Author Topic: New starter relay but no starty... What?  (Read 8165 times)

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Ragmas

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Reply #15 on: April 22, 2011, 02:31:30 pm
The mystery deepens !  Just to back track a bit.  What was happening with the motorcycle that prompted to replace the starter relay in the first place ?  Any funny behaviour at that time ?

When I pulled the bike out of storage for spring I had to change the end on the Negative lead to the battery.  The original had broken.  When I hooked the battery back up the starter started spinning.  No matter what I did every time I hhoked it up it spun and kept on spinning.  I guess the relay took a knock in the process of pulling the battery out to suss the problem and then it was fine, but suspect.  Following ScooterBob's advice I disconnected the dipole leads and asked my dealer for a new relay which ordered and sent to me under warranty.  Since this relay is different from stock I had to cut wires in order to install it.  Very wierd shenannigans afoot here.  At this point I am going to take the bike to my dealer and hopefully I will have it back in short order.

On the positive side, it starts and drives no problem, with the kicker that is.  I figure I'll toss it in the back of the truck and driver it on doen to my dealer an hour away on long island here in the near future.

Sam
2009 G-5 Military
Little Falls, NY


GreenMachine

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Reply #16 on: April 22, 2011, 03:33:14 pm
..When I hooked the battery back up the starter started spinning.  No matter what I did every time I hhoked it up it spun and kept on spinning.  I guess the relay took a knock in the process of pulling the battery out to suss the problem and then it was fine..
not a bad move to take to the dealer...u had your play and it went south. Even with my cars, if its under warrantly I'm going to the dealer...when its no longer under warranty, I'll take a look..
Oh Magoo you done it again


Sub

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Reply #17 on: April 25, 2011, 08:50:06 pm
My bike recently didn't start for a different reason, in case people are interested. My starter apparently gets caught in between the poles and applying the start button just causes the solenoid (relay?!) to click. a temporary solution is to whack the starter motor with a screwdriver to get it to move a bit. Dealer is ordering me a new starter motor..


ScooterBob

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Reply #18 on: April 26, 2011, 02:33:28 am
My bike recently didn't start for a different reason, in case people are interested. My starter apparently gets caught in between the poles and applying the start button just causes the solenoid (relay?!) to click. a temporary solution is to whack the starter motor with a screwdriver to get it to move a bit. Dealer is ordering me a new starter motor..

I'm guessing  ......... no. That is a NipponDenso starter motor - not a hand wound Chalmers-Delco from the 30's .... It may BE an internal problem with the starter motor - but stuck "between poles"? Voodoo, I say - VOO-DOO .....  ::) But hey - new and free are good ....
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!


Sub

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Reply #19 on: April 26, 2011, 04:05:15 am
All, I know is after I whacked it per my dealers suggestion she fired right up. this bike IS 10% voodoo


gashousegorilla

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Reply #20 on: April 26, 2011, 05:41:15 am
 Sub, your relay is likely clicking because the hunk of metal inside the relay is getting stuck. It's a common problem when a relay "goes bad". On the older ones , that were not sealed, you could take them apart, clean up the hunk of iron and the inside casing of rust, and you were good to go. All a relay is, is a switch activated by a electro magnet.  Remember science class with the battery, nail rapped with wire and the paper clip?  Well that's basically what a relay is. The paper clip is the hunk of iron inside the casing of the relay.
 When you hit the start button, you are sending a small amount of magic to the coil on top of the relay, ( nail rapped in wire), which turns into a magnit and lifts the hunk of iron,(paper clip) which makes contact, inside the relay, between the battery and the starter motor.  Think you may have a bad relay ?  Simple . Tap it, or something near by, and it may be enough to free up that hunk of iron, it may not take much of a tap either.
Maybe that iron is really stuck in there, and no amount of bashing is doing it?  Like someone said here, connect positive side of battery to positive side of starter in a pinch. Or to be a little safer, when it's acting up. With a multi meter check for juice at the starter when you hit the start button. No Juice? Well it can only come from one place, right? Either a stuck relay, or loose connections.  Free Starters ?   Where can I get me one?  :D
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Sub

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Reply #21 on: April 26, 2011, 04:20:45 pm
Sub, your relay is likely clicking because the hunk of metal inside the relay is getting stuck. It's a common problem when a relay "goes bad". On the older ones , that were not sealed, you could take them apart, clean up the hunk of iron and the inside casing of rust, and you were good to go. All a relay is, is a switch activated by a electro magnet.  Remember science class with the battery, nail rapped with wire and the paper clip?  Well that's basically what a relay is. The paper clip is the hunk of iron inside the casing of the relay.
 When you hit the start button, you are sending a small amount of magic to the coil on top of the relay, ( nail rapped in wire), which turns into a magnit and lifts the hunk of iron,(paper clip) which makes contact, inside the relay, between the battery and the starter motor.  Think you may have a bad relay ?  Simple . Tap it, or something near by, and it may be enough to free up that hunk of iron, it may not take much of a tap either.
Maybe that iron is really stuck in there, and no amount of bashing is doing it?  Like someone said here, connect positive side of battery to positive side of starter in a pinch. Or to be a little safer, when it's acting up. With a multi meter check for juice at the starter when you hit the start button. No Juice? Well it can only come from one place, right? Either a stuck relay, or loose connections.  Free Starters ?   Where can I get me one?  :D

This all makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of tapping from + on batt to the starter - at least I canstart it then. If it does it again, I'll put a meter to the starter motor to see if its getting 12v+. Thanks.


Ducati Scotty

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Reply #22 on: April 26, 2011, 05:07:08 pm
I have seen electric motors that get 'frozen' in just the right spot.  Turn them but hand just a little bit and they're off and running.

I've got the same symptoms.  On mine I definitly get a thunk, not a click.  The relay is definitely moving, you can feel it throught the seat.  The contacts may heve too much resistance when it seats but it's moving.

I'm taking it in today to have them look at it.  I can't decide whether it's the battery, relay, or starter.  Maybe it's just time to replace parts starting with the cheapest.

Scottt


olhogrider

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Reply #23 on: April 26, 2011, 05:10:48 pm
I have seen electric motors that get 'frozen' in just the right spot.  Turn them but hand just a little bit and they're off and running.

I've got the same symptoms.  On mine I definitly get a thunk, not a click.  The relay is definitely moving, you can feel it throught the seat.  The contacts may heve too much resistance when it seats but it's moving.

I'm taking it in today to have them look at it.  I can't decide whether it's the battery, relay, or starter.  Maybe it's just time to replace parts starting with the cheapest.

Scottt

So why don't you just kick start it? Oh yeah, same reason I don't.


ScooterBob

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Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 06:23:09 pm
Sub, your relay is likely clicking because the hunk of metal inside the relay is getting stuck. It's a common problem when a relay "goes bad". On the older ones , that were not sealed, you could take them apart, clean up the hunk of iron and the inside casing of rust, and you were good to go. All a relay is, is a switch activated by a electro magnet.  Remember science class with the battery, nail rapped with wire and the paper clip?  Well that's basically what a relay is. The paper clip is the hunk of iron inside the casing of the relay.
 When you hit the start button, you are sending a small amount of magic to the coil on top of the relay, ( nail rapped in wire), which turns into a magnit and lifts the hunk of iron,(paper clip) which makes contact, inside the relay, between the battery and the starter motor.  Think you may have a bad relay ?  Simple . Tap it, or something near by, and it may be enough to free up that hunk of iron, it may not take much of a tap either.
Maybe that iron is really stuck in there, and no amount of bashing is doing it?  Like someone said here, connect positive side of battery to positive side of starter in a pinch. Or to be a little safer, when it's acting up. With a multi meter check for juice at the starter when you hit the start button. No Juice? Well it can only come from one place, right? Either a stuck relay, or loose connections.  Free Starters ?   Where can I get me one?  :D

Roses are red .......
Violets are blue ........
Damn you're good .......

 ;) ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!


Sub

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Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 07:04:15 pm
Apparently bad starter motors are historically a common problem on Enfields. When I spoke to my Enfield dealer he said "the oem starters are crap" and he has been replacing them with Honda starters, which I assume are a direct fit, and a lot more reliable. I may go that route if the second one gives me trouble.


Ducati Scotty

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Reply #26 on: April 26, 2011, 07:08:59 pm
Any info on exactly which Honda starter fits would be appreciated.

Scott


Sub

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Reply #27 on: April 26, 2011, 07:37:34 pm
I'll try and find out..


Ducati Scotty

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Reply #28 on: April 26, 2011, 08:49:25 pm
So why don't you just kick start it? Oh yeah, same reason I don't.

Go ahead, just rub my nose in it! ;)


t120rbullet

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Reply #29 on: April 26, 2011, 09:14:24 pm
Apparently bad starter motors are historically a common problem on Enfields.

Not,
If you go and do a search both here and the Yahoo group for bad starter motors you'll find very few if any at all. And we all know that 99.9 % of the bad shows up on these groups.
Relays by the ton, Sprags by the ton, toothless gears, bad wiring and flat battery's  but not the starter motor itself.

When you start looking for the magic Honda starter motor that fits an Enfield you'll probably find that it's the same ND motor that Enfield is using. When they (REM) started the design stage of the ES back in the late 90s early 00s they were asking for company's to submit motors for trial from all around the world. They went with an off the shelf ND motor that was already time tested in the Japanese market and designed the ES around that. It's probably the only thing that is worth a poop in the whole ES setup. 
Just my 2 cents,
CJ
1972 FLH "Sambo"
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2023 Guzzi V7 Special "BOB"