[Ragmas]

So my dealer was kind enough to send me a new and improved starter relay under warranty.  I go to hook it up as per the supplied instructions.  I do so and as I go to test the sytem it does not work.  I follow instructions and swap the dipole leads and instead of working the ignition key is no longer the ignition key but the headlight switch is the ignition key.  I then disconnect the dipole stuff and put it back together.  Ignition key back to normal headlight switch back to normal, but now I have no neutral light.  I can see the neutral wire behind the battery box and it looks a little toasty, of course this is on the harness side of the connector and not the switch side.  I know the relay works because I can short the leads and the bike starts, but without the bike knowing that it is in neutral I cannot start the bike electronically. 

So to summarize. 

New relay ( I refuse to call it a solenoid since it is a relay)

No neutral light
possibly toasty neutral switch wire in the harness and now no starty.

What now?

Sam

[GreenMachine]

put the original back in and see if it starts..

[Ragmas]

The original was the problem and now I have chopped ends off in order to get wire sleeves and rubber boots onto the new system. 

Thank you, but next.

Sam

[GreenMachine]

have u check connectivity with meter...u will have 12-13 volts on one side and when u hit the starter button it should switch it to the other side and to  the starter connectiom.....i guess its possible that the relacement is defective....when u hit the start button, try giving the relay a slight hit with the handle of your scewdriver to see if its stuck.....u could also try jumping over the relay with a jumper wire...if u do that use the same gauge wire or something larger to see if u can get battery to the starter and see if it engages and turns the engine...

[olhogrider]

Sounds like you fried the neutral  switch. Do you have  a neutral light? How about pulling the clutch lever? A little vague on how you got the engine to turn over.. Try again.

[singhg5]

So to summarize.  
New relay ( I refuse to call it a solenoid since it is a relay)
No neutral light  - possibly toasty neutral switch wire in the harness and now no starty.
What now?

Sam:

Don't know why the neutral switch wire got burnt.  Do you have any idea what may have done it ?

For testing purpose, connect the neutral switch directly to neutral bulb socket with a new wire that  goes over the bike - without running through the harness at this time -  If it works then you know what to do next.  Just a thought.  

[Ragmas]

Good Idea Singhg5, Will do that this afternoon.  I figure it is possible that something got crushed during installation.  I had to shift the battery around a bit to get things in place.

Sam

[motomataya]

Check your ground cable connections. Somehow it may be trying to ground through the neutral switch, and that wire is not heavy enough???

[Ragmas]

Update. 

So, somehow when I hooked the relay up, it caused a ground feedback through the neutral switch line.  The neutral line in the harness is toast and the neutral switch itself as blown up.  I pulled the switch and the tip of it is gone baby gone.  All that is left is a band of gold, wait that's not right.  All that is left is a charred stump that used to be a neutral safety switch.  Luckily the bike still starts via kicker while I await a new switch.  My dealer said that if the e start relay is hooked up right it should start with the clutch pulled in but it doesn't, perhaps I have some wires backwards.  Perhaps I blew up a new relay.  This relay caomes with an optional 30 amp fuse setup.  When I set it up I followed the instructions for utilizing the fuse, perhaps that caused my exploding neutral safety switch. 

If anyone out there has put this new relay in and has some tips as to how they did it I would be most appreciative.

Well there we are, I got a new relay to make my e start work and now I am down E start and neutral light.

Sam

[t120rbullet]

Is this "new and improved starter relay" a factory/CMW upgrade or a bodge to get a cheap lawnmower relay to work on the bike?

Replacing the starter relay is a simple thing to do. 2 wires to the coil of the relay and the 2 switched wires. Nothing to be done up in the headlight shell at all.
CJ

[GreenMachine]

exactly, that 's the part i don;t understand...

[Ragmas]

This was the replacement sent to me from my dealer.  Nothing at all done in the headlight shell.  That is what i do not understand my self.  I hooked up the relay as per instructions ie. lead from +side of battery to terminal on relay, other terminal to starter motor.  Dipole leads to blade terminals on relay and poof wierd wacky electrical what not. 

Very strange indeed.

[singhg5]

This was the replacement sent to me from my dealer.  Nothing at all done in the headlight shell.  That is what i do not understand my self. 

The mystery deepens !  Just to back track a bit.  What was happening with the motorcycle that prompted to replace the starter relay in the first place ?  Any funny behaviour at that time ?

[Marrtyn]

IF you have had problems starting the bike, and you suspected the relay IT may have in fact been a "DUFF" battery. Just connect your car battery via jump leads. This will prove if it is the relay or the battery.
 I had similar problem and went down the same route, untill advised to do exactly as I have just descibed.
Regards

[Ducati Scotty]

My mechanic syas the stock batteries flake out now wnd then.  Good thing to check.

Scott

[Ragmas]

The mystery deepens !  Just to back track a bit.  What was happening with the motorcycle that prompted to replace the starter relay in the first place ?  Any funny behaviour at that time ?

When I pulled the bike out of storage for spring I had to change the end on the Negative lead to the battery.  The original had broken.  When I hooked the battery back up the starter started spinning.  No matter what I did every time I hhoked it up it spun and kept on spinning.  I guess the relay took a knock in the process of pulling the battery out to suss the problem and then it was fine, but suspect.  Following ScooterBob's advice I disconnected the dipole leads and asked my dealer for a new relay which ordered and sent to me under warranty.  Since this relay is different from stock I had to cut wires in order to install it.  Very wierd shenannigans afoot here.  At this point I am going to take the bike to my dealer and hopefully I will have it back in short order.

On the positive side, it starts and drives no problem, with the kicker that is.  I figure I'll toss it in the back of the truck and driver it on doen to my dealer an hour away on long island here in the near future.

Sam

[GreenMachine]

..When I hooked the battery back up the starter started spinning.  No matter what I did every time I hhoked it up it spun and kept on spinning.  I guess the relay took a knock in the process of pulling the battery out to suss the problem and then it was fine..
not a bad move to take to the dealer...u had your play and it went south. Even with my cars, if its under warrantly I'm going to the dealer...when its no longer under warranty, I'll take a look..

[Sub]

My bike recently didn't start for a different reason, in case people are interested. My starter apparently gets caught in between the poles and applying the start button just causes the solenoid (relay?!) to click. a temporary solution is to whack the starter motor with a screwdriver to get it to move a bit. Dealer is ordering me a new starter motor..

[ScooterBob]

My bike recently didn't start for a different reason, in case people are interested. My starter apparently gets caught in between the poles and applying the start button just causes the solenoid (relay?!) to click. a temporary solution is to whack the starter motor with a screwdriver to get it to move a bit. Dealer is ordering me a new starter motor..

I'm guessing  ......... no. That is a NipponDenso starter motor - not a hand wound Chalmers-Delco from the 30's .... It may BE an internal problem with the starter motor - but stuck "between poles"? Voodoo, I say - VOO-DOO .....  But hey - new and free are good ....

[Sub]

All, I know is after I whacked it per my dealers suggestion she fired right up. this bike IS 10% voodoo

[gashousegorilla]

 Sub, your relay is likely clicking because the hunk of metal inside the relay is getting stuck. It's a common problem when a relay "goes bad". On the older ones , that were not sealed, you could take them apart, clean up the hunk of iron and the inside casing of rust, and you were good to go. All a relay is, is a switch activated by a electro magnet.  Remember science class with the battery, nail rapped with wire and the paper clip?  Well that's basically what a relay is. The paper clip is the hunk of iron inside the casing of the relay.
 When you hit the start button, you are sending a small amount of magic to the coil on top of the relay, ( nail rapped in wire), which turns into a magnit and lifts the hunk of iron,(paper clip) which makes contact, inside the relay, between the battery and the starter motor.  Think you may have a bad relay ?  Simple . Tap it, or something near by, and it may be enough to free up that hunk of iron, it may not take much of a tap either.
Maybe that iron is really stuck in there, and no amount of bashing is doing it?  Like someone said here, connect positive side of battery to positive side of starter in a pinch. Or to be a little safer, when it's acting up. With a multi meter check for juice at the starter when you hit the start button. No Juice? Well it can only come from one place, right? Either a stuck relay, or loose connections.  Free Starters ?   Where can I get me one? 

[Sub]

Sub, your relay is likely clicking because the hunk of metal inside the relay is getting stuck. It's a common problem when a relay "goes bad". On the older ones , that were not sealed, you could take them apart, clean up the hunk of iron and the inside casing of rust, and you were good to go. All a relay is, is a switch activated by a electro magnet.  Remember science class with the battery, nail rapped with wire and the paper clip?  Well that's basically what a relay is. The paper clip is the hunk of iron inside the casing of the relay.
 When you hit the start button, you are sending a small amount of magic to the coil on top of the relay, ( nail rapped in wire), which turns into a magnit and lifts the hunk of iron,(paper clip) which makes contact, inside the relay, between the battery and the starter motor.  Think you may have a bad relay ?  Simple . Tap it, or something near by, and it may be enough to free up that hunk of iron, it may not take much of a tap either.
Maybe that iron is really stuck in there, and no amount of bashing is doing it?  Like someone said here, connect positive side of battery to positive side of starter in a pinch. Or to be a little safer, when it's acting up. With a multi meter check for juice at the starter when you hit the start button. No Juice? Well it can only come from one place, right? Either a stuck relay, or loose connections.  Free Starters ?   Where can I get me one? 

This all makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of tapping from + on batt to the starter - at least I canstart it then. If it does it again, I'll put a meter to the starter motor to see if its getting 12v+. Thanks.

[Ducati Scotty]

I have seen electric motors that get 'frozen' in just the right spot.  Turn them but hand just a little bit and they're off and running.

I've got the same symptoms.  On mine I definitly get a thunk, not a click.  The relay is definitely moving, you can feel it throught the seat.  The contacts may heve too much resistance when it seats but it's moving.

I'm taking it in today to have them look at it.  I can't decide whether it's the battery, relay, or starter.  Maybe it's just time to replace parts starting with the cheapest.

Scottt

[olhogrider]

I have seen electric motors that get 'frozen' in just the right spot.  Turn them but hand just a little bit and they're off and running.

I've got the same symptoms.  On mine I definitly get a thunk, not a click.  The relay is definitely moving, you can feel it throught the seat.  The contacts may heve too much resistance when it seats but it's moving.

I'm taking it in today to have them look at it.  I can't decide whether it's the battery, relay, or starter.  Maybe it's just time to replace parts starting with the cheapest.

Scottt

So why don't you just kick start it? Oh yeah, same reason I don't.

[ScooterBob]

Sub, your relay is likely clicking because the hunk of metal inside the relay is getting stuck. It's a common problem when a relay "goes bad". On the older ones , that were not sealed, you could take them apart, clean up the hunk of iron and the inside casing of rust, and you were good to go. All a relay is, is a switch activated by a electro magnet.  Remember science class with the battery, nail rapped with wire and the paper clip?  Well that's basically what a relay is. The paper clip is the hunk of iron inside the casing of the relay.
 When you hit the start button, you are sending a small amount of magic to the coil on top of the relay, ( nail rapped in wire), which turns into a magnit and lifts the hunk of iron,(paper clip) which makes contact, inside the relay, between the battery and the starter motor.  Think you may have a bad relay ?  Simple . Tap it, or something near by, and it may be enough to free up that hunk of iron, it may not take much of a tap either.
Maybe that iron is really stuck in there, and no amount of bashing is doing it?  Like someone said here, connect positive side of battery to positive side of starter in a pinch. Or to be a little safer, when it's acting up. With a multi meter check for juice at the starter when you hit the start button. No Juice? Well it can only come from one place, right? Either a stuck relay, or loose connections.  Free Starters ?   Where can I get me one? 

Roses are red .......
Violets are blue ........
Damn you're good .......

  ...... 

[Sub]

Apparently bad starter motors are historically a common problem on Enfields. When I spoke to my Enfield dealer he said "the oem starters are crap" and he has been replacing them with Honda starters, which I assume are a direct fit, and a lot more reliable. I may go that route if the second one gives me trouble.

[Ducati Scotty]

Any info on exactly which Honda starter fits would be appreciated.

Scott

[Sub]

I'll try and find out..

[Ducati Scotty]

So why don't you just kick start it? Oh yeah, same reason I don't.

Go ahead, just rub my nose in it!

[t120rbullet]

Apparently bad starter motors are historically a common problem on Enfields.

Not,
If you go and do a search both here and the Yahoo group for bad starter motors you'll find very few if any at all. And we all know that 99.9 % of the bad shows up on these groups.
Relays by the ton, Sprags by the ton, toothless gears, bad wiring and flat battery's  but not the starter motor itself.

When you start looking for the magic Honda starter motor that fits an Enfield you'll probably find that it's the same ND motor that Enfield is using. When they (REM) started the design stage of the ES back in the late 90s early 00s they were asking for company's to submit motors for trial from all around the world. They went with an off the shelf ND motor that was already time tested in the Japanese market and designed the ES around that. It's probably the only thing that is worth a poop in the whole ES setup. 
Just my 2 cents,
CJ

[gashousegorilla]

Apparently bad starter motors are historically a common problem on Enfields. When I spoke to my Enfield dealer he said "the oem starters are crap" and he has been replacing them with Honda starters, which I assume are a direct fit, and a lot more reliable. I may go that route if the second one gives me trouble.

I'm guessing  ......... no. That is a NipponDenso starter motor - not a hand wound Chalmers-Delco from the 30's .... It may BE an internal problem with the starter motor - but stuck "between poles"? Voodoo, I say - VOO-DOO .....   But hey - new and free are good ....

Well, all the old Honda's I've worked on, the ones that were laying out in the weather for like 15-20 years, Have had NipponDenso starters in them. Never had to replace one of them. Brushes? yeah. The motors, no. Maybe that's why RE is using them?.. Replacement Honda starter? It's in there  already.

[Ducati Scotty]

My mechanic works on a lot of bikes with ND starters.  He says hardly any ever go bad and if they do, they do it when the bike is still shiny new with very low miles.

Scott

[Sub]

Just to clarify, its not enfield that made the decision to use the honda starters as replacements (you'll get the same part if you get a replacement from RE), it was my local dealer. He got sick of replacing them I guess.

[Ducati Scotty]

Yeah, I got that.  Thanks

[gashousegorilla]

 Got Ya ...?   Sooo... It's the specific ND (Honda-ish) starter there putting in the C-5, that your dealer was having an issue with, And he found another ND (Honda-ish) that would fit?.....  I am a bit slow 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk 

[ToesNose]

Love that movie 

"I told them we already had one"   

[Desi Bike]

Oh MG!!!.... did we just discover the one other thing we all have in common, other than the love of  RE?


Get the comfy chair!!!!!       

[GreenMachine]

yeah my favorite : the meaning o life"...

[gashousegorilla]

Oh MG!!!.... did we just discover the one other thing we all have in common, other than the love of  RE?


Get the comfy chair!!!!!       

  OH Boy, Don't get us started  ....Or I shall smite thee ...   YO !....  r80rt.....ScooterBob !