[Rosetap]

A few weeks back, I had my entire bike konk out on the side of the road.  After fixing a few wiring problems, the bike then blew up my Radon speedometer unit (fried input traces, etc etc). 

Fiddling today, I've figured out that the max voltage I get in the system with the battery connected is around 15.XX volts, but with the battery DISCONNECTED and the bike running (not intentionally, it fell out while I had the meter connected) it jumps up to more than 30 volts!  This is bad.  I'm assuming the voltage regulator/rectifier is the problem, and this also explains the blown headlights etc.

Now, my voltage regulator/rectifier is a single unit, where three wires from the primary (yellow) enter it, and two wires exit it (black and red).  From using the meter, i've figured out that the black wire is ground and the red wire is supposed to be the "to battery, charging" wire. 

I can't seem to find any of my style of regulator/rectifier online, does anyone know where I could get one.  Alternately, my father is a 40-year board electrician, and would jump at the chance to make a BULLET-proof (ha!) voltage reg/rec.  The only thing I would need to know is the specifics of the alternator function.

Any helpers?

[Chasfield]

There have been various types of alternator used on Indian Bullets.

Mine is a four-wire one (two pairs), with the auxiliary windings providing AC headlamp main beam power via a dedicated AC voltage regulator. I turned this 4 wire alt. into a two wire one by merging the lighting windings with the main ones. These now feed the AC side of a standard aftermarket reg/rec unit (Wassell). This single phase device has two yellow inputs and the usual red and black DC outputs.

My understanding is that the three-wire alternators are essentially simple, single phase, two-wire devices because two of the output lines are jumped together in one of the plugs they go through. The other line is the common return for the two sets of windings.

My write up on my rewire is here (in amongst a long and digressive thread):

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,3064.0.html

It includes an under seat picture that shows the reg/rec installed.

[Rosetap]

All three wires are kept separate on mine all the way to the one-piece voltage regulator. 

I think the simplest thing to do will be to probe the three yellow wires with both the key on, and the bike running, with a good multimeter.  That'll 'splain it.

[Rosetap]

Of course, there are some systems (Lucas, I'm looking at you!) where the battery was an integral part of the rectifier/regulator, and voltages like that are to be expected.

Hrmmm

[GreenMachine]

rosetap: you really want to perform your troubleshooting with the battery in the circuit...

[Rosetap]

I know this, but with the battery in the circuit it appears as though the voltage regulator is fine.  But with the battery accidentally disconnected, it was reading upwards of 30 volts, and I'm pretty sure it killed my headlight and radon speedometer. 

"testing" with the battery in circuit won't show any problems, and I'm just wondering if that is how it is supposed to be (like a simple switched power supply, it won't show proper voltage unless there's a load on the circuit) or if something is broken.  Do you understand?

[Arizoni]

If I knew about electric things (which I don't)  I would say the battery must be in the circuit to provide a load that will stabilize the system.

While the system has a dedicated load on it, the peaks and valleys of the alternator output voltage as the engine speed varies remain stable.

Knowing that this condition can exist, if my bike starts burning out headlights and bulbs, the battery connection will be the first thing I check.

[GreenMachine]

u just answered your own question...you leave the load on and u see pretty much correct voltages but you take it off (floating) and now its unterminated and u seeing crazy voltages..right..

[Rosetap]

You have to understand, GreenMachine, that there are two types of voltage regulators.  Good ones, that will output pretty much the correct voltages no matter the load (until the breakdown limit), or crap ones that need a load like a battery.  The problem is, even crap voltage regulators normally don't output 3-4 times the normal "corrected" voltage without a load.  It's usually something like 10 or 20 percent over at most.  That means, without a battery, I should be seeing 17 volts at most, not 30 to 40. 

That's why I was asking if my voltage regulator was bad, or if the engineering on these is so bad that they will really output enough volts to fry a battery over time.  And if they are really that bad, we need to warn the people who are running anything but the normal refillable batteries that their voltage regulators are killers!

[GreenMachine]

okay i see where u are going with this..well mine a 06 iron and i remember reading that the newer machines (back then mine was consider a newer machine) had the upgraded 2 piece voltage/regulator manufactures by Motorola corp..Their is also a one piece unit u can buy and you are correct...  if the output of the components are exceeding the specifications required to charge the battery, well sure its going to ruin them eventually ..Kinds like having a variable power supply and you are overcharging a battery to the point it will start to boil...The Motorola components are suppose to be the brand you would want and that's what are host sells between 60 -100 dollars...their are about 3 -4 types, so u have to order the voltage/regulator setup for your specific machine..that's why i ask u what year is your bike....

[Rosetap]

Oh, it's a 2009 AVL (military classic frame, but still AVL) with that one-piece three wire regulator.

[GreenMachine]

u can use the two piece rectifier/regulator p/n 502030A for 83 bucks..i also read that the electra avl has the one piece rectifier/regulator already installled as OEM...Does your bik have the 2 or 1 piece rectifier/regulator? 

[Rosetap]

Did you read my post?

[GreenMachine]

i did and to be honest I'm confused..but lets talk a little about rectification and regulation...as u r aware  rectification is the process of taking alternating current, in this case the ac produced by our machines (alternator's) and rectifying it (lets say it full bridge rectification )  and producing a  dc signal  ( in actuality its dc with a small ac component),   we then take this signal  and regulate it using a (for simplicity sake) a zen er diode or combination of zeners and capacitors to regulate and clean up the voltage,  This is the basic premise of producing  DC voltage from AC.  This is the signal or voltage that the battery will use as well as our brake  lights, turn signal ,etc....i believe that the headlight is straight off the alternator and not part of our discussion...
...
the alternator produces a certain range of ac Volts at varying Rpms..you'll notice your headlight glows brighter when u rev the engine... keep n mind that the regulation portion of the voltage regulator maintains the voltage and current demands within the specification of the components and the engineering application..in this case, keeping the battery charged and operating our brake lights and trafficators and 12 volts to the dc side of the coil....Most expensive equipment require power supplies that not only have accurate dc levels but  accurate and precise regulation to satisfy the  demands that their specifications call for...In  our case, we are looking at  voltages with a meter to determine if we are seeing correct voltages...That being stated, It would be interesting to hook a o-scope and look at the DC levels to see if their is excessive AC ripple on the DC or is it simply a defective zener diode that has failed....do these components fail,, sure they do, components fail from heat, age,vibration, excessive voltage applied, etc..To be frank, I think the manufacture probably uses the minimal amount of voltage  regulation for the bike...its probably better than what was out there in 1956 but were not talking hospital grade equipment or  a high tech applications that generate alot of heat but still need to perform...Upgrading the wiring is a good thing indeed but I rather keep it simple as I don't have a Motorola schematic of the actual voltage regulator which would shed a better light on the subject...just trying to  be helpful /sorry for the lecture..cheers...

[The Garbone]

I would just buy and real good aftermarket regulator and be done with the fretting.. 

The one big issue I see is that a lot of the aftermarket jobs don't really give you a good diagram on what the specs are in their advertisements.

[GreenMachine]

true...it really comes down to just replacing the problem child.....just having a bit of fun...