Author Topic: RUNNING RICH....ugh!!!! (Read 12398 times)

mustangdave · **on:** January 08, 2012, 11:05:20 pm

Ok...frustration is beginning to set in...LOL $:-\$ ...Thanks to Justin for coming over and being another set of eyes and hands.

The bike is running excessively RICH...so much so that it can foul a plug in about a 5 mile test run. The carb was checked... the stock O-8 and 110 jets are good to go...no clogs...the needle clip is set on the first rich setting...the air filter is good to go...I got plenty of spark...

I have the ACE Air Can and a Goldie exhaust pipe as the ONLY mods....

Read all kinds of posts about which jets to bump the carb to....but how the heck do you lean it out? run a hotter or colder plug...

...change gas?or do I buy stock in NGK plugs and buy them by the case lot

It just needs to smooth out in the lower rpms....

t120rbullet · **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:19:08 pm

Float set too high ?
Running it with the enrichment lever down ?
CJ

Arizoni · **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:22:14 pm

If the bike is running rich, why is the needle clip set "on the first rich setting"?

I am like a blind man when it comes to your carb because I haven't looked at it but if you can lower the main needle at all you should do it.

If the needle can be lowered more than one notch, that is worth doing too.

Note that I am speaking of lowering the needle. On the carbs I do know about this was done by raising the clip on the needle.
Study your carb's design and see if lowering the needle is possible.
If it is as low as it can go, then see if it is possible to reduce the size of the orifice the needle fits into.
If this is not possible, reduce the size of the main jet that supplies fuel to the needles orifice.

mustangdave · **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:25:26 pm

Have not monkey'd with the float...and the enricher WAS a problem that was remedied...the rubber gasket was not allowing the lever to to properly close...that WAS fixed...may revisit it though...what would be a suitable spark plug thats one range hotter than the stock NGK BR8ES?

t120rbullet · **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:29:57 pm

You don't mention which pilot jet you have either. You do have one in there don't you ?
Just because you didn't monkey with the float level don't mean it's right.
NGK BR7ES is 1 range hotter. Shouldn't make any dif though.
CJ

mustangdave · **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:31:46 pm

Arizoni...the needle can be "lowered" to what I would call stock position...or even further to LEAN positions....

mustangdave · **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:33:53 pm

Not sure what number the pilot jet is but I'm sure its the STOCK jet....

cochi · **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:37:27 pm

Dave, I don't know what you mean when you stated that you have the needle set at its first rich setting, Do you mean that the needle clip is at its lowest setting on the needle.If it is, this is the richest setting. You may want to try raising the clip a notch or two. This has the effect of lowering the needle and leaning out the mixture. If you haven't tried this, it may improve things. cochi

GreenMachine · **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:42:11 pm

when u and justin checked out the carb for jetting yadda yadda...how many turns did u have to do on the air adjustment screw ( 2 to 2.5 turns out is the normal)....have u done a quick compression test for the cylinder? does the idle adjustment correctly raise/lower the the rpm'sr and hold it relatively steady? do u kickstart the bike or electric start the bike? ...i'm using NGK BR 8ES gapped about .6mm...your points if u have them should be adjusted .35 - .40 mm at tdc...obviously you should be able to put a plug in and run all year...i'm gonna go out on a limb and say most of the riders here do and change out a plug once a year, seasonally or for the hell of it......keep us inform on your progress as a wet damped out plug isn't going to get ya far..

mustangdave · **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:46:51 pm

Quote from: cochi on January 08, 2012, 11:37:27 pm

Dave, I don't know what you mean when you stated that you have the needle set at its first rich setting, Do you mean that the needle clip is at its lowest setting on the needle.If it is, this is the richest setting. You may want to try raising the clip a notch or two. This has the effect of lowering the needle and leaning out the mixture. If you haven't tried this, it may improve things. cochi

the clip is on the second lowest RICH setting

GreenMachine · **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2012, 11:57:29 pm

as was stated, u remedy the enrichment lever problem, did u put a new rubber cap on ? what concerns me is a wet oily plug thus the question re. compression check of the cylinder...

t120rbullet · **Reply #11 on:** January 09, 2012, 12:01:03 am

If that carb is running rich enough that your fouling out plugs something is not put together right. Almost all the problems with the carb are running lean in 1 or more spots.

Plus there is a terminology gap here. When you hold the needle in front of you with the notches at the top. Clip at the bottom of the notches is rich and top of the notches is lean.
The carb comes with the clip 1 notch off the bottom. If you got the clip near the bottom of the needle, a 110 main and a 25 pilot that carb is running lean if it is put together correctly.

Here's a link to the Mikuni VM manual,

http://www.mikuni.com/pdf/vmmanual.pdf

Close enough to the Micarb to be useful.
CJ

GreenMachine · **Reply #12 on:** January 09, 2012, 12:19:22 am

t120bullet makes a good point and excellent expanation on needle position....i lost track of this but was this something that reared its ugly head suddenly or did it progress over time...

ace.cafe · **Reply #13 on:** January 09, 2012, 12:52:43 am

I can guarantee you that your 110 main jet is WAY too lean, and your O-8 needle jet is also too lean.
So, I think you have a too high float level which is running fuel directly into your engine.

If you have the stock main jet and needle jet, you probably have the stock pilot jet too
Somebody that knows what they are doing needs to get their hands on that carb.

Hoosier Bullet · **Reply #14 on:** January 09, 2012, 01:26:47 am

Just to verify some of the above.

25 pilot jet
air bleed screw out ~ 1.5 turns
O-8 Needle Jet
Needle Height raised one clip position (clip in 2nd slot from bottom)
110 main jet

It starts fairly easily, without the choke although it was in the lower to mid 50s Fahrenheit here today. It responds well to adjustment of the idle speed.

The plug fouled on a five mile ride. Not surpisingly black smoke from the exhaust was easily apparent at idle.

After reading Ace's diagnosis, I suspect float height has been altered (raised) in an attempt to compensate for the weak (lean) jets that are in place at the same time as the free flow exhaust and air filter. Maybe as a way to get around having to actually change the jets to something richer!? We never saw gas pouring out of the float bowl, although it may be close to doing so.

I think checking the float height and adjusting as necessary to ~15-17 mm, in conjunction with some upsizing of the jets 27.5/ P0/ 125 will get it to where it should be.

A compression and leakdown test is also on order.

mustangdave · **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2012, 01:59:52 am

Thanks for jumping in Justin....so whats the next move? tear down the carb...adjust floatbowl and re jet...LOL

mustangdave · **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:05:30 am

Quote from: ace.cafe on January 09, 2012, 12:52:43 am

I can guarantee you that your 110 main jet is WAY too lean, and your O-8 needle jet is also too lean.
So, I think you have a too high float level which is running fuel directly into your engine.

If you have the stock main jet and needle jet, you probably have the stock pilot jet too
Somebody that knows what they are doing needs to get their hands on that carb.

This started happening all of a sudden like...on a ride out last week...

500KsGerry · **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:10:43 am

Check the float needle and seat. Is it all metal or is there some rubber? debris?
good luck, Gerry

GreenMachine · **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:11:22 am

that explain alot..why someone would play with the float position as a mean to increase fuel vice just changing the jets is a bit bizzare but at least hoosier bullet has put things in order...seems that getting rid of the excessive black smoke at startup/idle is the key to putting an end to this problem..I wonder if the needle valve assembly that the floats activate is dirty ...that would be a easy cheap fix..if u know that the float assembly has been altered, it woud be a good idea to check that out as well ....

Hoosier Bullet · **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:11:53 am

It is weird it happened all of a sudden, maybe the compression test will give some clues about that!? It might clue us in if the lash adjustment tightened up to too tight, for example.

As for the carb, my hands smell like gas right now and on a regular basis, so no big deal. However my girlfriend told me I was too smelly to sit next to her a little while ago. This said to the guy who gets away with eating double fire alarm chili and the accompanying results, also on a regular basis................

GreenMachine · **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:16:52 am

500ksgerry beat me to it..haaaaaaaa i got the parts book open with the exploded view of the carb on my lap..jeeze must be bored tonight...hey how about those broncos....been a long time for those guys......if u stay with this, it will get fixed one way or another...forget putting more pliugs in it..time to get it straight for spring time..if anthing good time of the year for this to happen anyway....cheers

Hoosier Bullet · **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:17:32 am

Quote from: GreenMachine on January 09, 2012, 02:11:22 am

that explain alot..why someone would play with the float position as a mean to increase fuel vice just changing the jets is a bit bizzare but at least hoosier bullet has put things in order...seems that getting rid of the excessive black smoke at startup/idle is the key to putting an end to this problem..I wonder if the needle valve assembly that the floats activate is dirty ...that would be a easy cheap fix..if u know that the float assembly has been altered, it woud be a good idea to check that out as well ....

Possible the seat, is easy enough to have a look at but really the carb seemed about as clean inside as what I hope for..............

As for the guess about the float height adjustment, I must admit there is a bit of a psychological evaluation on that being made by me, you would just have to know the (potentially) responsible party I have in my mind who 'mastered' that bodge..............

mustangdave · **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:20:40 am

there are possibly 2 culprits....and I smell of gas too...but I just had mexican at Camino Real

mustangdave · **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:28:08 am

some one asked if the bike will kick over...it did much easier before all this craziness...and it will still but it needs to be warmed up...it will start up nicely with the electric start as well...would prefer not to use the E Start though...the points were swapped out for electronics prior to my ownership of the little beasty.

GreenMachine · **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:37:37 am

well as ace has stated. if the culprit is too much gas getting by (i don't mean what u had for dinner either), then it should be a fairly easy fix....the drop down list of the current carb configuration doesn't fall in line with a picture of awet sooty black plug but rather a white lean plug.especially if u have a aftermarket uffler and ace can/filter..if it isn't carb related, then i would proceed with a compression test which might not be bad idea anyway...

mustangdave · **Reply #25 on:** January 09, 2012, 02:45:09 am

ok...a compression test...worst case an engine rebuild?...there I go thinking worst case scenario...aw geez...first things first

baird4444 · **Reply #26 on:** January 09, 2012, 03:02:59 am

Quote from: mustangdave on January 08, 2012, 11:33:53 pm

Not sure what number the pilot jet is but I'm sure its the STOCK jet....

you will never be sure of the problem so long as you
assume things... check to see what you've got...
if you are rich, lower the needle.

mustangdave · **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2012, 03:08:19 am

Quote from: baird4444 on January 09, 2012, 03:02:59 am

you will never be sure of the problem so long as you
assume things... check to see what you've got...
if you are rich, lower the needle.

See Hoosier Bullets reply #14....he remembered all the numbers...I will start with the easy obvious and progress on...

GreenMachine · **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2012, 03:09:10 am

thought he said he had a 25 pilot in there...but yes a confirmation and sanity check would be in order before i tore the engine down..

mustangdave · **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2012, 03:20:10 am

yes a 25 pilot....

500KsGerry · **Reply #30 on:** January 09, 2012, 05:53:21 am

Just pull the carb off, connect to fuel line, open petcock, open throttle and see what flows out.
Flow? drips etc.. ----> tap lightly on the bowl. drip/flow stops/slows problem in the float area.-----> open bowl, remove float noting height, remove seat and blow clean as a matter of course just because, reassemble and test for flow.
If solved or slowed reset/check float height. Still Flowing or dripping then order a new float seat and needle especially if there is a rubber tip on it most probably susceptible to ethanol.
No point in doing a comp test if that much fuel suddenly started dumping, the rings are dry. If you do run a comp test the use some oil. Don't think I'd worry about that much till i got the carb sorted and motor running. Even then just for curiosity. Good luck, Gerry

mustangdave · **Reply #31 on:** January 09, 2012, 11:57:08 am

Right now...6AM on a monday morning...I'm of a mind to get the carb sorted out...I do not think there is an issue with compression.

ace.cafe · **Reply #32 on:** January 09, 2012, 06:01:29 pm

Quote from: mustangdave on January 09, 2012, 11:57:08 am

Right now...6AM on a monday morning...I'm of a mind to get the carb sorted out...I do not think there is an issue with compression.

My best advice.
Don't flail around in the dark.

Find somebody who actually knows how to properly work on that carb, and let him set it up correctly.
Notice that I said somebody who "KNOWS" how to work on that carb.
NOT somebody who "thinks they know" how to work on that carb.
There are few of the former, and tons of the latter.

The Garbone · **Reply #33 on:** January 09, 2012, 06:56:32 pm

LOL,,,, I am the Latter, so I will just sit over here in the corner and watch...

mustangdave · **Reply #34 on:** January 09, 2012, 08:40:15 pm

Quote from: ace.cafe on January 09, 2012, 06:01:29 pm

My best advice.
Don't flail around in the dark.

Find somebody who actually knows how to properly work on that carb, and let him set it up correctly.
Notice that I said somebody who "KNOWS" how to work on that carb.
NOT somebody who "thinks they know" how to work on that carb.
There are few of the former, and tons of the latter.

I understand...

GreenMachine · **Reply #35 on:** January 09, 2012, 08:43:31 pm

well when ace speaks it behooves one to listen..Can't fault anyone for giving it a try,,,,

mustangdave · **Reply #36 on:** January 09, 2012, 09:11:40 pm

so...ACE...should I take the short drive to Cookville with carb in hand and and a bunch of jets?...

ace.cafe · **Reply #37 on:** January 09, 2012, 09:54:18 pm

Quote from: mustangdave on January 09, 2012, 09:11:40 pm

so...ACE...should I take the short drive to Cookville with carb in hand and and a bunch of jets?...

Um, do you mean Crossville, where Mondello's is?

Here's the first thing you need to do.
Get the right jets.
27.5 pilot
P0 or P2 needle jet
127.5 pilot jet

Then contact me, and I'll get your bike running.

Right now I'm sick, so maybe next week or something, after you get the parts.

mustangdave · **Reply #38 on:** January 09, 2012, 10:25:47 pm

Quote from: ace.cafe on January 09, 2012, 09:54:18 pm

Um, do you mean Crossville, where Mondello's is?

Here's the first thing you need to do.
Get the right jets.
27.5 pilot
P0 or P2 needle jet
127.5 pilot jet

Then contact me, and I'll get your bike running.

Right now I'm sick, so maybe next week or something, after you get the parts.

Yes...LOL... I meant Crossville...Let me see what I can scare up as far as parts go...thanks...hope its nothing serious, get better

mustangdave · **Reply #39 on:** January 09, 2012, 10:41:27 pm

OK...I have a P-0 and a P-2 needle jet....a 127.5 pilot jet...but no 27.5 pilot...have a 25 pilot...ok NField Gear here I come...LOL

mustangdave · **Reply #40 on:** January 10, 2012, 01:55:45 am

Quote from: mustangdave on January 09, 2012, 10:41:27 pm

OK...I have a P-0 and a P-2 needle jet....a 127.5 pilot jet...but no 27.5 pilot...have a 25 pilot...ok NField Gear here I come...LOL

and NField Gear is out of stock on the 27.5 pilot...DRAT and double Drat

GreenMachine · **Reply #41 on:** January 10, 2012, 02:10:11 am

i'm running a 27.5..in your case a 25 vs the 27.5 isn't going to be the big problem..

ace.cafe · **Reply #42 on:** January 10, 2012, 02:19:22 am

Quote from: mustangdave on January 10, 2012, 01:55:45 am

and NField Gear is out of stock on the 27.5 pilot...DRAT and double Drat

You can get it from the local Honda shop or Yamaha shop for like 2 bucks.
Just bring the one you have down there to compare type, and ask for the same jet type in a 27.5.

It's one of the standard Mikuni type pilot jets. There are only 2 types, and they need to see what you have to match it.

t120rbullet · **Reply #43 on:** January 10, 2012, 02:22:46 am

Quote from: mustangdave on January 10, 2012, 01:55:45 am

and NField Gear is out of stock on the 27.5 pilot...DRAT and double Drat

http://www.jetsrus.com/a_jets_by_carburetor_type/jets_mikuni_VM22-210_pilot.htm#

mustangdave · **Reply #44 on:** January 10, 2012, 12:07:28 pm

Looks like I'll be going to the Honda shop today...

barenekd · **Reply #45 on:** January 10, 2012, 06:57:00 pm

Since it's suddenly running rich in all modes, did you check your float for sinking? If it's a brass float, shake it and see if it's got gas in it. If it's foam, squeeze it lightly and see if gas comes out. Also check the needle and seat for leaking.
Bare

ace.cafe · **Reply #46 on:** January 10, 2012, 07:21:53 pm

Quote from: barenekd on January 10, 2012, 06:57:00 pm

Since it's suddenly running rich in all modes, did you check your float for sinking? If it's a brass float, shake it and see if it's got gas in it. If it's foam, squeeze it lightly and see if gas comes out. Also check the needle and seat for leaking.
Bare

All the symptoms point to that.
He's got huge rich indications, and all his jets are lean, and he says he's not running with the enrichener on.

So, it looks like something wtih the float to me.
But, he needs to get it jetted right, regardless..

barenekd · **Reply #47 on:** January 10, 2012, 08:42:11 pm

Can;t jet it right if the floats are off. And it was running fine apparently before the sudden richness.
Bare

mustangdave · **Reply #48 on:** January 10, 2012, 08:42:32 pm

Ok...the snipe hunt is over...I have a 27.5 pilot jet coming the the local HONDA shop on Thursday...and ACE....forgive my ignorance...but IF I'm just replacing jets and such...and checking float height...what else is there to "tuning the carb"...seems rather straight forward to me...just unboggle whats been done pretty much. Educate me a little....

baird4444 · **Reply #49 on:** January 12, 2012, 01:51:47 pm

ok, I'm really confused.
we are werking on a rich condition...
but we are UP JETTING as part of the fix....
I am very curious how this is going to end- Mike

GreenMachine · **Reply #50 on:** January 12, 2012, 02:21:32 pm

nah it was the original thought but it it is now considered a strong probability of a float problem which iis the cause of the excessive rich problem that mustangdave is experencing...The jetting which has been accepted to be 27.5 pilot, 127.5 main and the needle one notch up from the bottom is within the norm for the oem carb...i think he gonna ship it to ace and he gonna take a look at and see what he can do..Ace is the lead tech on this trouble ticket

..

mustangdave · **Reply #51 on:** January 12, 2012, 05:22:26 pm

off to the Honda Shop to purchase that 27.5 pilot jet....and just to clarifiy(maybe)...the carb was set up stock with a 110...and 25...the needle one notch up from the bottom...and according to most...it is WAAAY to lean...so I'm thinking the float bowl may be the culprit...the new jetting is to accomidate (properly)...the low restriction ACE air canister...and the GOLD STAR flow thru exhaust...it is my impression that the previous owner(s) didn't do the proper jetting...fun fun...

ace.cafe · **Reply #52 on:** January 12, 2012, 06:52:54 pm

Okay, take the whole carb apart on the bench and don't lose any parts.
Pay attention to how it came apart. Take photos if you have to , for reference.
Take off the float bowl from the bottom, and look at the float. See if somebody has bent the tab that sets the float height, which they probably did.
I can't remember exactly how many mm the float is supposed to be off the carb body, but I just hold it upside down and set it where it looks level with the carb body.
If somebody knows the float height in mm, feel free to chime in.

Then take the float axle out and remove the float. Hopefully the float is not broken or filled with fuel.
Then take a small straight screwdriver and take out the pilot jet, and a larger straight screwdriver to take out the main jet.
Then take a small wood dowel rod and drive the needle jet up out thru the middle of the carb. It comes out the top, and goes back in from the top. The main jet holds it in, and it has a small pin that keys it straight. You have to pay attention to those things.

Then, spray the hell out of all the passages and everything with some spray carb cleaner, and keep your eyes shielded so the sprayback doesn't get in your eyes.

Clean out the needle and seat valve with the carb cleaner, and look at the parts t ee if they are pitted or otherwise leaking. Usually if they are leaking, it's just some trapped dirt.

Then, put it all back together with the new jets.
Set the air bleed screw to 1.5 turns out from fully seated.

Take the needle out of the slide, and re-set the needle e-clip to the richest position.

Put it all back together and put it on the bike.
Let me know when you get to this position.
If you run into some jams with assembly or disassembly, the guys here can help you.
I'll check in from time to time.

mustangdave · **Reply #53 on:** January 12, 2012, 09:40:38 pm

Thank you ACE...I'll get back with you on the progress....and question should I have any

Arizoni · **Reply #54 on:** January 13, 2012, 12:28:35 am

When you remove the float valve don't forget to give the gasket(s) a good looking at.

I've seen these little fiber ring seals crack before and if they do they will allow the fuel to pour continuously into the float chamber even though the valve is closed.

Blltrdr · **Reply #55 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:43:41 am

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/pictures/content2/micarb_notes_-_a4.pdf

mustangdave · **Reply #56 on:** January 13, 2012, 03:24:24 am

that reference material will come in handy

barenekd · **Reply #57 on:** January 13, 2012, 07:46:45 pm

And don't forget to see if that float has gas in it! Also check the needle and seat for leakage.
Bare

mustangdave · **Reply #58 on:** January 13, 2012, 09:33:16 pm

Quote from: barenekd on January 13, 2012, 07:46:45 pm

And don't forget to see if that float has gas in it! Also check the needle and seat for leakage.
Bare

Definately...

mustangdave · **Reply #59 on:** January 15, 2012, 06:45:13 pm

After lunch here...the re-jetting will commence...I will take the carb off and disassemble and spray the poop out of it with carb cleaner

mustangdave · **Reply #60 on:** January 16, 2012, 12:36:01 am

Well....its done...and it LIVES....and now I'm hungry. Thanks again to Justin for lending a hand and ear...we basically swapped carbs and then re-jetted. Justin brought his old Mikuni over...we put stock jets in it...took it out for a run...all systems were good...but it was LEAN...so we then did the jet swap...did another quick run...as of now..its all good...I will be keeping an eye on the spark plug...in case it starts to act up...but I think the issue is licked...Justin chime in with your thoughts

Hoosier Bullet · **Reply #61 on:** January 16, 2012, 01:52:00 am

Well it surely runs better now and good at that.

Were it mine one last move would be to go up from the P0 needle jet to the P2. Previous experience suggest it will then be RICH. If that is the case I would go back to the PO, but adjust the E-clip to two positions richer than we have it (put it in bottom slot).

If it doesn't act rich then, leave it. If it is a bit rich on plug reading, move the e-clip up one slot again. If you move it back towards the middle slot, go to the 127.5 or 130 main jet to add a little bit of extra fuel onto the needle jet circuits via the main jet. Then it will be purrfect.

Did you check if the the float from your carb is perforated? Curious to know about that.

mustangdave · **Reply #62 on:** January 16, 2012, 02:02:44 am

No bubbles in the water...float checked out...I'm calling it GREMLINS...but will check the plug over the course of the next few ride. Right now I'm a happy camper

GreenMachine · **Reply #63 on:** January 16, 2012, 02:36:17 am

to reitterate what u have is a swapped out carb with that rejetted ?

mustangdave · **Reply #64 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:25:54 am

In a nut shell...yep...the swap was done to "see" if the bike would run the same as it did with my carb set up....the only difference being that the "e" clip was set in the middle slot...

I think we can call this thread DONE...LOL

Chuck D · **Reply #65 on:** January 17, 2012, 05:04:25 am

Praise god.

mustangdave · **Reply #66 on:** January 17, 2012, 12:23:35 pm

YES INDEED....

bob bezin · **Reply #67 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:11:16 pm