Author Topic: Sticky SHIFTING (Read 7037 times)

mustangdave · **on:** July 14, 2011, 06:14:26 pm

shifting issues...transmission will shift up...but VERY difficult to move shift lever UP thru 1..2...and to 3rd...4th and 5th are fine....down shifting is not to bad...but I think its sticking in 3rd...not fun on a lunch run...engine stalled out at a couple stop lights...and I had to hand shift it to 1st/ neutral...to restart....semi grrrr

Arizoni · **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2011, 07:12:22 pm

Is this on a new UCE bike or one of the older ones?

mustangdave · **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2011, 07:22:25 pm

2005 Iron barrel....I'm hitting the Archives as time permits...

mustangdave · **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2011, 08:09:44 pm

I'm thinking its as simple as adjusting the clutch cable....

mustangdave · **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2011, 10:44:58 pm

Quote from: mustangdave on July 14, 2011, 08:09:44 pm

I'm thinking its as simple as adjusting the clutch cable....

That would be a NO...here is how its behaving...starting out in 1st...HARD getting it into 2nd....3rd...4th and 5th are good to go....down shifting to a stop...I can get it to 3rd...and then neutral (go figure)...and the engine will stall out at the stop....and I reach over and drop it into probably 2nd by hand....restart and keep the revs up....HELP ME Mr Wizard...LOL

Arizoni · **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2011, 10:53:23 pm

It goes without saying that the correct type and level of oil is in the transmission? (Someone had to ask.)

mustangdave · **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:22:51 pm

Ya know AZ....

...That thought had crossed my mind. When I got the bike and looked at the MAINT Log....it said the previous owner put ATF in the tranny....I have not done a fluid change on the bike yet...so its running on what was in the crankcase when it arrived....and I've only put maybe 600 miles on it since....

Blltrdr · **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:49:36 am

Quote from: mustangdave on July 14, 2011, 11:22:51 pm

Ya know AZ.... ...That thought had crossed my mind. When I got the bike and looked at the MAINT Log....it said the previous owner put ATF in the tranny....I have not done a fluid change on the bike yet...so its running on what was in the crankcase when it arrived....and I've only put maybe 600 miles on it since....

You need to go through this bike pronto. If your running ATF in the tranny you will have problems. You should be running a hypoid gear lube like a 80-90/75-90. ATF in the primary is OK and is used by many on the forum. I would check all fluids and levels before you ride it anymore. And make sure the log entry says primary instead of gearbox.

Arizoni · **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2011, 01:18:45 am

"it said the previous owner put ATF in the tranny"
-----------

That could explain much.
ATF is pretty good stuff for providing lube for bearings but it doesn't have the Extreme Pressure Lubricant needed for the spur gears.
It also isn't thick enough to cushion the meshing of the gear teeth.

The splines the gears slide on when they are shifting from one gear to another also need some of this EPL that is found in hypoid gear lube and the fact that it isn't there could be the cause of your problem.

mustangdave · **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:08:34 am

Ok...looking at the manual....page 69...recommended lubricants...under clutch there is a hand written "ATF"...15w 40....420ml.....under gearbox is EP90...450ml

The LOGBOOK entry dated 7/1/06...2000miles...oil change, clutch oil change...adjust chain.

regular oil changes at 4000...5800...7300...then the bike changed hands twice and only an additional 500 mile before I got it at 7800....its now at 8400ish...and probably due for a good fluid swap out. Reading through the LOG BOOK...I'm relatively certain that ATF was NOT put in the gear box.

I've some AMSOil ready to go in pretty short order.

ace.cafe · **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:10:17 am

I'm sayin' that it's clutch drag.

Are you holding the clutch lever in at stop lights?

mustangdave · **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:24:08 am

Quote from: ace.cafe on July 15, 2011, 02:10:17 am

I'm sayin' that it's clutch drag.

Are you holding the clutch lever in at stop lights?

Yep...until I find NEUTRAL....I did notice that the clutch cable seemed a bit "sloppy"...so I tightened it up a bit using that adjusting barrel on the lever.

ace.cafe · **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:38:18 am

Quote from: mustangdave on July 15, 2011, 02:24:08 am

Yep...until I find NEUTRAL....I did notice that the clutch cable seemed a bit "sloppy"...so I tightened it up a bit using that adjusting barrel on the lever.

Perhaps the previous owner did that more than you.

Here's what happens.
The clutch plates are often not perfect, and when they are released by the release mechanism, they drag against each other and cause heat to build up.
This can happen within a matter of less than a minute.
Then, the steel plates warp, and the clutch will never release cleanly again until that is rectified.

The typical recommendation is to not hold the clutch lever in for more than 5 seconds, while finding neutral. Then pull the lever in again to select first when you are about to ride off. No holding it in for any period of time.

Also, holding the clutch lever in can friction-weld the clutch release rod to the ball bearing in the release rod series, and then the whold release rod will be turning and generating heat at both ends, instead of rotating against the ball in the middle. Pretty common occurrence.

Pretty much all British clutches are like this. It isn't just Enfield.

Next time you have your primary open, take the clutch plates out and check the steel plates for flatness by laying them on a pane of plate glass. You'll probably find that they are warped.

mustangdave · **Reply #13 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:50:48 am

Ace...this is not making me

...in the event they are warped...what then...replace?

geichal · **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2011, 04:31:05 am

I may have a good set of extras if you need them.
geichal

baird4444 · **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2011, 04:43:51 am

but first try this...
Go ahead and adjust the clutch...
now YOU NEED TO change your riding habits...
neutral is actually easier to hit at 5 mph or less...

Ace was right bout the clutch, it is the weakest link;
just use it to change gears WHILE in motion; that is what
it was designed for.
Give it a try - Mike

Chasfield · **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2011, 07:40:27 am

The plain steel plates are cheap, so I would recommend buying complete set, then with the aid of a piece of flat glass, choose the flatest ones from both sets.

Pay particular attention to the inner and outer dished ones. If the working surfaces of these have a additional dishing, such that they don't make flat contact with adjacent friction plates, then you will never get a clean clutch release - the springyness of the pack will just chase down the clutch lift mechanism.

Good plain steel plates get you half way there. A good set of Barnett or Surflex friction plates will almost certainly improve matters.

My worst plate was the innermost friction plate, the one with the black liquorice friction pads. It was stupidly warped so I bought some Surflex friction plates from Hitchcocks, which improved things no end.

mustangdave · **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:12:45 pm

Quote from: geichal on July 15, 2011, 04:31:05 am

I may have a good set of extras if you need them.
geichal

I'll keep that in mind...

mustangdave · **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:14:51 pm

Quote from: baird4444 on July 15, 2011, 04:43:51 am

but first try this...
Go ahead and adjust the clutch...
now YOU NEED TO change your riding habits...
neutral is actually easier to hit at 5 mph or less...

Ace was right bout the clutch, it is the weakest link;
just use it to change gears WHILE in motion; that is what
it was designed for.
Give it a try - Mike

Thanks Mike...thats pretty much the plan...start at the weakest link...

mustangdave · **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2011, 03:03:21 pm

...LMBO....everyone around here with a motorcycle is an expert...until I say...but its a BRITISH bike...I am going to do the clutch adjustment FIRST...well not first...but AFTER I drain the fluid(s)...LOL...thing is...I can only "see" one place for FILLING the crankcase.

Philbomoog · **Reply #20 on:** July 15, 2011, 10:00:04 pm

With reference to gear oil, I was having clunky gear changes and a fair number of false neutrals and spent ages fiddling with the clutch cable and actuator to sort it out with no luck.

I changed the gear oil for a 80/90 and for the last 300 miles its been sweet. I can even select neutral when stationary

.

Always worth a try, as its a quick, easy job and cheap.

baird4444 · **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2011, 04:07:16 pm

Quote from: mustangdave on July 15, 2011, 12:14:51 pm

Thanks Mike...thats pretty much the plan...start at the weakest link...

Always go to neutral...
this clutch was designed to change gears, only to be used
a couple a seconds at a time. Much more than that and you'll
induce cable stretch which is gonna throw the adjustment out...
then there is the plate overheating with extended use....
best bet is to use it as designed; just to change gears
or in and out of gear... always in motion of course.
- Mike

mustangdave · **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2011, 03:09:52 am

All good advice...I do try to get the bike into neutral when stopped....more times than not.

bob bezin · **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2011, 01:59:33 pm

a friend of mine ,a vintage bike rebuilder recommended lucas transmission fix, stops slip for vintage transmissions . he said it helps them shift smoothly.

mustangdave · **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2011, 03:37:39 pm

Quote from: bob bezin on July 18, 2011, 01:59:33 pm

a friend of mine ,a vintage bike rebuilder recommended lucas transmission fix, stops slip for vintage transmissions . he said it helps them shift smoothly.

Thanks for the tip....

mustangdave · **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2011, 12:04:20 am

...after dinner we tackle the clutch drag issue...and maybe even drain and fill all the fluids.

mustangdave · **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2011, 02:40:01 am

Quote from: mustangdave on July 19, 2011, 12:04:20 am

...after dinner we tackle the clutch drag issue...and maybe even drain and fill all the fluids.

Ok...whose ready?...no clutch drag...no welded clutch plate...just a very SLACK chain...Steve and I did the muscling and adjusting...took it for a test ride...no shifting issues...thank god. That leaves the weekend to drain the fluids...BOO YAH!!!!

Arizoni · **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2011, 02:46:34 am

Glad to hear you got it working.

I think your on the right track with changing all of the fluids so YOU know you've got the right stuff in each place.

There's enough to worry about on some of these bikes without unknown things grabbing you in the butt when you least expect it.

mustangdave · **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2011, 12:08:15 pm

I do love an easy FIX....I rode Whitey into work this morning...shifting was more like normal. I also consciously put it in NEUTRAL at the few stops along the way...shifting up through the gears as well as down was much more pleasant. We're back in business...now if this blasted HEAT would just go away AND the humidity

barenekd · **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2011, 11:29:56 pm

If the clutch is seemingly adjusted right and neutral is hard to find while stopped, a warped disk or one that is cutting into the basket, so it can't move, is the usual problem.
It can also cause iffy or hard shifting, but the finding neutral at the stop is the big giveaway.
Bare

mustangdave · **Reply #30 on:** July 20, 2011, 01:42:13 pm

so far so good

...this blasted HEAT though is a bear...seems to shift better in the cool of the morning...the afternoon heat is like a smelting furnace...and my impatience to allow for some warm up time is also a factor I think. Still sorting it out...fluid change and a tire change coming to a garage near you this weekend

mustangdave · **Reply #31 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:53:23 pm

This should be the last entry on this thread...RB was over yesterday...we got the fluids all swapped out and adjusted the primary chain a bit...This should cure this round of "sorting out"...more smiles per mile

StephenCB · **Reply #32 on:** July 24, 2011, 08:59:29 pm

The heat and humidity still needs to go away, or at least tone it down so the high heat index is at least less than 100.

mustangdave · **Reply #33 on:** July 25, 2011, 01:53:07 am

I'm kinda ok with the heat....the humidity sucks the life outa me though. Took whitey out for a romp this evening to get all the new juices flowing and...shifting is better...though I did get one false neutral...

Arizoni · **Reply #34 on:** July 25, 2011, 05:20:39 am

I'm beginning to believe that false neutrals are normal operation for RE's.

I can go for hours without a "false neutral" problem and suddenly, RUMMMMMA, there's another one.

mustangdave · **Reply #35 on:** July 25, 2011, 03:36:35 pm

the more I ride in this blast furnace heat...the more I'm just about convinced that heat is a factor to some degree...cause in the mornings its smooth shifting when the temps are lower and the air is not so humid

barenekd · **Reply #36 on:** July 25, 2011, 05:03:20 pm

Quote

The heat and humidity still needs to go away, or at least tone it down so the high heat index is at least less than 100.

The heat index, or wind chill factor, mean nothing to an engine. They only are affected by actual temperature. Both are calculated by the human body's ability to maintain it's own operating temperature by factoring in wind and humidity which makes us miserable, but the mechanical stuff doesn't care. the temp on it will rise or fall only to the actual temp. Cold blooded animals they are. But high temperatures can bring out high operating temperatures such as oil temps rising above their normal levels which can cause your shifting and running problems as the oil thins out too much.
Just an aside to commonly misused terms.
Bare

Chasfield · **Reply #37 on:** July 25, 2011, 05:42:49 pm

I think heat does have a drastic effect on clutch drag/shift quality. My bike's shift is perfect with a stone cold engine. Moderate warming of the the clutch and primary drive after my 8 mile run to work is sufficient to degrade the change a noticeable amount.

Very high ambient temperatures, I am sure, won't help here and will be a factor in how fast the gear change goes off. Not often a problem in the UK!.

mustangdave · **Reply #38 on:** July 25, 2011, 08:28:48 pm

Quote from: Chasfield on July 25, 2011, 05:42:49 pm

I think heat does have a drastic effect on clutch drag/shift quality. My bike's shift is perfect with a stone cold engine. Moderate warming of the the clutch and primary drive after my 8 mile run to work is sufficient to degrade the change a noticeable amount.

Very high ambient temperatures, I am sure, won't help here and will be a factor in how fast the gear change goes off. Not often a problem in the UK!.

Interesting...we commute the same distance....

baird4444 · **Reply #39 on:** July 25, 2011, 09:50:07 pm

Quote from: Arizoni on July 25, 2011, 05:20:39 am

I'm beginning to believe that false neutrals are normal operation for RE's.
I can go for hours without a "false neutral" problem and suddenly, RUMMMMMA, there's another one.

I still hit one every once in a while. I've realized that it is usually caused
when I get lazy on the clutch and don't pull the lever all the way in.
aka operator error... - Mike

ROVERMAN · **Reply #40 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:24:26 pm

mustangdave · **Reply #41 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:51:10 pm

I tend to have a HEAVY foot when down shifting...I don't think Whitey appreciates it to much

n1acguy · **Reply #42 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:20:31 am

Quote from: Arizoni on July 25, 2011, 05:20:39 am

I'm beginning to believe that false neutrals are normal operation for RE's.

I can go for hours without a "false neutral" problem and suddenly, RUMMMMMA, there's another one.

'A neutral between every gear'. If more is better, it could be a selling point