[MOKAN-BULLET]

A couple of nights ago I had to brake hard to avoid a dog (big dog) both me and the dog are safe

I heard a snap and my rear brakes went slack. I assumed it was a spring in the hub.

Upon inspection tonight I think I broke a bolt!



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[deejay]

my god, thats dangerous. the more I read about these bikes, the more I want to replace with non-indian parts.

[mrunderhill1975a]

Yep, I think you need a new bolt there if you want your rear brake to work properly.

[abe]

That aint good.....

You must have held it down hard and skidded a ways, then you heard a snap?

Glad you are ok!

abe

[Vince]

     When the brake anchor fails the brake panel assembly spins with the drum. This usually damages the shoes and the actuating linkage. You MUST disassemble the wheel and carefully inspect all components. Replace any thing that is even marginal. A hair line crack in the shoe will fail later.  The bolt did not shear because it was made in India. It got loose. The looser it got the more it wiggled back and forth under braking and acceleration loading. This caused the fracture that led to failure. Enfields vibrate. Check fasteners on a regular basis.

[deejay]

The bolt did not shear because it was made in India. It got loose.

Maybe you're right, I've just been reading a lot of bottom end threads, and frankly they've got me a bit annoyed with what has happened to people. I've decided to replace practically the entire bottom end when I run into some more cash. Seems to me if a bit more effort was put into the assembly we may have a more reliable bike on our hands. Thats all.

[LJRead]

Like anything else, if you look at your bike as a whole, it will seem like an impossible job to optimize it, but breaking it down into systems and trying to optimize each system, will organize and simplify the task.

Thus;1) Engine - bottom end system, top end system
         2) Transmission, clutch, kick start mechanism
         3)  Fuel - carburetor, air and fuel filtration, fuel tank, tank valve
         4)  Brakes - linkages, shoes
         5)  Electrical - lights, ignition, storage (battery), switches and controls
         6) Sheet metal and cosmetics
         7) Tyres
Probably others as well, but then you analyze what needs to be done to perfect each system and what spares and tools need to be on hand.

Gradually you can come to grips with the beast and it becomes less confusing. Also you can spread it all over time so costs can be handled.  Starting with the most critical for general operation, but also this can be things that are bothering you about the bike.

Problem is, we read all the horror stories and it all seems to pile up until the bike seems of poor quality and no good at all.  I don't think this is the case.  There are thousands of satisfied owners who will swear by them as being good and reliable.

We have a medical book with all the ills of mankind in it, and my son always refused to read it because he got to thinking everything about him was going wrong.  We tend to do the same with our bikes.

[Vince]

     LJ, that is an excellent outlook. My first year with Enfield was filled with crises and trouble. I had to learn to accept the bike for what it is, not for what I thought it should be. I have learned to impart this understanding to my customers. Let me stress: there is nothing WRONG with the bike. You simply need to ride it as it was designed to be ridden, and you must maintain it as it was intended to be maintained. Do this and you will have a really great time with a reliable bike. It's like being married. Ignore the needs of your wife at your peril. Enfields are the same way. A little attention goes a long way. 

[geoffbaker]

So apparently more foreplay will improve your RE's performance.

hmmm

[Kevin Mahoney]

I understand that you got the parts you needed today. Sort of interesting as I am certain that we have never sold one of those before. I have seen every last warranty claim over the past 10 years and have never seen that one before. On the other happen it something can break it will. While I have no idea how it broke etc. I would tend to agree with Vince about the country of origin not being the issue. We have sold a lot of Indian made parts over the years and really don't find that many defects. For the most part there really aren't any "better" parts to use especially over the lst few years. There are some things to be aware of when buying parts though.
1. Buying parts on the street or from Indian vendors can be hazardous. There is a big business in counterfeit parts in India many packaged in Enfield wrappings or "made by the company that supplies Enfield" parts. Some are OK and most aren't.I had a hard time believing this until I spend years researching vendors and parts in India. Trust me it is true. We stick strictly to factory parts for this reason. In a pinch we may buy something from another supplier, but only if we know the supplier and a lot about the part we are buying. Also there are many parts for export bikes that are only available from the factory. My point is that most factory parts are really quite good, especially stuff that has been sold in the past 5 years or so. Another thing to remember is that the factory is always improving parts. The improved parts really are improved and they are almost always not available on the street even though most vendors will tell you that these are the lastest. We know from experience that this is bad road to go down becuase they aren't. Even honest vendors will tell you that because they just plain don't know. One other thing to be aware of in India that when it comes to replacement parts the Indian customer is only interested in price 99% of the time, hence the huge market for knocked off parts.

  Believe it or not Enfield spends a lot of time and money on materials specifications, development and testing. This didn't used to be the case but over the past several years they have gained a great deal of sofistication and have hired some very highly educated and experienced materials engineers.

As usual I am way too long winded. I agree with something someone else said about us only hearing about the bad things. The much maligned bottom end is a good example. The actual failure rate within the first year is less than 2%. After that it seems to go down. The failures we see are due to the following in no particular order;
1. Who knows why?
2. Excessive RPMs - We have had many racers use the stock bottom end. IT is fine as long as you use the toque and don't look for rpms. Anything over about 6,000 - 6,500 will eventurally cause trouble
3. Oil system failure for any number of reasons including running it out of oil (yes it happens)
4. Overheating which causes a piston seizure which then takes the crank with it
5. Bad crank bearings (usually on the timing side). We used to see these more in 1999-2000 but not much any more.
6. Defective crank from the factory - They used to have a.006" runout tolerance. Much over that could cause trouble. Now they run around .001" or less. But a bad one does come along once in a while. They almost always show themselves in the first several hundred miles or before.
7. Heavily modified engines - more that a 535 kit, cab and exhaust

To be sure there are some parts that you can find that may be good replacements, but remember "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[Kevin Mahoney]

Women have needs?

[mrunderhill1975a]

It appears from the photo that there is some rust on the broken part of the bolt, which would indicate to me that it had been cracked for some period of time before it broke completely through.  Was there any indication that the bolt had been over torqued at some time in the past?  Was there any stretching of the metal near the break point?

At any rate, it looks like a good opportunity to have some fun on the weekend wrenching the rear end.  I find that working on a bullet is almost as fun as riding one.

[MOKAN-BULLET]

I had some work done to the bike just a few weeks ago I has some serious issues with the charging system had to have the alternator replaced while it was in I had the tires replaced. I've only ridden the bike a few times since then I wounder in that bolt was over tightened?

When it happened there was no skiding it snapped almost immediately. The dog was so close that his tail slapped my leg on the way by  

I checked the bike out the best I could by the light of a street light but couldn't see any thing wrong. I rode the rest of the way home i work the Mid shift 10 pm to 6am so most of my riding is done in the dark.

After some sleep and a closer inspection in the sun light I noticed the broken Bolt and a very tight chain.

I feel very luck that the whole rear wheel didn't leave the bike. I'm think about buying a lottery ticket.

Parts are on the way I'll be spending the weekend in pieces

[MOKAN-BULLET]

Vince

I ordered new shoes and all the little parts for the brakes as well

[Anon]

I had some work done to the bike just a few weeks ago I has some serious issues with the charging system had to have the alternator replaced while it was in I had the tires replaced. I've only ridden the bike a few times since then I wounder in that bolt was over

Interesting... I just had some new tires put on my bike and have only ridden it a few times since (spent a week sick and couldn't ride  ).  After seeing your post I checked the same bolt on my bike and it was loose!  It didn't appear loose, but it was just barely finger tight.  Looks like another thing to apply some loctite to.  I'm sorry you had a close call but I'm glad it made me catch a loose bolt on my bike!

Eamon

[cyrusb]

Thats pretty scary stuff. I personally have never seen such poor quality fits of fasteners since I last built a swingset for my kids. I just hope the engine-tranny internal fasteners have a better quality fit. A problem I see is that some of the bolts appear to have cut threads as opposed to rolled threads, cut threads are prone to cracking in applications that vibrate..

[LotusSevenMan]

Ooooh.
Guess what I'll be checking first chance I get then!!!! 
Good shout.

[deejay]

Thats pretty scary stuff. I personally have never seen such poor quality fits of fasteners since I last built a swingset for my kids. I just hope the engine-tranny internal fasteners have a better quality fit.

I wouldn't bet on it.

[LotusSevenMan]

Just looked and my 'bolt' isn't one!
Mine is all in place and is a stud with a washer and nut which is all tight when I checked with a spanner on the Classic 2003 European spec bike. Now that might make rear wheel removal a bit trickier (never done it yet as bike only has about 950 miles on it) but a decent stud means that even if the nut were to fall off then the brake plate still can't twist.

[LJRead]

Mine is a stud as well, a 2003 Thunderbird shipped from India direct.  Wonder what gives here?

[cyrusb]

Well, that is a stud, but bad threads are bad threads no matter what they are cut into. At least the rod does not have a cap!!!

[Kevin Mahoney]

The rear wheel can  be removed without touching the rear sprocket to chain. Kind of a cool feature of the RE.
I believe that the missing bolt is in fact a stud. I think it is the rear end of the brake show stop.

[MOKAN-BULLET]

I got it all taken apart today take a look at the broken S*HT

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[MOKAN-BULLET]

AND

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[Kevin Mahoney]

Did you have to use a torch to get it out? Looks like a lot of heat damage to both pieces, what do you think? How were the rest of the internals?. Also what do you think caused the bend in the stud?
Also for what it is worth, the pictures are great but if you could cut them down to about half that size before you upload, would be easier to scroll over at least on my screen. (Nice bike by the way - did it start as a regular 500 and then you added the disk brake etc? I like the windshield and gauge as well.

[MOKAN-BULLET]

Sorry for the size they are big on my screen as well

I bought the bike last summer in Nashville. The guy was a tinkerer he did all the upgrades and mods. i just ride 

[MOKAN-BULLET]

I used the vise grips to get the stud out I hope the treads will be ok. I should get the rest of my parts next week.

[cyrusb]

Right click on the photo and select "open in new window". You can even zoom in then. I wonder which part broke first?

[MOKAN-BULLET]

Well I got it put back together this morning but no test ride to wind in Kansas to ride today.

I'm head for bed

[MOKAN-BULLET]

I got to test ride Friday envning looks like every thing went back togeter fine, no extra parts. She rides well ,my son and I rode 2 up to and from his track meet on Saterday.

I want to say thanks to evey one for your input and help It feels good to fix your self

thanks

[SRL790]

I had a very similar experience not too long ago.  I was cruising down the road, perhaps enjoying the scenery a little too much, when I found myself fast approaching a corner and braked a little harder than I usually do.   The rear wheel locked up, which I would have put down to operator error, except that when I took my foot off the pedal it remained locked up.  Somehow I did stay on the bike and make the corner, all be it on the wrong side of the road (nothing coming the other way, fortunately), the wheel freed up and I rode home, real slowly, after a brief inspection.

Well I just got around to pulling the wheel off and taking a look today and the picture below shows what I found.  My stud did not break but it bent the brake cover plate, the brake shoes, and the flat part of the swing arm where the stud secures.  The nut on the stud was tight.

I know my bike is an antique but the brake set up looks almost identical to the pictures that Mokan posted.  I was wondering if anyone knows if I can take the entire cover plate assembly from an Indian Bullet and install it on mine.  Anybody upgraded their brakes and got one kicking around?



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[cyrusb]

SRL70 Now thats interesting! What year is your Enfield, its a redditch bike isn't it? This may mean some of these these defects are in the DNA and not specific to Indian manufacture. The more I fiddle with my bike the more I remember all the design flaws of my bsa's and triumph's.  In many ways the re's are an improvement over them.  The starter pedal may come loose, but the shaft wont wring off. Five speed RE's have rock solid shifters, as opposed to the bsa's tiny shaft's. Also they are very easily started with the kick pedal, (try a 441 victor sometime ).

[cyrusb]

Hate to bring this up front again ,but It's a huge safety issue that needs addressing. It is unlikely that stud (.437 in diameter )could be sheared by the brake even if it is loose. I believe  it's the design of the stay itself that is the culprit. If you adjust your  chain and the axle is skewed, the backing plate will not meet the left axle plate squarely. When this happens the stud will also be skewed to the axle plate. The effect this has on the stud is as if there is a wedged shaped washer under the nut. This puts an unintended bending moment on the stud, right where you don't want it, on the threads. O.K so this means these bikes don't have any wheel alignment leeway. That backing plate HAS to run parallel to the axle plate, or else. Most other machines have the "link to the swingarm" method that is more  forgiving to missalignment. This is my opinion and any other  ideas would be welcome. This issue has been on my mind every time I ride, and I hardly ever use the back brake. But I know I'll be needing it big time if the front brake cable pops.....

[baird4444]

after all said...

it makes sense that IF  the backing plate bolt is NOT  loosed  first anytime that the the rear axle is moved; like during a chain adjust; you are STRESSING it. The procedures call for it to be loosened 1st; and tightened last while it is being centered by putting pressure on the brake pedal.

If we don't follow these procedures then we can build in stress b4 we  have even touched the rear brake pedal..
                        - mike