Author Topic: Ace UCE project.  (Read 163783 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Roeland

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
  • Karma: 0
Reply #435 on: August 26, 2014, 05:37:27 am
Hi Tom,

What would be your final estimate in terms of power gain?

Thanks

Roeland


Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,038
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Reply #436 on: August 26, 2014, 05:52:50 am
Way to go Ace!


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #437 on: August 26, 2014, 12:05:33 pm
Hi Tom,

What would be your final estimate in terms of power gain?

Thanks

Roeland
I would think it should be somewhere near the other Fireballs, like something in the low to mid 30s. I think it should do the Ton, if the rev limiter is moved out of the way, and you can get 6000 rpm in top gear. The cams have a little shorter duration than the Fireball cams, but I think there is enough breathing there. We'll have to see how it goes.

It will need to be checked for piston to valve clearance when you are assembling it. It might be pretty close to the piston at TDC, so we have to check it.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


mattsz

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,525
  • Karma: 0
  • moto-gurdyist
Reply #438 on: August 26, 2014, 03:26:14 pm
That's good news!

No bottom end work or upgrades for this?

The elephant in the room, I guess, is the crank balance question?  Rev limiter or none, my bike's engine vibrations range from manageable up to 4000rpms, uncomfortable above 4000 rpm, to virtually unrideable at 5000rpm.  What good would the performance upgrades be?  If the alignment and balance of the UCE cranks can't be adjusted, does that add the cost of a new crank to the mix?


Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,038
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Reply #439 on: August 26, 2014, 04:00:05 pm
In pretty sure they can be adjusted, but you have to take it out to do it.

Scott


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #440 on: August 26, 2014, 04:08:46 pm
That's good news!

No bottom end work or upgrades for this?

The elephant in the room, I guess, is the crank balance question?  Rev limiter or none, my bike's engine vibrations range from manageable up to 4000rpms, uncomfortable above 4000 rpm, to virtually unrideable at 5000rpm.  What good would the performance upgrades be?  If the alignment and balance of the UCE cranks can't be adjusted, does that add the cost of a new crank to the mix?
That"s a good question.
At this time, it appears to be relative to the individual machine in question

If the engine has a good build, there should be no problems using it "as is".
The vibration amount varies from one bike to the next, and there actually can be other contributors of vibrations than just crank trueness, and different riders have different levels of sensitivity to the vibrations.
So, it is quite an individual situation. Much of it would be based on how well the factory built a given engine.
The OEM parts and basic design should be capable to handle the upgrade.

I will say that the improvements are not restricted to high rpms, and there is a good amount of torque increase in moderate rpms, and a relatve "ease" of how the bike seems to feel when riding, without the feeling like it is struggling. This is seen in the other Fireballs, and when you ride at 60mph, it feels mote relaxed, as if you were riding at 40.
But if the crank actually is out of true badly enough to rattle your teeth, it should be addressed because that won't be too good for a stock bike either.

All I can really say about it is that we can offer these power upgrade parts, and each owner needs to assess his own bike and situation to determine suitability of application regarding the factory bottom end.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Roeland

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
  • Karma: 0
Reply #441 on: August 26, 2014, 04:19:11 pm
Strange -I don't seem to get excessive vibrations - I'm more concerned with the handling of the bike once you hit a ton. So far I feel relatively uncomfortable at a gps speed of 140 km per hour. I probably end up stiffening the swing arm as per GHG and perhaps look at different shocks.....not that intend riding at a ton but it would be great to comfortable cruise at 120 km per hour with some overtaking ability. mmmhh...maybe I put clip on's and rear sets on my military?


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #442 on: August 26, 2014, 06:14:53 pm
That's good news!

No bottom end work or upgrades for this?

The elephant in the room, I guess, is the crank balance question?  Rev limiter or none, my bike's engine vibrations range from manageable up to 4000rpms, uncomfortable above 4000 rpm, to virtually unrideable at 5000rpm.  What good would the performance upgrades be?  If the alignment and balance of the UCE cranks can't be adjusted, does that add the cost of a new crank to the mix?


 My bottom end has not been touched  :o ::)   I live in the RPM range of 2800-4200.... Where it's important. AND I DO NOT hold back from reving it to it's red line. The vibes that some experience , I believe anyway. Has more to do with the way the motor is mounted.... as to how it SHOULD be mounted.  The is a reason why I pulled my bike down to the molecular level, and re mounted the motor... And NOT just to paint the frame. The motor should fit in there nicely, without stress, and without flex. I haven't had to touch or tighten any of the nuts or bolts on my motor mounts since.

 You don't cruise at 5000 rpms or 5500 rpms or 6000 rpms.   Those are area's where your peak numbers are.... and lower then that on a stock bike for sure.  You rev to your peaks ... or a Little beyond. When it's needed for power, then shift and you are still in that peak area. Race stuff, hot rod stuff or for passing.   And you would certainly not want to cruise at 5000 rpms on a stock bike, because you are beyond your peak number, and the power is falling off. Just wasted over reving and stressing the motor.



Strange -I don't seem to get excessive vibrations - I'm more concerned with the handling of the bike once you hit a ton. So far I feel relatively uncomfortable at a gps speed of 140 km per hour. I probably end up stiffening the swing arm as per GHG and perhaps look at different shocks.....not that intend riding at a ton but it would be great to comfortable cruise at 120 km per hour with some overtaking ability. mmmhh...maybe I put clip on's and rear sets on my military?
   

 Roland, these chassis perform stunning well at low speeds and top speeds when they are set up right.  They handle like a dream.. All around.  That change they made to the geometry , I think, makes them sluggish.  More weight .... your weight ! shifted forward with clip on's or clubmans only makes it better.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 10:15:20 pm by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


mattsz

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,525
  • Karma: 0
  • moto-gurdyist
Reply #443 on: August 27, 2014, 12:57:34 pm

 My bottom end has not been touched  :o ::)   I live in the RPM range of 2800-4200.... Where it's important. AND I DO NOT hold back from reving it to it's red line. The vibes that some experience , I believe anyway. Has more to do with the way the motor is mounted.... as to how it SHOULD be mounted.  The is a reason why I pulled my bike down to the molecular level, and re mounted the motor... And NOT just to paint the frame. The motor should fit in there nicely, without stress, and without flex. I haven't had to touch or tighten any of the nuts or bolts on my motor mounts since.

 You don't cruise at 5000 rpms or 5500 rpms or 6000 rpms.   Those are area's where your peak numbers are.... and lower then that on a stock bike for sure.  You rev to your peaks ... or a Little beyond. When it's needed for power, then shift and you are still in that peak area. Race stuff, hot rod stuff or for passing.   And you would certainly not want to cruise at 5000 rpms on a stock bike, because you are beyond your peak number, and the power is falling off. Just wasted over reving and stressing the motor.

I'm not talking about cruising at 5000 rpms.

I DO hold back from reving it to its red line - as I said, it's basically unrideable there.  I don't "live" above 4000, because it's not comfortable there - I occasionally go there when I need to give it a kick, but it isn't any fun.

Not sure what you're suggesting about motor mounting - can you elaborate?  Or, is there another post where you wrote about it?  I could start a new thread so as not to hijack...


High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,075
  • Karma: 0
Reply #444 on: August 27, 2014, 01:39:27 pm
Matt -  Basically what GHG is saying is that they put these bikes together so fast and without care at the factory that sometimes the motor is slightly skewed in the frame which puts undue stress on the motor itself and that can cause the excessive vibrations.  Loosening all the motor mounts and tightening them back can sometimes relieve this stress and make for a smoother ride.

Scottie J
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #445 on: August 27, 2014, 07:01:41 pm
Matt -  Basically what GHG is saying is that they put these bikes together so fast and without care at the factory that sometimes the motor is slightly skewed in the frame which puts undue stress on the motor itself and that can cause the excessive vibrations.  Loosening all the motor mounts and tightening them back can sometimes relieve this stress and make for a smoother ride.

Scottie J


  Exactly...  And if that doesn't do it?  You may have to look deeper is all. Mount holes are lined up and etc....  Hard to get a bolt in and out etc.  Nuts spinning off their bolts, cracked frames in the area of a mount etc.


I'm not talking about cruising at 5000 rpms.

I DO hold back from reving it to its red line - as I said, it's basically unrideable there.  I don't "live" above 4000, because it's not comfortable there - I occasionally go there when I need to give it a kick, but it isn't any fun.

Not sure what you're suggesting about motor mounting - can you elaborate?  Or, is there another post where you wrote about it?  I could start a new thread so as not to hijack...


  I hear ya Matt.. My point was that ,  One can't assume that there is something wrong with the crank.. Could be ?... Maybe not ?  And not saying your are now !  ;)  There is more then one possible cause for vibration. Like there would more then one reason there may be a problem with a crank.  Simple stuff first I'm thinking....
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #446 on: August 27, 2014, 07:05:58 pm
I have always liked low bars with a forward leaning position.
Gets the weight centered much better like GHG says. Better handling and control.
And I don't think it is very comfortable to sit up and beg anyway, with all the weight squarely on my ass.
Forward lean is where it's at, IMO.
YMMV.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #447 on: August 28, 2014, 10:02:11 pm
Some pics of the Ace UCE head mods, the Ace valve gear, and also the modified stock rockers with ratio added.

There will be new pushrods required because the rocker mods included a cup on the pushrod interface, and the pushrods will need to have ball-ends on both ends now. Also pushrod length should be checked when the engine is built, and order new pushrods to correct length. Pushrod change comes with the territory when modding rockers. Not expensive. I will instruct the owner how to measure.

Intake fits with stock injector housing.
Exhaust fits with stock exhaust, or aftermarket exhaust.

This is the most bang for the least buck that we could pull off.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 10:08:33 pm by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


1 Thump

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,563
  • Karma: 0
Reply #448 on: August 28, 2014, 10:05:46 pm
I m pretty sure this one don't do the ton, but who's asking me. Here it is in all its glory...and a hand 'ported' exhaust port with the motor still mounted on the bike. yes, that's how these schmucks did it...with a hand held grinder with the engine still on the bike.
 
I mean this one: ---> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-C5-Bullet-Royal-Enfield-Custom-Cafe-Racer-/271588012795?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3f3be832fb&item=271588012795&pt=US_motorcycles

Also, I think the owner is being disingenuous. I remember watching this on the show and they never claimed it did the ton. They even tried "race gas" and pumped up the tires for minimal rolling resistance....
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 10:12:13 pm by 1 Thump »


1 Thump

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,563
  • Karma: 0
Reply #449 on: August 28, 2014, 10:07:48 pm
Some pics of the head mods, the Ace valve gear, and also the modified stock rockers with ratio added.

There will be new pushrods required because the rocker mods included a cup on the pushrod interface, and the pushrods will need to have ball-ends on both ends now. Also length should be checked when the engine is built, and order new pushrods to correct length.



Roeland ! You lucky duck !