[prof_stack]

Two hours of dyno room time.  The shop paid for one of them.

The backstory:  With the upswept muffler  installed, the C5 has been popping, pooting, and POWing with backfires.  Performance has been better as the bike is freer breathing.  The K&N air filter also helps.  But the backfires are irritating.

Ducati/RE Seattle wanted to see if a dynojet or powercommander might work and also wanted to sniff the gases for more information.

Here's a brief summary.  I still don't understand all of it.  But eventually...

• The upswept muffler has a baffle in it that prevents the sniffer rod to get far enough inside to be useful.
• The fuel/air mix is rich for higher rpm's.  I saw the ratios but don't yet have the printout.  It is better to have it richer than leaner.
• Max HP was 19 under normal load.  With the airbox door open it went up 5% to 20HP. 
• I saw the graphs and will post the jpeg of them when they email them to me. 
• He said it topped out at 90mph when the rev limiter kicked in.  That was measured with the dyno equipment, not the speedometer.
• Marty the tech said that a larger air filter would let in more air that should increase HP a little.  r80rt's system seems like a good idea.
• They removed the throttle body and checked HP with no tube and got nice results for high rpm's but horrible low rpm results.

So, it cost me $100 to find out that they can't do anything about the system until they learn more about how to defeat the O2 sensor and not have an error code pop up in the computer system of the bike.

I'll post more details and comments, plus HP/torque graphs when they are ready.

[gashousegorilla]

 Thanks Prof for the info That was great!  So the tone is not that fare away .......Ummmmmm


•Marty the tech said that a larger air filter would let in more air that should increase HP a little.  r80rt's system seems like a good idea.
 
Come on r80rt !  Kick in some for the Guy will ya!   

[BRADEY]

The Indian C5 ECU do not have O2 sensors. Check if you can lay your hands on one.

[Andy]

• Max HP was 19 under normal load.  With the airbox door open it went up 5% to 20HP. 

Isn't that significantly less than claimed?

[prof_stack]

Isn't that significantly less than claimed?

It is pretty typical to claim a "potential" HP or one at the crankcase rather than at the rear wheel. 

My C5 has 1700 miles but showed no significant HP increase over their first C5 demo last August which they similarly tested.

I don't think (m)any of us bought the UCE for its HP or potential. 

[TWinOKC]

So why not just switch to the other EFI silencer?    I have one on my bike, it does backfire once in a great while, I kind of like it.  

[clubman]

So why not just switch to the other EFI silencer?    I have one on my bike, it does backfire once in a great while, I kind of like it.  

Doesn't the upswept one claim a power increase as well as more noise? With actual power being a full 33% less than claimed you need all you can get!   

[r80rt]

I stole that system from Shappers but it do work good,   Looking forward to seeing your graph.

[72westie]

19 hp with a pipe? I had dyno'd a '09 bone stock UCE and she was putting out 21 hp at the rear wheel. Did Enfield pull a Japanese move and make the first year bikes have more power then the following year ones?? 

[GreenMachine]

u guys have me wondering if my iron with the open up exhaust and carb changes will do better than 19 hp at the rear wheel..i think i'll go pop a wheelie..

[singhg5]

• He said it topped out at 90mph when the rev limiter kicked in.  That was measured with the dyno equipment, not the speedometer.

So, it cost me $100 to find out that they can't do anything about the system

Interesting to find out that your bike max was 90 mph - not bad !  The claimed HP for these bikes is about 26-27 HP at the crank, which indicates 30% loss when tested at the wheel.  Anybody has figures how much power is lost between crank and rear wheel ?

I think RE did not want ECU programming be altered easily - that can cause problems with the warranty.

[GreenRE]

Are you suggesting that the Power Commander did not work ? IIRC Hitchcocks has a power commander for sale.

[Ice]

Hello GreenRE and welcome aboard.

Powercommander ECU's are tunable,,,,OEM ECU's are not,,,,at least not by us anyway.

[Ducati Scotty]

The Power Commander rides on top of the original ECU in most cases, it doesn't replace it.  There has been trouble in the past getting PCs to work with other bikes with O2 sensors.  I'm sure they'll sort it eventually.  The original ECU is still looking for the ECU output.  There is a device for the new Ducatis, it's just a variable resistor that goes inline with the O2 sensor.  I believe it lowers the voltage getting to the ECU so it thinks its running leaner than it really is.  It's not a one size fits all solution though and I don't know if you can use it in addition to a PC.

If you want to know more about how fuel injection works check out Brad Black's pages on it.  He is the authority in my book and a very helpful guy too.  I've exchanged many e-mails with him in the past.

http://www.bikeboy.org/performance.html

Scott

[ScooterBob]

The PC-IV that I was developing used a "fooler" for the O2 sensor. It wasn't a problem. I do think that Allan has some good mapping worked out.

[Ducati Scotty]

Cool!  Any idea how that works?  Does it just send a constant voltage so that the ECU thinks the mixture is just fine all the time?

Scott

[prof_stack]

Here is the dyno run (top gear) chart.
The BLACK LINE is the Torque (upper graph) and HP (lower graph).
The RED LINE is the Torque and HP with the airbox door open.

Notice how just getting more air into the chamber improves things a lot once the motor is past 3,000 rpm's.  5th gear at 45mph is about that rev rate.  So, roll-ons would be improved with more air in the box.

Later, I'll post the Air-Fuel ratios.  This UCE shows to be rich for most all of the range.

[ace.cafe]

Dynos vary, so the numbers are most useful as a relative measurement against a baseline test of the bike on the same dyno.
So, I would use this same dyno for all future tests, and use this test as your baseline for comparison.

The issue of improvement with the airbox open seems to show restriction in cfm air flow thru the filter  or intake system at torque peak and higher. This creates a drop in air pressure at the throttle body entry, which impairs volumetric efficiency.
It's not terribly unusual for stock systems to show this kind of behavior.

Regarding the questions about 33% drive-line loss, these bikes usually show about 5hp driveline loss in the non-UCE 5-speeds, and I doubt that the UCE is any worse than the pre-unit models. The UCE should be a little better than the pre-unit in this regard.
So, I suspect that the crank hp rating was also optimistic.

[Ducati Scotty]

It's interesting how much the torque drops off at high revs.

Stack, was this with the stock paper filter or the K&N?  If you need a bigger filter the 65-68 Corvair filter fits in the box.  You can't use the airbox retrofit and you should flip the bottom bolt so it points out but you can get a paper one at any auto shop for $10 or get a K&N for way more flow.

Scott

[prof_stack]

It's interesting how much the torque drops off at high revs.

Stack, was this with the stock paper filter or the K&N?  If you need a bigger filter the 65-68 Corvair filter fits in the box.  You can't use the airbox retrofit and you should flip the bottom bolt so it points out but you can get a paper one at any auto shop for $10 or get a K&N for way more flow.

Scott

The K&N filter is the one in my C5.  There was no plastic cover inside the airbox.  I'll check out the Corvair filter.  Got part #'s?  thanks!

[Ducati Scotty]

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=E-1150

E-1150

And  pic of my paper element one:
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=3328

Scott

[prof_stack]

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=E-1150
E-1150
...Scott

Great, Scott!  A shop in town has the E-1150 on the shelf which I will pick up on the way (pedaling) home.

[Desi Bike]

Just looked up the vehicle applications for the 1150 filter. It also fits the Dacia Sandero.. James May would be proud.

[prof_stack]

Here is an interesting chart of the air-fuel ratios over the rpm range.

What mastertuner Marty says is that 13:1 is the usual dividing line between being too lean (higher ratio) or too rich (lower ratio).  Notice that ALL the figures are in the rich range. 

But with the airbox door open, ALL the figures are closer to being "correct". 

So, at least for my C5, job 1 should be to get more air in there.  We'll see how the E-1150 pans out.

[Ducati Scotty]

It'd be nice if they did a run with a stock paper filter for comparison to the K&N.  They shouldn't charge you for that, they can use it as marketing material to sell K&N filters to new RE owners

Scott

[Ducati Scotty]

Hmmmmm...  If a C5 does 90mph with stock gearing (18/40) then we should be able to hit 95mph with 19/40 gearing.  Getting closer to the ton

[r80rt]

I think the UCE will be able to hit the ton with out a lot of work or expense, it's a sweet little machine.

[prof_stack]

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=E-1150

E-1150

I pedaled to the Action Autoparts store and found that the 1150 looks WAY too big to fit into the airbox.  Here are the numbers:

K&N E-1150
Height: 3.5 in (89 mm)
Inner Wire: No
Inside Diameter: 8 in (203 mm)
Outside Diameter: 10 in (254 mm)   


This might be the proper size.
Paper
Wix 42087
Height:   3.109
Outer Diameter:  5.500
 Inner Diameter:  3.812
 CFM:  75

The clerk said that the 42087 is for Corvairs without air conditioning while the 42088 (or E-1150) is for Corvairs with air conditioning. 

Do you have a K&N number for the 42087?

Oh, it was a good bicycle ride today, so all is fine.  It will let me drink an extra pint at the Nick tomorrow.

[Ducati Scotty]

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=E-0900
That one cross references with the WIX filter you noted.  And here's the search page:
http://www.knfilters.com/search/appsearch.aspx

I think I looked at 68 Covair earlier and only the 1150 came up.  I looked at 65 and they both came up.  Funny, it says the 1150 is w/o AC and 900 is with.  Regardless, the 900 looks closer to the size we want.

Scott

[prof_stack]

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=E-0900
That one cross references with the WIX filter you noted.  And here's the search page:
http://www.knfilters.com/search/appsearch.aspx

I think I looked at 68 Covair earlier and only the 1150 came up.  I looked at 65 and they both came up.  Funny, it says the 1150 is w/o AC and 900 is with.  Regardless, the 900 looks closer to the size we want.
Scott

Thanks.  Yeah, I got the A/C reversed.  But the clerk did mention 900 for the K&N number, but didn't have any on the shelf. 

[prof_stack]

It'd be nice if they did a run with a stock paper filter for comparison to the K&N.  They shouldn't charge you for that, they can use it as marketing material to sell K&N filters to new RE owners

Scott

Now that you mention it, the shop did a dyno run on the first C5 they got in.  I can get the jpeg for that, I'm sure.  I do remember that it also topped out at 19HP but I don't know about the finer details.

[Maturin]

This is a very interesting threat, but unfortunately the G5-airbox is different from the C5´s so the G5 riders can´t use all this information.
But getting more precious air could do Precious well too. Actually there is a Hitchcock-part as replacement for the G5 stock air filter (AM/FILTER21, £43.50). Did anyone try this? Looks quite expensive to me for a quick buy-and-try.

[prof_stack]

Here is the dyno chart from my C5 test.  I bold-faced the numbers of most interest.  Zero to sixty in 13 seconds.  Sounds about right.

WITH AIRBOX DOOR OPEN: 

Anything stand out to you?

Dyno-wiz Marty will get me the dyno run info from the demo C5, bone stock.  He did say something interesting about the air filters.  If the opening in the airbox is small, putting a less restrictive air filter on can be a total waste of money.  I think that might be what the C5 has.  This is borne out in part seeing how the numbers rise up with the airbox open.  

Maybe we can make a bigger hole?  

[r80rt]

Thanks for the chart, it's pretty interesting. You could remove the plastic scoop on the back of the box and replace it with a screen to get a bigger inlet, or drill a bunch of holes in the scoop to allow more air in.
I wasn't after performance when I put the K&N pod on mine, I live in a dusty area and wanted the convenience of a washable filter, I doubt it flows much better than a stock filter would in the air box.

[prof_stack]

Here is the chart I should have posted first.

WITH AIRBOX DOOR CLOSED (normal)


Notice that there is not much difference in HP or torque between crank and real wheel.  These numbers are pretty similar to the stock C5 numbers he tested last July.  I will get those files later.

Air/Fuel numbers below 13 are considered rich.  We're all rich!