[palace15]

The prices in the UK are even higher than the US and it is definitely affecting sales. Pre-UCE era the Watsonian, (the UK importers), website used to boast that Enfield sales were increasing year on year in a declining market. No longer. I am reliably informed they are selling half the numbers they used to. It's quite simple: an Enfield Classic costs the same as a BMW 650 single. The BMW has twice the horsepower and the same fuel consumption. It's just one example. The Honda 250 single offering very similar performance and fuel consumption to the Enfield is much cheaper. Of course the Enfield offers a certain experience that is simply unique and there are those who will pay for it and put up with the niggles that come with it. Unfortunately for Watsonian though the average UK punter looks at the market with a good deal more objectivity. Granted this is a problem for Watsonian rather than Royal Enfield at the moment as their home market is booming. Sooner or later though they will come up against the same competition that did for the Brit industry in the 70s.

Very good points made in this post, it will be interesting to keep an eye on sales figures of Enfields in India, as when I was there I heard the Enfield being referred to as a 'truck' and numerous times as a 'gas guzzler', the place is swarming with low capacity small bikes up to about 150cc, the young riders are not interested in RE's. time my friends will tell,

[singhg5]

Very good points made in this post, it will be interesting to keep an eye on sales figures of Enfields in India, as when I was there I heard the Enfield being referred to as a 'truck' and numerous times as a 'gas guzzler', the place is swarming with low capacity small bikes up to about 150cc, the young riders are not interested in RE's. time my friends will tell,

Very interesting observation that I can attest to as well.

Not long ago, I was out with my RE and had stopped at a lake. There a young guy from Chennai (India) who looked at my bike and asked 'Is it a German motorcycle?' I was shocked to hear that he did not know that RE was made in his home town.  

Japanese bikes sold in the millions have taken over the general population in India. RE makes only a miniscule number (1%) of the total motorcycle output in India. But it is in no danger because it is a niche market bike and will remain that way, like it has for 100 years.

[Ice]

 As long as R.E. does not pull the same crap on their customer base that H-D did in the '90's, they should do alright.

 The super secret twin cylinder that the wizards of Chennai are working on will no doubt cause some excitement when the veil of secrecy is lifted.

 I would also like to see them offer a 150cc import killer aimed dead center bulls eye at the domestic small bike market  

[GreenMachine]

I'm going back 20 yrs, so I'm  sure their been  improvement in commerce between us and the government of India....When they had the Brits finally leave, the newly formed  government set a  policy of self reliance and local productivity..One of those  objectives was feeding the masses with the resources that Mother India provided. to her people.  For the most part they were successful in that endeavor. Regarding importation of western products,  I wasn't able to get a coke in the capitol back in 87...CocoCola Corp. wasn't permitted access to the  beverage markets....I was  under the impression that the Indians were suspicious of dealing with western and/or  outside business interest...That said, they are tough business people and being a American or Europe doesn't necessarily get you a leg up with them...They are well versed in business and know what works there and what doesn't..Your not going to pull the wool over them and get the upper hand..As stated, my thinking is 20 yrs ago, so I wasn't surprise to hear that Harley had set up shop there but didn't know the particulars...

[Ice]

 I will bet dollars to doughnuts H-D®© is taking the soft approach to cozying up to India and its vast potential market for H-D®© products as well as its manufacturing potential.

Smart move on their part.

[trimleyman]

To buttress Mr. Singhs point about us being interconnected.....
Harley was unable to get into the Indian market because the emission laws in India did not allow for big displacement motorcycles. After several years of negotiating India agreed to loosen their emission laws to allow Harley into the country in exchange for the US allowing Indian Mangos to be imported to the US. There is still a very stiff duty on foreign made  vehicles which makes the Harley very expensive.

India's duty structure like many countries allow for a lower duty if the product is assembled in India which provides jobs and some technology transfer. Duty is nil if you manufacture there unless you import parts for which you pay duty. It is a totally bizarre policy which brings jobs to the country, a  concept that is lost on American politicians.

Harley is starting to assemble bikes in India (gee more jobs) and without a doubt will be manufacturing there before too terribly long.

I am no expert in global trade but it seems to me that we are chumps.

Have to agree with you Kevin. I used to work in international shipping in the UK dealing with just about every countries customs over a 15 year period.  Here in the US we are killing our ability to manufacture through shortsighted political actions. I would not be surprised to see Harley move their whole  production overseas and there have been talk in biking circles to that effect including India as the production center.

[palace15]

Japanese bikes sold in the millions have taken over the general population in India. RE makes only a miniscule number (1%) of the total motorcycle output in India. But it is in no danger because it is a niche market bike and will remain that way, like it has for 100 years.

If RE don't learn from the mistakes that Britain made then like all the rest of the 'old' British bikes, Enfields will also become extinct. Britain sat back and watched the Japanese come and take our motorcycle market even though they used no 'new' ideas that had not been used before, they arrived with fast, fairly economical and oiltight bikes, and once this happened, 'the writing was on the wall'. Enfield need to act, and act fast, another poster stated the need for a smaller capacity bike, and what is it all about when I read in 'Classic bike' magazine (March 2012) that RE will bring out a Cafe racer............in 2014?? why so long? strange thing is, I photographed one very similar machine outside the factory and the guy riding it was more than happy for me to look at it, will post pictures as soon as.
When I first started riding the old guy that taught me was a Norton Commando owner and had been for a number of years, well circa 1994 he told me that Norton were developing a Wankel rotary engined bike, when did that bike surface? around 1986-87?. Non Japanese companies need to either wake-up or roll over.
How many have ever read 'What ever happened to the British motorcycle industry'? by Bert Hopwood, read that and weep, each member of management of the British motorcycle manufacturers should have been put up against a wall and shot!!

[Maturin]

Palace15, I think you're missing the point. There are no similarities to the British motorcycle industry and RE in India today. There will be no fast transition from a working horse towards a hobby tool in India like it happened in Europe in the 50ies and 60ies. India is different.
I oppose the idea of a small capacity bike. With Chinese, Korean and Japanese competitors the margin would be zero, and RE does not have enough resources to manufacture these bikes by the thousands.
RE's long-term strategy is quite right, methinks. Getting into the premium market with medium- and big bikes is a good plan for survival. Improving quality constantly is for sure part of this plan.

[2bikebill]

"Getting into the premium market with medium and big bikes is a good plan for survival. Improving quality constantly is for sure part of this plan"

I broadly agree with this. But it's a good strategy only if they they take the quality issue a lot more seriously. We all know that a certain, uh, philosophical attitude has to be adopted when you own a Royal Enfield - it's part of the charm of course. But the quality & reliability of a brand new bike shouldn't be a matter of pure chance, and with Royal Enfield it still is!  Not a few of us here have had to adopt a degree of optimism and positive thinking bordering on delusional in order to keep that dumb RE grin on our faces. But hope can only triumph over experience for so long. The word gets out eventually, and there are plenty of better made and cheaper bikes available - and yep, believe it or not, some as much fun to ride as an obsolete old banger still being poorly lashed together in the sub-continent....

[tooseevee]

As stated, my thinking is 20 yrs ago, so I wasn't surprise to hear that Harley had set up shop there but didn't know the particulars...

            The way business has been treated as a punching bag & political football by this administration for the past 3 1/2 years & will continue to be treated during the SECOND term, can we blame ANY business for getting the hell out? The U.S. has become the WORST, most difficult place in the World to operate a business.

             Except for the engines, transmissions, frames & a few other pieces, harleys have been mostly Chinese for 30 years already anyway. Just go into any dealership anywhere & look on the back of the labels on EVERYthing in the whole place.   

[GreenMachine]

 Except for the engines, transmissions, frames & a few other pieces, harleys have been mostly Chinese for 30 years already anyway.

I didn't know that,.I was in one of the shops (I mean stores),,They sure sell alot of everything in there...Take the Enfield catalogue that we get every year and times it by 20...Their bikes are beautiful machines but I thought the Chinese and India connection was for just certain model bikes or just the merchandise stuff.
Their plant in York Pa. is about 2 .5 hours north of me...Next time I get the urge I'll take a look again at the store in Manassas or Orange...
Makes you wonder if the older made in U.S. machine might be worth more one day vice the overseas production.

[The Garbone]

I don't get that vibe from HD.  Pretty much every part I get from the local dealer has been American made.  Even the footpegs.  

Now the overpriced bling they sell to the weekend warriors, that is another story.

[2bikebill]

".....The U.S. has become the WORST, most difficult place in the World to operate a business....."

  Ahem  -  second worst .....    

[Kevin Mahoney]

These are not the kind of threads I normally like to get involved in but............

The Indian two wheeler market in India has always been centered around small cc units. I am guessing that in excess of 10,000,000 units will be sold there this year and almost all of them will be small cc. The same is true in any developing market. It is only a recent thing in India for the leisure market to even exist. If only came to be as money started to slow into India and people started to have disposable income.

Any two wheeler company in India worth it's salt in the main market in India will make over 1.000.000 units in a year. By comparison RE will make 108,000 this year. This is up from the 25,000 we used to make year after year after year. Things have gone exceedingly well for RE over the past several years. There are long waiting lists to buy a bike and bookings keep rising. They have  enough cash to really fuel R and D and build  a brand new state of the art factory which  is under construction.

The current plant has been steadily modernized since about 2012.  We still hand build a lot of the bike but that is by design and not default.

We are a very small player in India and always will be. Who wants to compete in a market with huge companies selling what amounts to a commodity where margins are razor thin? If you don't sell a million or more you don't exist. Who needs that?

By comparison on the world stage Triumph only made around 50,000 units last year. Harley, Triumph and most of the other brands are salivating over the Indian market and are trying to get in and get a foot hold. In the long run some of them will succeed but only when they either assemble or manufacture there.

I would take any bet that says that Harley will be manufacturing there within 5 years. They are already assembling. Perhaps only for the Asian markets. Why wouldn't they? Things aren't going all that well in the US, their market is aging out and it is tough to make things here for export. The Asian market is young and wants the product. Triumphs are made in Thailand (some assembly required). Bajaj has a large stake in KTM and the list goes on. It was recently reported in the industry press that Hero Motors from India was taking a look at Ducati which is for sale. (Now it looks like VW is the front runner)/

Through our prisim  here in the US RE is a very small player, but on the global stage not so much. It is difficult to make a good analysis from what we see here. Quality is another good example. I see all of the warranty claims and know what the reality of quality is. Do we run into problems - of course we do. But the key is in the numbers. I have read every warranty claim since RE came back to the US. I see a lot of blanket statements that just don't hold water when you look at the actual numbers. It is easy take one guys failures and assume that everyone is experiencing the same thing. It is also easy  to take a couple of statements and globalize them. (All bets are off with the iron barrel bikes because the technology was so old and the usage patterns here are no different than the bike was designed for).  There is a big difference between anecdotal information and empirical information.

As always another long rambling post

[palace15]

Hi Kevin
Thank you for your input, remember that each and everyone of us posting on this forum, owns, rides and loves our Enfields, but we must not ever fall into the trap of viewing them through 'rose tinted specs' and I believe honesty and openly voiced opinions are valued.