[cyrusb]

I have tried to contact you on your website but to no avail. How is the progress? Seeing the wood models has me wanting more details. How about some cad renderings? I am very interested in oil pump type(hope it's not the piston), bottom end geometry (offset rods?), frame mods, etc. I know you are very busy with this huge undertaking, but any info will keep this potential buyer "on the boil". thanks Cyrus.

[ace.cafe]

Cyrus,
Aniket is at his daytime work right now.
I can give you some of the information.

Here is a pic of the castings, but the finish machining isn't complete yet.
This is the latest photo of the engine castings that I have seen.
They are cast in A356, and these pics are taken fresh out of the mold at the foundry.



The oil pump type is the Bullet positive displacement plunger.
The high volume types are used, and there are two of them.
Both of them are the large high volume return pumps, for most oil delivery.
They are both performing feed pump functions, one for  each cylinder.
The engine is wet-sump type, so no return pumps are needed, and it just drains down into the sump.
The oil filter will be the canister type, and will use the UCE oil filter element.
The rods are side-by-side on the same crankpin.
The timing side bearing is enlarged, using a 305 on the timing side now.
There is a windage tray in the sump to control the oil surge and control any oil being dragged around the flywheels, more than necessary.
The engine breather is baffled, and located in the back top  corner.
Valve lash adjustment is done under the rocker covers, and the pushrods will be upside down to facilitate the adjustment from the top.
The engine will have the tunnel across the oil tank, so that a left-shift 5-speed gearbox can be used. Or any right-shift Enfield gearbox.

There are only two sets of castings built at this time, and they are both pictured above.

The frame mods are likely to be about the same as the 700 Musket V-Twin, which required about 6" stretch in the top frame tube under the fuel tank. Engine mounting plates took care of the rest down below.
So, the wheelbase will be longer with this engine, than with the single.

Anything else you'd like to know?

[cyrusb]

Ace, thanks, sorry to hear about the plunger pumps,I thought this would be the golden opportunity for at least the gearotor units from the AVL. I'm not so crazy about the worm drive either, but I guess you can't have everything. Again thanks for the reply, Now I only need to know the price. cyrus

[ace.cafe]

Cyrus,
I think you'll find the plunger pumps will be providing plenty of delivery.
They have the Ace mods, and they are both hi-volume return pumps(11mm), which pushes quite a bit of flow. It's much more than a Bullet. More than double the Bulllet output on each pump, in fact.
However, I think that Aniket wanted to use a lot of the Bullet parts because of the donor engine being a Bullet. Kind of a family relationship.
With the Ace mods, the worm drive no longer suffers problems from over-pressure on the teeth, and with the twin, there won't really be any kick-backs to speak of.

The price is not decided yet.
Aniket will set the price. I can't speak for him on that.

[Ice]

Plunger pumps work.
 Besides delivering more than enough oil in this case another beautiful thing about them is that that they are simple for any decent machinist to make should replacement parts ever become scarce some generation in the future.

[cyrusb]

Yes they do, but not for even slightly high speeds. They were one of the reasons British motorcycles went the way of the dinosaur. Believe me, I had a garage full of them. It's a physics problem, At atmospheric pressure they simply will not fill fast enough at high speeds. If you are eating pavement at highway speeds, they will let you down. All (except maybe one) of the orphans I collected in the 70's and 80's had blown bottom ends and siezures due to some piston oil pump calamity. Agreed, they work well on B roads, but I would not go through the trouble building a v twin to putt around on B roads.

[ace.cafe]

They'll make it to over 100mph with no problem.
Or 80+mph all day, with a passenger on the pillion.
We do it all the time, with one 7.5mm feed pump plunger, on a 535.

The Musket uses two 11mm feed pump plungers.

The drive reduction on the worm.spindle is12:1.
At 6000 rpm, the pumps are running 500 rpm.

They fill just fine.

.

[cyrusb]

I hope your right Ace. I'm just looking at 100+ years of motorcycle history,hell ,all engine history, and it don't look good. Like I said in the earlier post, you can't have everything. I'm still interested.

[bulletwalla]

Hullo Cyrus,
Sincere apologies if you didn't get a reply, I've just been buried in the shop with figuring out the cnc setups and another project for a friend, am a bit behind on email replies.
I guess Tom filled in info, just a couple of things I can think of to clarify- real quick, here is a description of the oil circuit, excerpt from the Realclassic article :

In the Musket engine, both pumps are 'feed'
pumps and both use the larger 'return' plunger. Let us recall that the
stock 'return' plunger flows around twice the oil of the 'feed'
plunger to efficiently remove all oil from the crank chamber. Both
pumps tap independently into the wet sump. One pump feeds twice as
much filtered oil as stock to the crank big-end, (which now has two
conrods,allowing twice as much oil flow). The other feeds twice as
much oil as stock to the heads- which fits nicely because now there are
two of them. The heads drain into the timing chest, where the cams still spin in a generous oil bath.
Overflow from there drips back to the wet sump, via an external copper oil line that lubricates the drive side main bearings. This can be seen on the left side of the crankcase. In the new design, this is a 'cast in' feature with cooling fins and a boss which will allow a magnet inside to catch particles.
Reason for plungers- quite simply, the brief was to base the engine on the classic engine, and use as many of those internals as possible, consistently, keeping parts availability or fabrication as paramount so it can be run and maintained easily.  AVL spare parts are getting very hard to find, they were made for only a few years, in much smaller numbers compared to the cast iron barrel motor.
If you are very keen on the AVL style gear pumps, I think it *would* be possible to do an AVL style pump in the V twin, as the drive spindles and housing dimensions are quite similar- i think the musket cam cover can be machined to accept this- if someone has an AVL timing cover and oil pump stuff lying around that they can spare for a few days, I can measure, check and confirm if this can be done, I think it is likely.
I guess this makes sense if you're using roller bearing big ends which will allow the much higher flow.
Question for anyone who can shed light on this- I've never figured out how the avl gear pumps manage to work the return, sucking up from the crankcase...don't gearpumps need to be submerged/have gravity feed *into* the inlet before the teeth can 'push' oil through the outlet?
Crank bearings:I increased the sizes of the main
roller bearings on both drive and timing shafts. The puny 205 timing
side bearing has been upgraded to a 305- this is the same as that used
on the stock drive side. For the drive side, I upgraded the 305 to a
2305 bearing, which is 24mm wide, compared to 17mm, which is an
increase in width of 41%. This is also the largest roller bearing available for
a 25mm shaft.
Lastly, let us remember that for the same road speed, the V twin is revving lower, by atleast 25% as it has a larger output sprocket- the 700 has a 20 tooth which it seems to handle just fine, in bone stock tune...I should say the 1000 should easily do a 21-22 tooth.
Any other question, please do ask, I will check back here.

[Arizoni]

IMO, if the gerotor pump that is used in the AVL is unique to that engine it could be difficult to purchase.
That would make ita rather poor idea to use it in this new engine.

There is a (good?) chance that the gerotor pump being used in the UCE is the same pump as the one being used in the AVL.  (If I were designing the UCE engine and we already had a gerotor pump on hand that would meet the flow requirements of the new engine I would use it in my design for logistic reasons.)
I have a good feeling about the UCE and believe its gerotor oil pump would be a good candidate.
If the UCE  will be sold for many years to come as I believe it will,  its oil pump should be available.

A gear pump or a gerotor pump is self priming, that is, it can pump air although it is happier pumping oil.
Pumps of both the spur gear and the gerotor style are used on almost every automoble in the World and there is never a problem with the pump (which usually sits well above the oil level in the crankcase) sucking up oil after a oil change.
 
Pumps of this style, especially the gerotor pumps have extremely small clearances and precision fits so they do require oil just to lubricate them.

If the piston pumps rely on springs to return the pistons and to pump the oil their output pressure is self regulating.  Positive displacement pumps like a gerotor on the other hand require some sort of pressure relief valve to control the system pressure and bypass the extra oil to the sump.
If a gerotor or spur gear pump is being considered for use in this new engine, that needs to be taken into account.

I've used gerotor pumps in several designs and must agree that they have a very long life and are extremely dependable.

On the other hand, if they are run for any long length of time without some oil to lubricate them they will freeze up but then, so will a piston pump.

[Ice]

Here is link to a diagram of the Iron Barrels plunger type oil pumps.
http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/1624/Timing_Cover

The AVL uses a gear to gear rotary pump.

The UCE uses a single unitized gear rotor pump that has four times the volume.
Link to article.
http://www.royalenfields.com/2009/02/royal-enfield-bullet-c5-uce-motor-gear.html

I have pics of both the AVL and UCE pumps on my old computer that died.

In searching the web for pics, this wiki article on the two is the best I could do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_pump

[cyrusb]

I'm good with the details, as Ace said, they are pushing the Fireballs to highway speeds with good results. The failing piston pumps were mostly Triumphs that ran at half crank speed off the intake cam with the craziest Scotch yoke arrangement. My last question : Since you tightened up the v angle will the frame lengthening be less than the original Musket? Thanks , Cyrus

[Arizoni]

Thanks for the links Ice.

Last night as I was reading my newly bought "Royal Enfield- the Post War Models" I found a description of the Iron Barrel pumps and realized my comment about plunger pumps relying on springs was a bit off.

As this new engine will be running plain sleeve bearings on the big end of the connecting rod,  a good supply of oil is an absolute requirement so using the larger 'return pump' plunger to act as a supply pump is a good idea.

Rolling element bearings can survive quite nicely with very little lubrication.  The ball or roller separator is the only part that actually requires a constant oil flow.
 
With sleeve bearings on the other hand, any disruption in the oil supply can result in the oil film layer between the stationary and moving surfaces vanishing.  If this happens under full load, metal to metal contact is very likely which will result in a failure of the bearing.

I still feel it is too bad that the gerotor pump wasn't selected for the initial design but trying to incorporate it into the design now would be a major undertaking.  Dare I say, almost impossible without major casting changes.

[ace.cafe]

Guys,
If you could see the gushing oil that is coming out of these piston pumps that we have blueprinted for the Fireball, you would not be having ANY reservations about oil flow with them.

I have probably mentioned this before somewhere, but we discovered the secret to getting huge flow out of these Bullet plunger pumps last summer. The flow was so huge that the first time we tried it on the Badger bike, the oil backed-up the pushrod tunnels and filled up the head, and we got oil leaks squirting out everywhere it could come out.
We had to enlarge the oil return drain holes in the tappet galley and in the passages from the timing chest back to the oil tank, by doubling their size, just to stop the flow from backing-up.
That's how much flow we are getting.
And that was with one 7.5mm feed pump, and one 11mm return pump.
At the same time,we reduced the stress on the worm gear and spindle teeth, so that they won't be likely to break anymore. We also reduced the pumping losses in the oil pumping system, so that we use less hp pumping the oil around.

Aniket is very aware of our proprietary modifications, and he has his crankcases all set to work with these pumps in the most effective way.

Believe me guys, the oil system is NOT lacking now.
But, we're the only ones who know this, because we discovered it, and optimized it, and it works like a charm.

 

[bulletwalla]

Thanks Tom, for filling in the details on the oil pump mods...I'd also like to recall that Bullets with the plunger pumps are routinely seen in vintage racing where they stand up to sustained high rpm thrashing and do well.
Just a couple of clarifications from Tom's original post of the tech. outline of the motor, the 2 oil pumps are not 'one for each cylinder' but one pump for the crank bigends and the other for the heads. the 2 are independent of each other, both will accept high capacity plungers.
Secondly, the 2 castings seen above aren't A356 but 319, it was simply a time thing- the 319 castings were available same day as 319 is ready to machine as-cast, but 356 has to be sent for T6 solution heat treatment to be machinable. 356 is slightly stronger but the cases have been generously over-designed in terms of thicker walls all round and strength should not be an issue...regardless, they can be poured in either 319 or 356 as desired. Both alloys are commonly used in automotive crankcase castings.
About the increase in wheelbase, I have been sketching and planning a down tube mod which should reduce the amount of stretch required to the bare minimum, the prototype will yield info on just how much this will be, but certainly less than 6".
Thanks very much,
Aniket