number of problem posts.

Now I'm getting the itch to go wring out my own RE - too bad I'm stuck at work for 4 more hours!

Matt

[PaulF]

Another positive thing to help lift your mood: As you read through this section of the forum, you see only a small minority of AVL engine or transmission problems.

That speaks well of the design - especially because the nature of forums like this one usually results in an inordinately large number of problem posts.

And because they're Austrian-built (?)


http://www.avl.com/wo/webobsession.servlet.go/encoded/YXBwPWJjbXMmcGFnZT12aWV3JiZub2RlaWQ9NDAwMDMxMDY3.html

[cyrusb]

If they are, its probably only from the cylinder spigot up. Maybe CMW can answer this? It's a good question.

[Jerry]

Kevin,
Thanks for the reassurance regarding the gear oil.  I'll be better prepared the next
time I change fluids.  Also it is nice to have an definitive answer (20w-50) on the engine oil.  A large part of my decision to get RE vs. Ural was the support you and the rest of the pro's give on this forum. 

Jerry

[Kevin Mahoney]

AVL does not build ANY of the Royal Enfield AVL engine. The factory prefers to call it the "Lean-Burn" and I suppose we should settle on a common name. AVL designed the engine initially almost 10 years ago in it's 350 form. The engine was not without it's teething problems, most notably it was nosey. Since then Royal Enfield engineers as well as consultants from all over the world have refined it. The entire engine is made in India (I am not 100% sure about the piston, and some of the gaskets come from the US).

[LJRead]

It would be nice if someone in the know could do a time line of exactly what changes were made (all the way from 1955) and when they were made.  For example, with the AVL, what changes were made, and when, in the way of refinements.  We read general statement that R E has been improved by India "over the years" - but it would be nice to pin it down more - useful as well.

Mine is a transitional AVL in that it combines the new type engine with the old type gear box.  I would very much like to know if there were refinements to the engine part concomitant with the change in transmission.  I know, for example, that the crankcase vent was moved from the input valve cover to the flat behind the cylinder, but don't know why.  I heard there was a problem with early push rods, but have never been able to confirm that or find out when the push rods were improved.

I personally have nothing against Indian manufacture.  I have an electric motor by them and it is every bit as good as one from elsewhere.  I think that do to our mental concept of India as being backward and improvising, we tend to look down on their ways, but perhaps this in unjustified.  There are some highly skilled people there - possibly as good as anywhere else.

[ridgerunner]

I personally have nothing against Indian manufacture.  I have an electric motor by them and it is every bit as good as one from elsewhere.  I think that do to our mental concept of India as being backward and improvising, we tend to look down on their ways, but perhaps this in unjustified.  There are some highly skilled people there - possibly as good as anywhere else.

This may make a few mad, but the Indian manufacture was part of the reason for buying the Enfield. My only experience with Brit bikes was towing them to the shop. They'd make fun of my Harley for leaking oil but sooner or later I'd be towing them home (usually from electrical problems). India has been doing most of the work on our satellites and other high tech projects for years. I have no problem with that...just my @#*! clutch.

[birdmove]

    I had a mid-sixties BSA 500 twin when I was in high school. That was the first of two motorcycles that I was able to blow up. On that bike, the brazed on fitting at the oil tank for the return line broke from vibration spewing oil all over and taking out the bottom end. The second blow up was on a 2001 Kawasaki KLR250 that was repaired under warranty.On that bike a little piece of silicone gasket sealer used on assembly broke off and plugged the oil supply line to the top end and took out both overhead cams,all the rockers,cam chain and tensioner, and the cylinder head itself.That happened at exactly 1387 miles. thats  two out of about 22 motorcycles over 45 years.

    jon

[cyrusb]

My only beef is that they should have left the castings unpolished and spent that time on other things(insert wish here ). Anyone who has ever polished a set of castings knows the amount of time that it consumes.

[michigandon]

I personally have nothing against Indian manufacture.  I have an electric motor by them and it is every bit as good as one from elsewhere.  I think that do to our mental concept of India as being backward and improvising, we tend to look down on their ways, but perhaps this in unjustified.  There are some highly skilled people there - possibly as good as anywhere else.

This may make a few mad, but the Indian manufacture was part of the reason for buying the Enfield. My only experience with Brit bikes was towing them to the shop. They'd make fun of my Harley for leaking oil but sooner or later I'd be towing them home (usually from electrical problems). India has been doing most of the work on our satellites and other high tech projects for years. I have no problem with that...just my @#*! clutch.

Mahindra is supposedly going to begin selling trucks in the USA as of next year. I've been monitoring this development for a while now, simply because I have been wanting a small 4-cylinder turbodiesel pickup like you buy everywhere else in the world EXCEPT here in the so-called "land of the free".

And yet, Google up any article about these trucks, and the comments below will be loaded with tons of very negative comments...99.99% of which are coming from folks who've never even SEEN one in person, much less driven, sat in, or even touched one! 

Only Indian-Manufactured product that I'm less-than-impressed with at the moment are their Dunlop inner tubes (more about that later).

Don

[Kevin Mahoney]

I notice a ton of diesels in Europe and India in cars, yet few here. Is it an issue of emissions that keeps them out of the US in large numbers or are there other reasons?

[Thumper]

It would be nice if someone in the know could do a time line of exactly what changes were made (all the way from 1955) and when they were made. 

This high level covers 1851 to 2000 but not to the level of detail you're looking for...

http://www.royalenfield.com/app/US/Aboutus/history.asp

Matt

[LJRead]

I notice a ton of diesels in Europe and India in cars, yet few here. Is it an issue of emissions that keeps them out of the US in large numbers or are there other reasons?

Some of this has to do with tradition; the early ones were noisier and balky in response.  Maybe they've refined them and most now are turbos which improves responsiveness.  And the U.S. has, until now, maybe, been less concerned about fuel savings, always having cheap gas.

Bike diesels are no doubt fuel efficient but seem to be at a low state of development still.  They are slow, noisy, emit a lot of black discharge - probably fuel efficiency is their only real advantage.

[ridgerunner]

I notice a ton of diesels in Europe and India in cars, yet few here. Is it an issue of emissions that keeps them out of the US in large numbers or are there other reasons?

Some of this has to do with tradition; the early ones were noisier and balky in response.  Maybe they've refined them and most now are turbos which improves responsiveness.  And the U.S. has, until now, maybe, been less concerned about fuel savings, always having cheap gas.

Bike diesels are no doubt fuel efficient but seem to be at a low state of development still.  They are slow, noisy, emit a lot of black discharge - probably fuel efficiency is their only real advantage.

those of us in the States that do drive diesels love them. They are most common in rural areas where there are a lot of diesels trucks and tractors in use. It's often hard to find fuel stations in cities that sell diesel so that tends to cut back on sales. Currently the VW diesels are rather popular particularly for the 50mpg. With diesel costing more than gasoline most people here are reluctant to fork over the several thousand dollars extra for a diesel car hoping diesel fuel prices won't continue to out pace gasoline and eat up any advantage. A number of years ago Toyota introduced a car that ran on natural gas but it flopped here too. People overseas thought it was because we don't care about the environment, but it was really just impractical at the time. There were so few fueling stations that you were limited on where you could travel. Both diesel technology and other alternative fuels are good ideas and should be pursued. We just can't expect something to come along and immediately replace fossil fuels and solve the problems of the world. One step at a time. It took us over a hundred years to dig this hole, it'll take a while to fill it.

[scoTTy]

i bought a diesel tractor to save money   decided to only keep my Mom's fields trim as she is a few more feet closer to civilization than I.. my fields aren't cut at all just looked out my window and saw 2 fawns bedding down for the night .. life is good... I also have a bat in my shed.. the mosquito population is down too and I have a pond 50 ft away from my dome..  I do sweep out the bat guano every once and a while

[jonapplegate]

Bulletheads. Has anyone thought that maybe their is a blockage in the oil delivery or that one of the pumps was defective? That could explain things sice oil seems to be the least of the worries and they're alot of metal in the case. Just thinking...
    I appreciate if you tell me how I am wrong.

[REpozer]

Hows the new clutch doing?

[ridgerunner]

Hows the new clutch doing?

I talked to the shop yesterday. Apparently the parts have not arrived yet so i continue to ride my wifes bike to work trying to survive the fuel costs.

[cyrusb]

Bulletheads. Has anyone thought that maybe their is a blockage in the oil delivery or that one of the pumps was defective? That could explain things since oil seems to be the least of the worries and they're alot of metal in the case. Just thinking...
    I appreciate if you tell me how I am wrong.

This problem is in the clutch housing....

[REpozer]

Hows the new clutch doing?

I talked to the shop yesterday. Apparently the parts have not arrived yet so i continue to ride my wifes bike to work trying to survive the fuel costs.
[Are the parts  coming from Madras?/quote]

[ridgerunner]

I think the parts are coming from Madras...taking the slow boat by way of Xanadu

[REpozer]

Roger that, Ridgerunner, I've been a little concerned about the warranty work as I ve been watching from a distance.  I'm currently working on getting a classic AVL and live in the sticks, so I'll be doing my own work.

[ridgerunner]

Roger that, Ridgerunner, I've been a little concerned about the warranty work as I ve been watching from a distance.  I'm currently working on getting a classic AVL and live in the sticks, so I'll be doing my own work.

I probably would have been better off just redoing the clutch myself. It'll cost me over $100 in gas to bring it up to the dealer then go get it and bring it home. That and CMW is pretty fast with their delivery of parts. I think I could have been back on the road already saving gas money and being a lot more at ease having the bike where I can check it out myself. Nothing bad about Velocity, just think I'm a little too possessive for all this dealer warranty work stuff.

[REpozer]

Ridgerunner, any news?

[LJRead]

Probably shouldn't say anything, it not being my business, but I've kept an eye on what is happening with your clutch and it seems that you are being badly put out by the situation.  First there's the time - why so long? Then the money you are out.  If CMW wants to operate with too few dealers too widely spread out, they should make some compensation for what you are out.  Maybe you are too polite, but maybe have no choice.

My two cents.

LJ

[ridgerunner]

Still nothing. Seriously considering talking to the dealer about a swap for the 75 R90/6 sitting in their shop. Meanwhile, my wife's 26 year old Honda 450 has been my main transportation. Just cleaned the carbs, new plugs, fresh oil and viola. I couldn't help but notice it uses the same plugs and even the 115 jets in the carbs.

[REpozer]

I know right now allot of motorcycle shops are having trouble keeping up with demand .Good weather and  gas prices. I wouldn't be surprised if your bike is collecting dust in there shop while they deal with more demanding and profitable customers. I used to work at a new car dealership, warranty work paid less than regular servicing,so sometimes there was less motivation to do the work.

[jonapplegate]

If parts are actually coming from India then they are not going to just ship over one part order. It is not cost effective for them although it certainly does irritate customers. I am betting that they would wait 'til they had a decent sized order put together and then send it over all at once. I know this doesn't make things get done quicker but sometimes helps to know why.

[PaulF]

That could take forever.

Seems it would be just as beneficial to go to someplace like cycletrader.com and buy a slightly used RE and use it just as your parts bike.

[Bankerdanny]

I notice a ton of diesels in Europe and India in cars, yet few here. Is it an issue of emissions that keeps them out of the US in large numbers or are there other reasons?

GM kind of killed the diesel in the US with their poor quality products. Plus, they were loud, slow, and dirty. In Europe gas prices were (and are) much higher than in the US, primarily due to taxes, and diesel fuel is taxed at a lower level so it is cheaper. Lastly, modern European direct injection diesels require low sulfur fuel, which only recently became available in the US.

Combine the lower fuel costs with better economy and you have a very popular engine type.

I think that we will see a diesel renaissance here in the US. With low sulfur fuel required by the EPA, sky rocketing gas prices and the VAST improvement in diesel performance and refinement the past few years (the diesel 3 series BMW is as fast as a 330i but gets almost double the mpg) diesels make a great deal of sense.

Inside Line (Edmund's on-line car mag, www.insideline.com) has a 2005 VW Jetta TDI they bought this year for their long-term test fleet. It recently won a "fuel sippers" comparison test that included a 2007 Prius and a 2008 Smart despite the fact that diesel cost almost $1/gallon more than gasoline.

[cyrusb]

CMW has clutch parts in their catalogue, What could possibly be the holdup? Oh, hang on, I am still waiting  6 months for a fender.  Who knew a bad business model could keep you from riding? That is really all we're talking about here.

[ridgerunner]

CMW has clutch parts in their catalogue, What could possibly be the holdup? Oh, hang on, I am still waiting  6 months for a fender.  Who knew a bad business model could keep you from riding? That is really all we're talking about here.

I don't know if CMW or Velocity or the Indian supplier is the holdup, but I'm truly dissapointed that after so few miles I find myself bikeless for a month or more. I knew I was taking a risk spending hard earned money on an "off brand" but this is not the way to build owner confidence in a product. I have purposely stayed quiet in the postings of potential buyers as not to spread sour grapes, but I must say that I'm finding it more and more difficult justifying to my wife the outlay of funds for this bike while I ride her $600 26 year old Honda with no real issues. I personally like to wrench on my own bikes so the added preventative maintenance and upkeep is not the issue. The looong delays for parts and service, uncertain cause (oil?), and the lack of communication or reassurance is what really gets me.

[t120rbullet]

I think that here in the US motorcycles are viewed as toys not as everyday transportation and no sense of urgency is put on repairing them in a timely cost-effective manner.
My Electra Glide spent 9 weeks in the dealer it's first summer waiting on parts (a speedo) to come in for warranty work on it.
Memorial weekend I took it out for a ride to the other side of the state for lunch with a friend of mine. Got home, parked the bike in the garage, hit the garage door opener and heard all this crashing. I turned around just in time to see everything in my garage moving and falling over. What had happened was the antenna on the HD got hooked in the bracket between the track on the garage door opener and the door itself. It flipped the HD over onto the Bullet, the Bullet fell over on my Trump, the Trump fell over on the MIG welder. The front of the HD hit my cargo trailer pushing it into the wall and since the lid was open it slammed down knocking my helmet off the front of the trailer onto the other side of the HD tank.
Now I get a fax from the HD dealer yesterday with the quote to fix it ($3,959.41) and a time frame of 8 weeks minimum to get the parts in to fix it!
I know this dealer and the 8 weeks minimum will be 16 weeks just to get the parts in and then they have to fix it so I'll bet that we'll be talking 4 or 5 months from start to finish.
If this was your car you'd be pissed if it was more than a day.

Now on the flip side my Toyota pickup had a recall for a defective tie-rod end. I took the truck in and they told me that mine was OK but they would replace them anyway.
When they unscrewed the tie rod end the threads of the tie rod came out with it.
They called the parts distribution center and were told that the tie rod was on nationwide backorder. They found one on the other side of the Country and had it overnighted out to them. The next day when it didn't arrive they called and were told that they shipped it UPS ground and it would take another 3 days or so. I told them that I was going deer hunting in 2 days and would need my truck so they took one off a brand new truck on the lot and I was on my way a happy man.
So goes life,
CJ

 

[REpozer]

Ridgerunner, I appreciate your restraint. I have been following along since the start , and I've been waiting for a happy ending. If you will allow me to speak freely, its probably time to get Kev at CMW involved . I have an classic AVL on order and I hope I don't get the same treatment . I know it would cause some friction with my wife especially since she is a bookkeeper .  Hope it all works out good--soon

[LJRead]

It is a difficult thing, isn't it?  You want to light a fire under them but are afraid of getting burned yourself.  I just now canceled two accounts with my local bank because of shoddy service.  All of them give the same shoddy service, so I'm going to run out of banks as there are only three here.

What surprises me is that Jim and Kevin see these posts but seem to choose to sit on their hands and not get their dealer(s) to perform to an adequate standard.  They build up good will through this forum, then lose it because they can't keep up with parts demands, or something.  I would have thought that they would have placed more emphasis on keeping a clean reputation.

You bought a new bike which, by Kevin's admission (I believe) wasn't assembled right.
 
They should just replace it.

More two cents!

LJ

[birdmove]

    I'm in a better position as I have three motorcycles.If my Bullet has a problem, or theres a parts delay, I can ride either my KLR650 or XT225. Myself, I probably wouldn't have bought a Bullet as my only motorcycle because we are now down to one car and my wife works too.I am commited to riding a motorcycle to work, rain or shine, here in western  Wa. State.

    Sorry to hear of your problems getting parts though.

    jon

[ridgerunner]

    I'm in a better position as I have three motorcycles.If my Bullet has a problem, or theres a parts delay, I can ride either my KLR650 or XT225. Myself, I probably wouldn't have bought a Bullet as my only motorcycle because we are now down to one car and my wife works too.I am commited to riding a motorcycle to work, rain or shine, here in western  Wa. State.

    Sorry to hear of your problems getting parts though.

    jon

It's not like I'm stranded. We have the Volvo wagon and the Astro van plus my wife's Honda CM450E. It's a lot more cost effective to do my 50 mile round-trip commute every day with the Bullet than it is with the van. I chose the Bullet based on the fuel economy and the reputation of being a simple and reliable bike. The routine maintenance is not a problem, in fact I really enjoy wrenching. I probably should have considered the original or last year Bullet as the "tried and true" ride, but the AVL sounded like it was a step up. Oh well. I'll get the bike back with the new clutch and hopefully all will be well for many miles to come. This is small potatoes compared to t120's Benny Hill / Mr Bean-ish catastrophie. Man! I'm sorry to hear about all that.

[LJRead]

Yeah, best to think positive.  You will get it soon and will have learned something in the process.  I waited about seven months for mine to show up and it was of salvage quality when it got here - sure enjoying the new one though - a study in contrasts.

Good luck,

LJ

[ridgerunner]

I'll be on vacation in wonderful West Virginia next week. Maybe I should swing by St Albans and check out the Final Edition. I bought the AVL March 24th, broke down May 1st and haven't seen my bike since. Maybe I should have gone with the Cast Iron Classic...how about a swap?

[ridgerunner]

Yeeha! I come back from a week in the woods and viola! There are 4 messages telling me my bike is ready! A big thanks to Kevin for his help with all of this. You don't get that kind of support from the other marques anymore.

[birdmove]

    Good news for you!! We finally got a beautiful day here in western Wa. State yesterday. We had my 91 year old Mother and my niece over. My wife,Mom and I played four games of three-handed pinochle (my Mom loves to play!). I won two and Mom won two. My Mom still drive at 91, but only in the daylight-though yesterday my niece was her driver. Anyway, after the card games and after they left, I fired off One Kick and took her for about a 50 mile ride. Topped her off after and got 88.12 miles per US gallon!! Looks like I may be selling my KLR650 pretty soon to a coworker and the Bullet will then be one half of my motorcycle fleet (also have a Yamaha XT225 dual sport).The Bullet is coming up on 800 miles soon.
    Glad to hear your getting yours back. I would miss mine something fierce.

    Jon in Puyallup, Wa. USA

[Jerry]

What was the problem?  Did they explain why it happened?

My 08 AVL is now at 635 miles...I'm just a bit nervous.

Jerry

[cyrusb]

Ya know, T120rbullet may be right about the motorcycle business being lax. I have two friends not riding brand new high end bikes because of parts availability. Still another is waiting 5 months for a center stand for a BMW . So it don't look like a third world issue, it looks pretty universal.

[REpozer]

Welcome back ridgerunner .Let me hear your guns!

[ridgerunner]

What was the problem?  Did they explain why it happened?

My 08 AVL is now at 635 miles...I'm just a bit nervous.

Jerry

I can't get free from work to pick it up until Saturday (the dealer is about 150 miles away) but I assure you I will ask plenty of questions and fill you in.

[LJRead]

Really happy for you ridgerunner.  We, as humans, tend to forget the bad things and move on.  Forgive and forget!

Good luck,

LJ

[ridgerunner]

I worked til midnight, went home for a few hours then drove the 2 1/2 hours out to Velocity. Picked up the bike and hauled it 2 1/2 hours back home just in time to grab a bite to eat, unload the bike and ride it on in to work. All seems well but I may need to make another clutch adjustment. It doesn't feel like it wants to creep with the clutch in but it seems to take more effort to roll it backward as if it's still engaged ever so slightly. Honestly, it may have been like that before and I just never noticed, but I would think that even the slightest drag would cause it to heat up while sitting at a traffic light without being in neutral. All I do know for sure is it's great to have it back home!

[birdmove]

  I never sit in gear on any motorcycle.Especially my Bullet.I fond neutral while I'm still rolling a little, and sit there in neutral. I don't think these bikes like sitting in gear at all.
    jon

[Vince]

     I run a full liter of 20W50. It really does help and does not affect clutch usage. Most of my starter clutch issues are with low mile or infrequent use units. Trying to start with a low battery (from sitting) causes the kick back that damages them. The guys that use their bike regularly don't have nearly as many issues.
     At a stop put the bike in neutral. You will have problems if you don't.The clutch will drag, and you will fry the clutch push rod, thus losing use of the clutch.

[ridgerunner]

     I run a full liter of 20W50. It really does help and does not affect clutch usage. Most of my starter clutch issues are with low mile or infrequent use units. Trying to start with a low battery (from sitting) causes the kick back that damages them. The guys that use their bike regularly don't have nearly as many issues.
     At a stop put the bike in neutral. You will have problems if you don't.The clutch will drag, and you will fry the clutch push rod, thus losing use of the clutch.

99% of the time I do stop in neutral, there's just one stop along my route where I need to turn left across two lanes of traffic. That's where I noticed the drag...that and the wheel spin even in neutral when on the centerstand.

[GreenMachine]

RidgeRunner: Talked with ya via email a couple of weeks ago....Read your lenghty discussion on the continuing saga of the terminal machine...What was the eventual fixes and your return to sanity???

[ridgerunner]

RidgeRunner: Talked with ya via email a couple of weeks ago....Read your lenghty discussion on the continuing saga of the terminal machine...What was the eventual fixes and your return to sanity???

I was told there was excessive run-out causing it to overheat. He had questioned the oil quality based on the overheating as these aluminum alloy models shed heat so well. Best we can figure is it just wasn't set up right in the first place. Now I've got all new parts and  so far everything seems to be ok. Only time will slowly rebuilt my trust and confidence in both the bike and the dealer. 125 miles so far this week and she's purring right along. As far as my return to sanity...my wife will tell you that's not to be expected!

[REpozer]

Do you believe that the fluid in the primary (420ml) may have been a factor?I still have what looks like factory ATF in mine.  My thoughts are to fill with 946ml(quart) of 10w-40 first 300mile service.(I operate in cool conditions 40F-65F or +5C to +20C)Thoughts? Suggestions?

[ridgerunner]

Do you believe that the fluid in the primary (420ml) may have been a factor?I still have what looks like factory ATF in mine.  My thoughts are to fill with 946ml(quart) of 10w-40 first 300mile service.(I operate in cool conditions 40F-65F or +5C to +20C)Thoughts? Suggestions?

Frankly, I don't believe the oil was the problem. If it was, more people would be having the same result. I would recommend you change the fluid at 300 miles and take a good look at it. Look for wear materials and other tell-tale indicators. I should have acted sooner after seeing metalic stuff in the oil instead of thinking "so this is what running-in the bike does". I would certainly take Vince's advice and add the whole liter (840ml) to protect against starter clutch issues. Just use a good grade of motorcycle specific oil that meets the manufacturers spec and it should be fine.

[jonapplegate]

If Vince says you should do something it would behoove you to do it. He is the man. I bought my bike from his shop. Before I even bought it he warned me about the starter(sprag)clutch. Said that there had been problems recently and expect it to go. That is honesty. This was before a fix had been thought up, like adding more oil than recommended to the primary case.
     Bottom line, VINCE + ADVICE = DO IT!

[ridgerunner]

Well, I've had the bike back for nearly 400 miles. During that time I have changed all the fluids and the primary twice. The oil from the primary was a honey-gold with only minor wear material. I adjusted the clutch cable at the tranny (felt a little drag when stopped) and changed the fluid a second time a hundred or so miles later just to be certain my adjustment didn't cause problems. Everything seems to be working smoothly and having taken Vince's advice on overfilling the primary, the clutch seems a lot smoother. I guess we'll never really know the root cause of the failure, but with a minor inconvenience, all has been corrected to my complete satisfaction. Thanks to all of you that gave advice and support, and a special thanks to our host for all of the behind-the-scenes support. Hope to see some of you out on the road!

[birdmove]

   Glad your back on the road again!!

    jon