Author Topic: Missed shifts? The SOLUTION! (Read 11450 times)

olhogrider · **on:** August 19, 2011, 09:35:04 pm

As most of you know, my engine was replaced about 1200 miles ago. When I rode with the new engine there were some missed shifts. I attributed them to the newness of the trans as my original one did it a few times too when it was new. It seems to be doing it more than ever. Only in 3rd and 4th. The others are perfect. It seemed to get worse when I switched to full synth oil so yesterday I changed back to semi-synth. I have tried adjusting the clutch cable for more and less slack. Nothing. Any ideas?

I do know how to shift gears. I have been doing it for over 40 years. I tried the pre-load the shifter technique discussed here. I even tried shifting without the clutch with similar results.

Thanks

Ducati Scotty · **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:17:01 pm

Have you adjusted the shifter lever itself? If it's too high it can often make for missed upshifts. And are you always riding with the same footwear? If you switch around it can make a difference.

Scott

jartist · **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:05:22 am

I'm convinced my transmission is rigged to some chi energy thing in the universe. Some days I never get a missed shift and other days I'm a mess on the shifter. Since you didn't have that problem on the old engine its probably not your technique but here goes anyway: I found best results when I shift to leave my foot in the up when shifting up when I let the clutch out and same for down shifting- leave the shifter down with pressure on the lever and release the clutch, then let go of the shifter when the clutch is all the way out. I got that from one of the other posts and it works well for me after I got used to how weird it felt. Another thing to add is that my transmission shifts way better than when it was new but didn't really break in until I had 2000 miles on it and now that I think of it I have only had two missed shifts in the last 500 miles.

Ducati Scotty · **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:55:14 am

Some days mine is smooth as silk and other days I seem to get some half shifts in the upper gears and it needs a little more persuasion. Nothing a strong shift won't fix for me. I chaulk it up to the bike's 'character'.

Scott

TWinOKC · **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2011, 02:22:25 am

I miss a shift sometimes, its usually 3rd or 4th gear, I just figured its probably me being a little lazy on the shift.

I can't decide if you have problems because you just ride the shit out of your bike or you are just a little unlucky. Maybe a little of both.

Best of luck to you olhogrider

Terry

olhogrider · **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2011, 05:44:43 am

Thanks. Here's an even weirder part. Sometimes when it misses a downshift and gets a false neutral, I upshift into the lower gear! Yep, I'm trying to go back to the gear I just left and it shifts the other way. It makes no difference if I am rough or gentle. The only thing that makes upshifts more reliable is if i really wind it out in the lower gear first. I'll give it a few more miles before I give up.

I really don't think footwear is going to make a difference in only two gears and in both upshifts and downshifts, but in any case I usually wear the same boots.

BRADEY · **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2011, 01:09:22 pm

This is a transmission problem and needs to be looked at and corrected. No two ways about it.

barenekd · **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2011, 04:20:10 pm

Quote

Here's an even weirder part. Sometimes when it misses a downshift and gets a false neutral, I upshift into the lower gear! Yep, I'm trying to go back to the gear I just left and it shifts the other way.

What has happened is that you have actually passed the gear you wanted and dropped into the false neutral between the lower two gears. If you were shifting down to third from fourth, you actually overshot third into the gap between second and third, so when you shifted you went back to third.
Looking at the "Service Manual," there are grooves that are for a stop plunger that would keep the cam plate from rotating past the gear detents, but I can't see any plunger in there. Can't say I'm going to tear my engine down to check it out, but the design without it looks a bit flaky.
It looks like the little hook thingy that shifts the gears is supposed to hold it in gear, too. If that spring gets a bit weak, it could cause these shifting difficulties.
It looks like you need to ease up on how hard you are shifting, but I, too, catch one in the middle occasionally. It's gotten better as the miles go on, but maybe it's just we who are getting broken in!
Bare

Ducati Scotty · **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2011, 04:39:25 pm

Most people I know with systemic shifting issues like this, it's either a spring that needs to be replaced or a minor adjustment. I agree, get to the shop and ask them to take a look.

Scott

street · **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2011, 09:31:48 pm

I have a new G5 with 1600km.
Did 3 oil changes before 1200km and had been using Castrol 4T 20w50 (dino oil).

Switched to Motul 5100 15W50 at 1200km and now missed shifts galore.
Sounds very much like your missed shifts including the shifting up and get a lower gear after getting neutral from 5th.

Been riding over 20 years.
Never missed a single shift on the G5 before switching to the semi-synth Motul.

Might be my imagination but feels like the bike ran better, in general, with the Castrol 4T.

-----------
Just did 200km and although rough and missed shifts for about the first 30km, then like a switch went on and the bike was running better than ever.
Go figure...........must have heard me talking about her.

singhg5 · **Reply #10 on:** September 19, 2011, 04:05:49 am

Quote from: street on September 18, 2011, 09:31:48 pm

Switched to Motul 5100 15W50 at 1200km and now missed shifts galore.

Might be my imagination but feels like the bike ran better, in general, with the Castrol 4T.
-----------
Just did 200km and although rough and missed shifts for about the first 30km, then like a switch went on and the bike was running better than ever.
Go figure...........must have heard me talking about her.

@Street:

Welcome to the Forum.

Motul 15W-50 is pretty good oil and I use that in my G5 that has over 17,000 miles on it and no problem with clutch / gear shift misses.

When you switch to a different oil, sometimes clutch needs very slight readjustment. Even half-a-turn of the adjusting nut can make a difference. Also as the bike puts on more miles (you wrote km - so that means you are not in USA), these gears shift better with fewer and fewer misses.

street · **Reply #11 on:** September 19, 2011, 04:48:35 am

Quote from: singhg5 on September 19, 2011, 04:05:49 am

@Street:

Welcome to the Forum.

Motul 15W-50 is pretty good oil and I use that in my G5 that has over 17,000 miles on it and no problem with clutch / gear shift misses.

When you switch to a different oil, sometimes clutch needs very slight readjustment. Even half-a-turn of the adjusting nut can make a difference. Also as the bike puts on more miles (you wrote km - so that means you are not in USA), these gears shift better with fewer and fewer misses.

Hi and thanks Singhg5.
After writing my post I went for a ride and did about 200km (120miles).
I had to add a comment because the bike is now running better than ever and shifting is smoother than ever.
It was really as I mentioned, almost like a switch was flipped.

FYI, I went with the Motul because it's very close to the spec in the manual and saw in another post that you also used it.
I've also enjoyed your various posts, tutorials and videos.
They were very helpful and part of my decision making process to buy the bike.
Thanks for taking the time to make them.

olhogrider · **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2011, 02:14:55 am

Following one poster's advice from a Brit forum, I took a look at the clutch. The rod has no adjustment, it just spins on a bearing. I guess the procedure was for pre-UCE bikes. Anyway I am going to bring the cable freeplay down to zero. If that doesn't do it I will see what the Harley dealer will give me in trade.

prof_stack · **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2011, 04:03:05 am

Quote from: olhogrider on September 23, 2011, 02:14:55 am

Following one poster's advice from a Brit forum, I took a look at the clutch. The rod has no adjustment, it just spins on a bearing. I guess the procedure was for pre-UCE bikes. Anyway I am going to bring the cable freeplay down to zero. If that doesn't do it I will see what the Harley dealer will give me in trade.

Oh my, sounds like its time for a change! When I bought the Guzzi Breva the shop wouldn't touch the Enfield (Royal Cornfield he called it). Three weeks on Craigslist got one nibble. So I have 2 bikes and that's fine for me for now. You know you're better off unloading the bike for $3.5 to $4k than trading it in. What HD model are you looking at?

But I hope you don't have to resort to selling the RE.

1 Thump · **Reply #14 on:** September 23, 2011, 02:55:43 pm

Quote from: olhogrider on September 23, 2011, 02:14:55 am

Following one poster's advice from a Brit forum, I took a look at the clutch. The rod has no adjustment, it just spins on a bearing. I guess the procedure was for pre-UCE bikes. Anyway I am going to bring the cable freeplay down to zero. If that doesn't do it I will see what the Harley dealer will give me in trade.

If it is any comfort yours shifts much better than mine which is a 'technically correct' right side shift bike.

olhogrider · **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2011, 06:04:46 pm

When you rode it, it was still behaving normally. There are times that it finds a false neutral and requires several up and down shifts to find any forward propulsion. I am going out for a ride. I'll report back.

jartist · **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2011, 07:00:38 pm

Mine did that until it had about 2500 miles. Extremely frustrating when down shifting going into corners because it totally blew the setup for the corner. I changed the way I shifted a bit but I don't think it was technique, im more convinced the grabbyness just settled in finally. It's like the ratchet mechanism gets our of synch. Very perplexing!

Ducati Scotty · **Reply #17 on:** September 23, 2011, 07:30:41 pm

Quote from: olhogrider on September 23, 2011, 06:04:46 pm

When you rode it, it was still behaving normally. There are times that it finds a false neutral and requires several up and down shifts to find any forward propulsion. I am going out for a ride. I'll report back.

Mine will sometimes find one between 3rd and 4th or 4th and fifth. A little technique to get it back on track if it falls into a false neutral or doesn't want to go into gear is to let the clutch out a little. It doesn't have to be all the way, just enough to engage things and get them spinning a little. I find it very easy to do and it usually gets everything lined up for a successful shift on the next try.

Scott

singhg5 · **Reply #18 on:** September 23, 2011, 07:44:34 pm

Quote from: Ducati Scotty on September 23, 2011, 07:30:41 pm

A little technique to get it back on track if it falls into a false neutral or doesn't want to go into gear is to let the clutch out a little. It doesn't have to be all the way, just enough to engage things and get them spinning a little. it usually gets everything lined up for a successful shift on the next try.

This technique has also worked for me.

olhogrider · **Reply #19 on:** September 24, 2011, 05:23:15 am

The British forum told of a non-UCE procedure to adjust the clutch rod. After opening it up I found that the UCE has NO adjustments! I didn't want to go beyond the recommended freeplay amount. Once I reduced the play to nothing. it shifts like new. 2 misses in 200 miles. I suppose if the rod were longer or the arm that the cable fits into were a different shape there could be more freeplay but a functioning transmission is more important to me than some arbitrary setting.

prof_stack · **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2011, 06:01:31 am

Quote from: olhogrider on September 24, 2011, 05:23:15 am

The British forum told of a non-UCE procedure to adjust the clutch rod. After opening it up I found that the UCE has NO adjustments! I didn't want to go beyond the recommended freeplay amount. Once I reduced the play to nothing. it shifts like new. 2 misses in 200 miles. I suppose if the rod were longer or the arm that the cable fits into were a different shape there could be more freeplay but a functioning transmission is more important to me than some arbitrary setting.

Good deal. Now forget about that Harley nonsense!

Maturin · **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2011, 01:17:03 pm

Marvellous! Another detail that could cause massive problems, but is actually an easy fix - if you know how

So you just won 10 grand: the ones you don´t have to spend on a Harley!

olhogrider · **Reply #22 on:** September 24, 2011, 08:06:55 pm

Quote from: Maturin on September 24, 2011, 01:17:03 pm

Marvellous! Another detail that could cause massive problems, but is actually an easy fix - if you know how
So you just won 10 grand: the ones you don´t have to spend on a Harley!

True! Hard to pass up a $3000 discount but a lot easier now. Also while I was at Il Motorino, the mechanic discovered that the right foot peg was stripped. It is not going anywhere with the exhaust pipe blocking it. They will order parts.

drbvac · **Reply #23 on:** September 25, 2011, 03:52:35 pm

My UCE 2010 has a clutch adjustment on the end of the cable to the transmission - are you saying yours doenst ? And are you also saying that you elimiminated missed shifts by eliminating the 2-3 mm free play in the cable?

Just trying to understand the fix

olhogrider · **Reply #24 on:** September 26, 2011, 05:30:58 am

The adjustment that the pre-unit bikes have is on the pushrod inside the clutch. UCE bikes don't have this. It is simply a steel rod with a collar that rides on a ball bearing. All we have for adjustment is the cable freeplay. By adjusting the cable down to zero, I was able to eliminate 99% of my shifting woes. Anyone else having this problem should try this before giving up.

gashousegorilla · **Reply #25 on:** September 27, 2011, 03:07:03 am

Cable stretched ? Maybe made too long? It IS weird not to see an adjustment at the clutch. Did they give you a spare with the bike? See if they match up.

olhogrider · **Reply #26 on:** September 27, 2011, 12:34:54 pm

It has the cable adjuster. It adjusts just fine. There is no internal clutch adjustment. The clutch lever has to be at zero lash for the clutch and gearbox to work properly.

AgentX · **Reply #27 on:** September 27, 2011, 02:24:38 pm

Hmmm. My clutch (350 UCE) was at zero free play, because I'm a bicycle mechanic at heart and I hate slack in cables.

I was having 2 problems- one, the friction zone was way out at the very beginning of the lever travel (uncomfortably so) and it would sometimes stall out when the engine was cold and you dropped it into first, prior to letting the clutch out again.

Going to 2mm or so free play seems to have fixed both issues. The gearbox remains relatively precise but still quirky compared to a modern Japanese bike, and it will occasionally drop into a false neutral under acceleration.

Ducati Scotty · **Reply #28 on:** September 27, 2011, 03:21:09 pm

Quote from: AgentX on September 27, 2011, 02:24:38 pm

...it would sometimes stall out when the engine was cold and you dropped it into first, prior to letting the clutch out again.

After you get the bike started, fan the clutch a few times. The clutch plates tend to stick after they sit for a while and this frees them up. That drag is probably what was stalling your engine. Though you've already solved the stalling problem this should make for less of a harsh engagement the first time you put it in gear.

Scott

jartist · **Reply #29 on:** September 27, 2011, 07:27:30 pm

I'm glad you were able to find a solution that works. I wonder if there is a way to make the shifting work by keeping a little tension on the clutch when shifting and retain the clutch lever play. I know there's no throw out bearing but I'd be afraid clutch rod wear or other parts wearing out with constant engagement without the play.

barenekd · **Reply #30 on:** September 27, 2011, 07:39:57 pm

Quote

I'm glad you were able to find a solution that works. I wonder if there is a way to make the shifting work by keeping a little tension on the clutch when shifting and retain the clutch lever play. I know there's no throw out bearing but I'd be afraid clutch rod wear or other parts wearing out with constant engagement without the play.

You'd be better off just shifting without the clutch. Laving a bit of tension on it will invite the wear you mentioned, but also overheating the clutch plates causing warpage and wear.
Up shifting without the clutch is pretty easy, just roll off the throttle as you pull up the shift lever. it's usually pretty smooth. Downshifting, leave the throttle where it is and push the lever down. It works, but not quite as smoothly as upshifts. If you have broken yor throttle cable, try to find a way home with the least amount of stops. If you have to stop, shift into neutral before you get to the light. Push off with your feet and get rolling, then push the lever into first gear.
Bare

TWinOKC · **Reply #31 on:** September 27, 2011, 08:55:52 pm

Quote from: barenekd on September 27, 2011, 07:39:57 pm

Up shifting without the clutch is pretty easy, just roll off the throttle as you pull up the shift lever. it's usually pretty smooth. Downshifting, leave the throttle where it is and push the lever down. It works, but not quite as smoothly as upshifts. If you have broken yor throttle cable, try to find a way home with the least amount of stops. If you have to stop, shift into neutral before you get to the light. Push off with your feet and get rolling, then push the lever into first gear.
Bare

A good tip Bare.

If you're out in the middle of nowhere and the clutch cable breaks. You can make it home if you are careful and lucky.

olhogrider · **Reply #32 on:** September 27, 2011, 09:26:20 pm

Bare, with its antique design and marginal metallurgy, I would only shift without the clutch if the cable broke. In one of my earlier posts I described how I had tried it. I have done it on lots of modern bikes but this RE will have none of it. I would rather wear out, overheat or otherwise misuse the bike rather than sail off the cliff while I fumble for a gear... ANY gear!

AgentX, the friction zone is now near the outer limit of the lever throw but I can live with that.

Jartist, any word on when your bike will be back on the road?

Ducati Scotty · **Reply #33 on:** September 27, 2011, 09:49:58 pm

Quote from: olhogrider on September 27, 2011, 09:26:20 pm

In one of my earlier posts I described how I had tried it. I have done it on lots of modern bikes but this RE will have none of it.

Same here. I could shift all my other bikes pretty smoothly without the clutch but the RE doesn't seem to want to play nicely.

Scott

jartist · **Reply #34 on:** September 27, 2011, 10:26:37 pm

Quote from: olhogrider on September 27, 2011, 09:26:20 pm

Jartist, any word on when your bike will be back on the road?

Should be any minute now, really. Just waiting for the delivery of the side cover gasket. I'm going to have them throw in a 18t sprocket while the side is off but it shouldn't take more than an hour to button things up once the parts are in.

barenekd · **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2011, 10:44:23 pm

Quote

Same here. I could shift all my other bikes pretty smoothly without the clutch but the RE doesn't seem to want to play nicely.

I've shifted mine some just to see how it was. I didn't want to put out any bum info. Mine worked fine. Due to the metallurgy and such, I wouldn't make a full time habit of it, but then mine shifts fine in the first place. I would definitely ride it home in the event of clutch expiration, though.
Bare

prof_stack · **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2011, 11:58:02 pm

I tried no-clutch upshifting and the C5 wasn't nearly as smooth as the Guzzi. Downshifting is definitely a clutch thing for me.

Anthonyof Erin · **Reply #37 on:** October 05, 2011, 12:51:22 pm

Hey All,Have not been back here in a while has been a busy summer almost to busy for ridin but guess what I have both issues with the bike ie shifting and solenoid. The shifting is more like it jumps out of 4th and I felt the first time it happened that since that was my last up shift that it dropped down but it actually drops between 4th and 5th. It is happening more often now. Can be very intimadating when traffic is right up yer butt and you quickly recover to get back your safety zone. Starter is starting to act up in that lately on each drive I had the starter spin but not engage. Maybe I'm not driving it enough.
Set to go into the dealer next week. When I mentioned these issues his comment was that had only been one report in the US so far.
Take Care

olhogrider · **Reply #38 on:** October 05, 2011, 05:05:07 pm

The cable adjustment is easy to do. Just snug it up until there is NO freeplay then take it for a ride. This worked for me. If it doesn't you can always put it back.

TCP · **Reply #39 on:** October 05, 2011, 10:01:04 pm

Let's face it. We all blow a shift now and again. Even on my Triumph I will occasionally miss one (depending on my level of engagement).

Anthonyof Erin · **Reply #40 on:** October 06, 2011, 12:59:01 am

Ok so I adjusted the clutch free play to Less than 2 mil, took it for a boot and low and behold it shifted worse than before. this has to be a tyanny issue ?
Later
Anthony of Erin

BRADEY · **Reply #41 on:** October 06, 2011, 06:02:50 am

Quote from: Anthonyof Erin on October 06, 2011, 12:59:01 am

Ok so I adjusted the clutch free play to Less than 2 mil, took it for a boot and low and behold it shifted worse than before. this has to be a tyanny issue ?
Later
Anthony of Erin

You gotta get your primary side checked completely. It could be a problem with your plates, the auto chain tensioner, the clutch push pad or the cable.......!

On a second thought, you should also check the striker assembly (this part is attached to the shifter through a rocker, and moves the cam plate to change gears, can be accessed from the right hand side cover of the bike).

Start with the easiest things first. Change of clutch cable, opening the primary to check the primary chain tensioner, the clutch push pad and its bearings, the plates for wear and free movement in the clutch basket, and then move on to the right side of the bike to check the striker assembly.

Kevin Mahoney · **Reply #42 on:** October 06, 2011, 06:10:53 am

Are we mixing metaphors here? For example there is a world of difference between the 4 speed, 5 speed non unit and the UCE transmissions. The non unit and UCE are quite similar with man common parts but with a revised primary and clutch are also quite different. The shift mechanism between a 4 speed, a 5 speed and a Jap bike are also quite different. The 5 speed us much the same as a late Triumph non unit engine. The 4 speed, well it is the 4 speed. Strong to a fault but shifts like a tractor. Jap bikes us a roller type system All are different. I have not read the entire thread but comparing one to the other as far as shifting and "no clutch" techniques isn't going to work.

Anthonyof Erin · **Reply #43 on:** October 06, 2011, 12:50:07 pm

I am not having any of that. This bike is a 2010 C5. I will let the dealer figure it out as their is still warrany on this bike. Will keep you posted. Positve or negative.
Take Care